schlimm josephr33 I've noticed the Lakeshore Limited is now running with one locomotive. While it makes for a clean appearance to the train, I can't help but wonder how Amtrak deals with potential breakdowns as well as maintaining track speed with a train that has normally had two locomotives. Does anyone know what considerations Amtrak makes when assigning locomotives to trains? How many cars does the LSL usually have? Fewer now? Maybe a newer, more powerful locomotive now?
josephr33 I've noticed the Lakeshore Limited is now running with one locomotive. While it makes for a clean appearance to the train, I can't help but wonder how Amtrak deals with potential breakdowns as well as maintaining track speed with a train that has normally had two locomotives. Does anyone know what considerations Amtrak makes when assigning locomotives to trains?
I've noticed the Lakeshore Limited is now running with one locomotive. While it makes for a clean appearance to the train, I can't help but wonder how Amtrak deals with potential breakdowns as well as maintaining track speed with a train that has normally had two locomotives. Does anyone know what considerations Amtrak makes when assigning locomotives to trains?
How many cars does the LSL usually have? Fewer now? Maybe a newer, more powerful locomotive now?
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
The bottom line is on-time performance. Care to comment?
Not the only factor, of course.
Perhaps this explains the need for two units, at least when using P42s.
The P42DC (GENESIS Series I)[13] is the successor model to the P40DC. It has an engine output of 4,250 horsepower(3,170 kW) at 1047 rpm, or 3,550 horsepower (2,650 kW) when running in HEP mode (900 rpm) with a 0 kW HEP load. Traction horsepower in HEP mode decreases to a bare minimum of 2,525 horsepower (1,880 kW) when providing the full 800 kW HEP load to the train. [from Wiki]
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
A P42 will eventually reach 79 mph with 20+ cars on the level. Acceleration is the only problem.
You've seen pics of the 12-car Super Chief pulled by 4500 hp-- wonder how often SFe gave it that.
As a somewhat frequent Lake Shore rider from/to Syracuse/Chicago, for about 14 years, it has been nice to see her get improvements with resulting better performance. My last trip was two weeks ago, single baggage car and single engine. I would guess the baggage is transferred from the Boston shuttle to the single car at Albany. I am also guessing (someone can correct this) that when two engines are in use, both can deliver via their traction motors acceleration and dynamic braking thereby making for faster running speed out of stations/signals. It seemed to me that on the last trip with the single engine the train was a bit slower on acceleration but was fine cruising. Maybe when there is snow/ice on the tracks this will become a more serious problem?
For whatever reason dating back to F40PH days the Lake Shore's Chicago-Albany locomotives continued on to Boston, with the New York section getting a dual-mode FL9 or P32AC-DM between Albany and New York. During the rebuilding of Albany-Renssalaer the Boston section has been running as a Boston-Albany shuttle, so the P42 (or P42s) get turned at ALB. Except for West Albany Hill, for which a single P42 has enough oomph, the Chicago-Albany route is pretty flat. NS and CSX seem to be OK with single unit operation.
schlimm Electroliner 1935 schlimm on Metra F 40s have only 3300 hp and haul 8 bi-levels that carry many passengers The BNSF Metra rush hour trains that run express to Downers Grove and Naperville have eleven cars and are full. Routinely cruise at 70 mph and the cars are heated/cooled with the HEP. True, the racetrack has little grade issues but the F40's do a great job. I love watching them come through Fairview where the locals flip (cross from track 1 to track 3) after their Fairview stop and return to Chicago, The Naperville Express cruises through at 70 mph on track 2, followed four minutes later by the Downers Grove Express that slows to 45 mph to cross from track 2 to 1 to make its first stop at Downers Grove. And when Amtrak 4 or 6 is late and gets into the rush hour, I've watched Ft Worth get them through the mix. Amtrak EB on track 2 and the Naperville Express WB on track 2 and the xpress slows while Amtrak crosses to track 3 and continues to Chicago while the Express continues to Naperville loosing about one minute. The 11 Metra bi-levels sounds like at least as big a load as the 11 cars (Viewliner I or IIs or Horizons or Heritage) on the LSL. So is the previous use of two engines on the LSL to provide HEP or is it a function of unreliablility (for whatever causes)?
