northeaster Many people, currently dubbed "millennials," seem to think that they will never age and that "old people" have always been in that state! There are about 75 million "boomers," (those so named millennials of the 1960's) who are now retiring, controlling about 75% of the wealth of the nation and busy traveling to their kids, grandchildren and just having fun spending their hard earned money. If,when you are boarding a long distance train, you would look around you, you would see the younger folks hauling lots of baggage and even having bicycles stored in those new baggage cars (which Amtrak designed to have bicycle storage racks because of demand). It is not the boomers hauling bikes. You may also notice many older people traveling fairly light, because after years of living, most have learned to travel practically with loads they can handle and have learned that Amtrak sleepers tend not to have much room for bags in the compartments. As the Millennials age and acquire "pre existing conditions," they will perhaps come to appreciate how their bodies do not bend so easily or find that their diets now call for regular meals at certain times rather than a gobbled down hot dog or vegie smoothie. Perhaps, some have been in one of our many military actions and can no longer leap over buildings in a single bound and therefore find 12 hours in a bus seat or 3 hours in 18 inches of plane seat to be basically unbearable. We all, if we are lucky, will get old, lose degrees of physical ablities and have new appreciation for civilized travel. It is not a longing for the good old days, today's trains can be as modern and fast as possible and still be a preferred means of travel as an option suitable for a large share of the population. You have only to look at a US Census Bureau population projection "pyramid" for the year 2050 to realize that there is a massive market coming down the track for a totally different US population than what is now. Unlike certain "business models" which call for a profit from every minute segment of the business, other models call for the effective use of having certain segments offered to customers at a loss, being in fact, another form of advertising to attract said customers: thus the dining car and the baggage car. Incompetent and/or lazy senior management always blames someone else for poor performance.
Many people, currently dubbed "millennials," seem to think that they will never age and that "old people" have always been in that state! There are about 75 million "boomers," (those so named millennials of the 1960's) who are now retiring, controlling about 75% of the wealth of the nation and busy traveling to their kids, grandchildren and just having fun spending their hard earned money. If,when you are boarding a long distance train, you would look around you, you would see the younger folks hauling lots of baggage and even having bicycles stored in those new baggage cars (which Amtrak designed to have bicycle storage racks because of demand). It is not the boomers hauling bikes. You may also notice many older people traveling fairly light, because after years of living, most have learned to travel practically with loads they can handle and have learned that Amtrak sleepers tend not to have much room for bags in the compartments.
As the Millennials age and acquire "pre existing conditions," they will perhaps come to appreciate how their bodies do not bend so easily or find that their diets now call for regular meals at certain times rather than a gobbled down hot dog or vegie smoothie. Perhaps, some have been in one of our many military actions and can no longer leap over buildings in a single bound and therefore find 12 hours in a bus seat or 3 hours in 18 inches of plane seat to be basically unbearable.
We all, if we are lucky, will get old, lose degrees of physical ablities and have new appreciation for civilized travel. It is not a longing for the good old days, today's trains can be as modern and fast as possible and still be a preferred means of travel as an option suitable for a large share of the population. You have only to look at a US Census Bureau population projection "pyramid" for the year 2050 to realize that there is a massive market coming down the track for a totally different US population than what is now. Unlike certain "business models" which call for a profit from every minute segment of the business, other models call for the effective use of having certain segments offered to customers at a loss, being in fact, another form of advertising to attract said customers: thus the dining car and the baggage car. Incompetent and/or lazy senior management always blames someone else for poor performance.
On my last trip, I found it necessary to twice spend a large part of a day on buses, with one stop for a meal each day, and was cramped for leg room. There is now bus service only twice a day between the two cities--and one is overnight (shudder)--and both require a change in each direction; fifty years ago, there were several schedules each day with through service. The only improvement I can name is the presence of restrooms on the buses.
edited for clarity-jbd
Johnny
There is one New Jersey restoration group that has two ex EL-diners, one almost completely restored, ex-Lackawanna, and one in restorable condition, ex-Erie. They plan to use them on fan-trips and/or museum dinner-train operations, one place where the traditional dining car still has a place. There are lots of full dining cars operated on tourist trains throughout North America, both with on-board food preparation as traditional and food brought onboard just before departure.
Privatising dining cars for Amtrak LD and corridor operations makers zero sense, since you loose economies of scale and make the costs of doing business even greater with very little additional incentive for the customer to pay the high prices to make the business profitable.
I have been mainaining now for years that the way out of the food service economics quandry is adoption of the Acela type meal service nationwide, with off-train food initial preparation done by Skysheffs or some national restaurant chain where further economies of scale in purchasing and preparation of food can be realized.
Funny, I am no time traveler, as I am still approaching my second decade of work, but when I describe to a friend a full diner as was around even in a portion of the Claytor years and a Bedroom accomodation, this meets with interest as to how much a trip costs, in others words conversion thinking toward a purchase. This is amongst professionals, who you know purchase transportation.
Descriptions of 10 hour trips in a coach seat to meet the average trip lengths of Amtrak travelers along with cafe type foods, not so much. Sometimes the question in reply is something like can't you eat like on a resturaunt on board.