Electroliner 1935 schlimm on Metra F 40s have only 3300 hp and haul 8 bi-levels that carry many passengers The BNSF Metra rush hour trains that run express to Downers Grove and Naperville have eleven cars and are full. Routinely cruise at 70 mph and the cars are heated/cooled with the HEP. True, the racetrack has little grade issues but the F40's do a great job. I love watching them come through Fairview where the locals flip (cross from track 1 to track 3) after their Fairview stop and return to Chicago, The Naperville Express cruises through at 70 mph on track 2, followed four minutes later by the Downers Grove Express that slows to 45 mph to cross from track 2 to 1 to make its first stop at Downers Grove. And when Amtrak 4 or 6 is late and gets into the rush hour, I've watched Ft Worth get them through the mix. Amtrak EB on track 2 and the Naperville Express WB on track 2 and the xpress slows while Amtrak crosses to track 3 and continues to Chicago while the Express continues to Naperville loosing about one minute.
schlimm on Metra F 40s have only 3300 hp and haul 8 bi-levels that carry many passengers
The BNSF Metra rush hour trains that run express to Downers Grove and Naperville have eleven cars and are full. Routinely cruise at 70 mph and the cars are heated/cooled with the HEP. True, the racetrack has little grade issues but the F40's do a great job.
I love watching them come through Fairview where the locals flip (cross from track 1 to track 3) after their Fairview stop and return to Chicago, The Naperville Express cruises through at 70 mph on track 2, followed four minutes later by the Downers Grove Express that slows to 45 mph to cross from track 2 to 1 to make its first stop at Downers Grove. And when Amtrak 4 or 6 is late and gets into the rush hour, I've watched Ft Worth get them through the mix. Amtrak EB on track 2 and the Naperville Express WB on track 2 and the xpress slows while Amtrak crosses to track 3 and continues to Chicago while the Express continues to Naperville loosing about one minute.
The 11 Metra bi-levels sounds like at least as big a load as the 11 cars (Viewliner I or IIs or Horizons or Heritage) on the LSL.
So is the previous use of two engines on the LSL to provide HEP or is it a function of unreliablility (for whatever causes)?
Tradition?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
schlimm Buslist schlimm on Metra F 40s have only 3300 hp and haul 8 bi-levels that carry many passengers. on an essentially flat railroad, remember a 1% grade increases resistance by about 300%, so you couldn't expect similar performance everywhere. The LSL largely runs on the "Water Level Route" NYP-CUS. And on Metra, there are some gradients, though pretty minor.
Buslist schlimm on Metra F 40s have only 3300 hp and haul 8 bi-levels that carry many passengers. on an essentially flat railroad, remember a 1% grade increases resistance by about 300%, so you couldn't expect similar performance everywhere.
schlimm on Metra F 40s have only 3300 hp and haul 8 bi-levels that carry many passengers.
on Metra F 40s have only 3300 hp and haul 8 bi-levels that carry many passengers.
on an essentially flat railroad, remember a 1% grade increases resistance by about 300%, so you couldn't expect similar performance everywhere.
The LSL largely runs on the "Water Level Route" NYP-CUS. And on Metra, there are some gradients, though pretty minor.
Steepest grade from Rensselaer to Chicago is West Albany hill. It's bit more than 1% westbound, if I remember right. Westbound, I think it's 0.7% getting away from Lake Erie from Buffalo to Batavia.
schlimmon Metra F 40s have only 3300 hp and haul 8 bi-levels that carry many passengers
Ya but!
Electroliner 1935 schlimm Typical consist is: NYC - 1 baggage, 4 coach, 1 diner, 2 viewliner sleepers; (7) + BOS 1 coach, 1 viewliner sleeper, 1 lounge, 1 baggage. (4) Total of 11 cars. Where are you seeing the LSL, It normally used one unit on each section East of Albany/Rensselaer and two west thereof.
schlimm
Typical consist is:
NYC - 1 baggage, 4 coach, 1 diner, 2 viewliner sleepers; (7) +
BOS 1 coach, 1 viewliner sleeper, 1 lounge, 1 baggage. (4)
Total of 11 cars.
Where are you seeing the LSL, It normally used one unit on each section East of Albany/Rensselaer and two west thereof.
Does the LSL have two baggage cars - Boston and New York -from Albany to Chicago? Or is the baggage from Boston transfered to the New York to Chicago baggage car?
I have looked into the baggage car on the Sunset Limited when it is in El Paso. On a busy day the baggage or like stuff may take up 1/4 of the car. It is hard to believe that Amtrak could justify two baggage cars on the LSL.
on Metra F 40s have only 3300 hp and haul 8 bi-levels that carry many passengers. Only some have a separate engine for HEP.
n012944 schlimm Times change. Amtrak P-42 diesels are 4200 hp; E-8s were 2250 hp; While true, those figures only tell part of the story. A single P42 will not be providing anywhere near 4200 hp for traction. The HEP generator requires quite a bit of power, and it varies according to load. Horsepower for traction is as low as 2500 hp with a full HEP load. Not really all that much more than an E8.
schlimm Times change. Amtrak P-42 diesels are 4200 hp; E-8s were 2250 hp;
Times change. Amtrak P-42 diesels are 4200 hp; E-8s were 2250 hp;
While true, those figures only tell part of the story. A single P42 will not be providing anywhere near 4200 hp for traction. The HEP generator requires quite a bit of power, and it varies according to load. Horsepower for traction is as low as 2500 hp with a full HEP load. Not really all that much more than an E8.
You need all that extra power for passengers to recharge their laptops and cellphones:)
An "expensive model collector"
schlimmHow many cars does the LSL usually have? Fewer now? Maybe a newer, more powerful locomotive now?
CSSHEGEWISCHMost of the Chicago suburban operations maintained a pretty good record of reliability and punctuality with single E's or F's on trains of up to eight gallery coaches.
One evening, I came home from work on a BNSF Metra train and got off at Belmont. An inbound scoot was sitting in the station and not moving. I watched for a while and finally crossed over and inquired as to the issue. Turned out that the unit had been in dynamic braking for its station stop and would not come out and load to contine its trip eastward. It had to wait for the next (scheduled one hour later) scoot to push it into the city. And as a side, I learned that they had to operate whith the engineer in the west cab car to operate the throttle while the lead cab car engineer operated the brakes as the MU conections (so I was told and observed) did not mate. Cab car at buffer level, Diesel nose at a higher level. I had a similar occurance about thiry years before on a C&NW west line trip into Chicago where my train had to wait for a later train to push us in. When it happens, it is no fun but you are not hundreds of miles from help.
BaltACDWhen locomotives fail - it is not always the prime mover that gives up the ghost - electrical issues do in more locomotives than mechanical issues - from my 26 years of observation as a Chief Dispatcher.
26 years is after the end of the E unit era. Since then almost all locomotives are single prime mover. In general, reliability has increased greatly. There is also real time telemetry where units are monitored real time and can be diagnosed from the HQ. Sounds good but I do not know what the statistics show for failures. Any one know how GE's & Progress units Mean time between failures is?
Dragoman dakotafred Assuming a single unit can provide the necessary HP, the point is and always has been: What if it fails? Covering that remote possibility is a poor excuse for running fuel through a redundant unit day after day. We never heard of it in steam days. But in steam days, weren't there service facilities and helpers to be found every hundred or so miles?
dakotafred Assuming a single unit can provide the necessary HP, the point is and always has been: What if it fails? Covering that remote possibility is a poor excuse for running fuel through a redundant unit day after day. We never heard of it in steam days.
Assuming a single unit can provide the necessary HP, the point is and always has been: What if it fails?
Covering that remote possibility is a poor excuse for running fuel through a redundant unit day after day. We never heard of it in steam days.
But in steam days, weren't there service facilities and helpers to be found every hundred or so miles?
Certainly, sometimes every 50 miles or even less, depending on the 'road and traffic density. It was also a policy to have locomotives stationed along the way as "protection power," that is to be ready to rescue a train stranded due to engine failure.
Times change. Amtrak P-42 diesels are 4200 hp; E-8s were 2250 hp; F-7s only 1500 hp. One would think one engine would suffice on most Amtrak trains, which are usually shorter than most passenger trains in the 50s-60s. So what gives?
Most of the Chicago suburban operations maintained a pretty good record of reliability and punctuality with single E's or F's on trains of up to eight gallery coaches.
Of courfse, your points are valid. And I do remember the Southerner or the Tennesian coming into Charlottesseville Unions Station with a Green and Goldl Pacific ahead of the E-6. Not rouotine by any means, but it did occur. Some statistics would help. How did the Rock fair with itws single TA's?
Don't charge your cell phone, you're making the train late lol. Wonder how late that Coast Starlight with one engine was into LA.
Electroliner 1935 daveklepper But remember Dave, an E unit had two prime movers and PRR's also had two steam generators so they could limp along if one died.
daveklepper But remember Dave, an E unit had two prime movers and PRR's also had two steam generators so they could limp along if one died.
When locomotives fail - it is not always the prime mover that gives up the ghost - electrical issues do in more locomotives than mechanical issues - from my 26 years of observation as a Chief Dispatcher.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
daveklepperLots of early streamliners had only one unit up front,
But remember Dave, an E unit had two prime movers and PRR's also had two steam generators so they could limp along if one died.
daveklepperLots of early streamliners had only one unit up front, or being an articulated train, were permanently attached ot only one.
But let's not forget that lots of early streamliners had chain falls over the engines and riding maintainers who could and did, for example, change out power assemblies on the road, sometimes with the train moving at speed. Preston Cook has some fascinating stories about this, and I'm sure there are still others around who can tell many a tale about how much, and how often, the magic had to be wielded.
If we had this level ... or let's settle for Metroliner level, for an earlier Amtrak experience ... it might be possible to relieve some of the engine failures. We need to be very careful to differentiate 'failures' of propulsion from failures of HEP, too, as even the early streamliners with trainlined power used dedicated generation, not a tap from the traction alternator...
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