It seems what is going on is that Amtrak is picking the easier crowd to sell the product to for the most money, which is now largely baby boomers, but the underlying consumer preference does not seem to change for lower aged individuals. Imagine what some advertising could do. Also, trains have to have volumes above about 200 passengers a mile to start covering costs and the easiest way to get there without large infrastructure investment is simply a longer route with more overlapping city pairs.
As to private operation, yes their would be labor hurdles. But the FAST act actually had provisions for experiments in locally sourced (fresh) food to be tried, which is another preference amongst youngish or mid-age professionals.
Perhaps, Amtrak could provide the car and let a contract staff board with almost ready to be plated food in a Cambro. NC has private food contractors on its trains.
CMStPnP I don't think so. And in fact no longer are dining cars held by private car owners as they cannot meet the cost of upkeep via renting them out for charters. Once upon a time via the American Association of Private Railway Car Owners (AAPRCO) website there was a dining car available for lease or charter. No longer. Business cars, Dome Cars, and Sleepers with a lounge area are what is Chartered and brings in the fees. Even fan groups like "Friends of 261" are not interested in dining cars for their collection, instead they go with combining the dining car with another car like the Super Dome car. Union Pacific Business Fleet, BNSF Business Fleet, etc...........no dining cars. BTW, you can still find old Lunch Counter Cars and Dining Cars languishing in the surplus passenger car market but nobody wants to buy and use them "as is", most folks that are interested in buying them would buy them with the intent to convert to something else. Me thinks dining cars are too specialized and their time has passed. The best you can hope for in this modern era is a Cafe Car. Hence when I make a proposal for a new passenger train, I try to dump the dining car.............which doesn't go over well in these nostalgic based forums (every train running that is Long Distance MUST HAVE a Full Service Diner, Sleeping Car and of course a Baggage Car according to a lot of the readership here)..........it is a little silly to hold onto that given what has happened on the private sector side. Also, another I forgot to mention, Rocky Mountaineer Railtours. Their dining car area is a much condensed area underneath their Ultra Dome cars........again not a seperate stand alone dining car if it can be helped or avoided. And lo and behold, no sleeping car on Rocky Mountaineer. Amtrak business trains don't carry a diner in almost every case I have seen either, they either have the meals catered (sometimes box lunches) or use a cafe car. So I am pretty sure Amtrak management is fully aware of the costs.
I don't think so.
And in fact no longer are dining cars held by private car owners as they cannot meet the cost of upkeep via renting them out for charters. Once upon a time via the American Association of Private Railway Car Owners (AAPRCO) website there was a dining car available for lease or charter. No longer. Business cars, Dome Cars, and Sleepers with a lounge area are what is Chartered and brings in the fees. Even fan groups like "Friends of 261" are not interested in dining cars for their collection, instead they go with combining the dining car with another car like the Super Dome car. Union Pacific Business Fleet, BNSF Business Fleet, etc...........no dining cars. BTW, you can still find old Lunch Counter Cars and Dining Cars languishing in the surplus passenger car market but nobody wants to buy and use them "as is", most folks that are interested in buying them would buy them with the intent to convert to something else.
Me thinks dining cars are too specialized and their time has passed. The best you can hope for in this modern era is a Cafe Car. Hence when I make a proposal for a new passenger train, I try to dump the dining car.............which doesn't go over well in these nostalgic based forums (every train running that is Long Distance MUST HAVE a Full Service Diner, Sleeping Car and of course a Baggage Car according to a lot of the readership here)..........it is a little silly to hold onto that given what has happened on the private sector side.
Also, another I forgot to mention, Rocky Mountaineer Railtours. Their dining car area is a much condensed area underneath their Ultra Dome cars........again not a seperate stand alone dining car if it can be helped or avoided. And lo and behold, no sleeping car on Rocky Mountaineer.
Amtrak business trains don't carry a diner in almost every case I have seen either, they either have the meals catered (sometimes box lunches) or use a cafe car. So I am pretty sure Amtrak management is fully aware of the costs.
Although I totally agree, you are preaching on here (as you said) to a tone-deaf choir of time travelers. The sooner Amtrak stops playing to the small and declining niche of folks who demand baggage cars (for their steamer trunks?), sleeping cars and full service diners on LD trains at 1950-60s prices, the better off passenger train service in the US will be.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
While it maybe possible, I am not sure how profitable. First issue would be the unions. The second the demand and level of service and lastly the pricing.
I don't think the railroads made as any money on their diners. Dining service often was the first thing to go when the railroads tried to reduce losses.
A fellow Amtrak rider and I were recently discussing the state of dining car standardized meals/selections, etc. The Silver Star diner has been dropped. The question was raised, "would Amtrak ever be able to lease the dining cars to private chefs?" Almost like the days of Fred Harvey and/or the Pullman Co. Is it even possible? Current Amtrak dining car staff could be given the first chance to hire on.
Could the result be more varied selections, daily chef specials, overall better quality at more reasonable prices? Overall lowered costs to Amtrak?
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