Is this a serious idea? That Amtrak stop each of its LD trains for 2 to 3 hours in order that (former) dining car patrons can eat at at nearby restaurant? C'mon, really?
What if I want breakfast and lunch? Does the train stop twice, each time for 2 to 3 hours? What about passengers who don't want to eat or carry their own food? Do they have to wait 2 to 3 hours several times a day, while other passengers disembark and, what? walk to a nearby establishment? In all kinds of weather? Is the local restaurant supposed to have enough staff on hand for the 2 to 3 hours the passengers will be there? I don't think many cooks and servers will want to work only that few hours. What about weekends? Must the restaurant be open on Sundays? Sunday mornings? Who gets sued if Mrs. Jones slips and falls on her way to the restaurant? Will Kosher meals be found in North Dakota or Arkansas? What provisions will be made for handicapped passengers?
Yes, I know CMStPnP was being sarcastic, but I get nervous just reading such an idea! And as far as trying to find a food service to operate under Amtrak's rules and still make a profit, good luck with that!
It seems to me that no matter which way you look at it, dining cars on LD trains make sense. What's needed is an Amtrak management that has convictions and will fight aggressively and intelligently for those convictions.
Everyone realizes that politicians know as much about running trains as they do about running schools or agricultual policy. Bullies such as Cong. Mica and his ilk need to be stood up to, and their ridiculous ideas exposed for what they are.
CMSTP&P:
I knew you were being snarky. So was I, at least in my first paragraph.
Carl Fowler
CMStPnP CSSHEGEWISCH I can't envision any firm wanting to bid on a dining-car contract with an arrangement as proposed by CMStP&P. The upfront costs look like they would be pretty steep (dining cars, cafeterias in stations, etc.) and the potential clientele is quite small. An arrangement as proposed might also require re-negotiation of existing labor contracts. Then dump the dining car service altogether, keep a snack car and have the LD train stop for 2-3 hours once a day (maybe twice a day) so a full service meal can be had at or near a major Amtrak station. Amtrak could distribute vouchers, possibly make reservations prior to train arrival and ask for a commission back from the restaurants involved. Another alternative and since Amtrak is no longer interested in LD Train average speed or timekeeping of any sort it seems........probably feasible time wise.
CSSHEGEWISCH I can't envision any firm wanting to bid on a dining-car contract with an arrangement as proposed by CMStP&P. The upfront costs look like they would be pretty steep (dining cars, cafeterias in stations, etc.) and the potential clientele is quite small. An arrangement as proposed might also require re-negotiation of existing labor contracts.
I can't envision any firm wanting to bid on a dining-car contract with an arrangement as proposed by CMStP&P. The upfront costs look like they would be pretty steep (dining cars, cafeterias in stations, etc.) and the potential clientele is quite small. An arrangement as proposed might also require re-negotiation of existing labor contracts.
Then dump the dining car service altogether, keep a snack car and have the LD train stop for 2-3 hours once a day (maybe twice a day) so a full service meal can be had at or near a major Amtrak station. Amtrak could distribute vouchers, possibly make reservations prior to train arrival and ask for a commission back from the restaurants involved. Another alternative and since Amtrak is no longer interested in LD Train average speed or timekeeping of any sort it seems........probably feasible time wise.
Not feasible on a track occupancy basis unless Amtrack would build it's own sidings where FW&R would take place; carriers value their track space. Could the FW&R be extended to 36 hours on the ticket like it was for livestock by executing the proper paragraph of the Bill of Lading
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Railvt Great idea--but wait--it would require Amtrak to provide enough staff to set up the canopy and enough food to sell. Couldn't do that! I actually used the Southern's "Order a Sandwich/Fried Chicken" service twice. The food varied by where it was ordered (and I presume who prepared it), but it was alot fresher than what I might have brought from home. I've also "enjoyed" Subway and KFC meals ordered enroute (admitedly by Amtrak staff without consulting those wanting to eat) on Amtrak several times when HEP failures knocked out cooking on-board. I freely admit this entire discussion seems sad, but the threat posed by the combination of Libertarian fanatiscism from Congressman like John Mica and cowardise in standing up to them from Amtrak makes a food-service collapse not at all inconceiveable. The post-May 1 catered experiment on the SILVER STAR will be interesting to watch. The sad thing is that Amtrak long-ago proved on the ACELA EXPRESS in First Class and on the CARDINAL diner-lite that done-right (with adequate staff and served in a proper way) catered/reheated food can be quite good--but trying to make one employee prep/heat/plate/serve hot entrees with 150 people waiting in line for sandwiches, snacks and booze as well just won't/can't work. But sadly that appears to be what the Boardman plan is for "improving" things on the SILVER STAR. I will be very happy to be wrong on this! Carl Fowler
Great idea--but wait--it would require Amtrak to provide enough staff to set up the canopy and enough food to sell. Couldn't do that!
I actually used the Southern's "Order a Sandwich/Fried Chicken" service twice. The food varied by where it was ordered (and I presume who prepared it), but it was alot fresher than what I might have brought from home. I've also "enjoyed" Subway and KFC meals ordered enroute (admitedly by Amtrak staff without consulting those wanting to eat) on Amtrak several times when HEP failures knocked out cooking on-board.
I freely admit this entire discussion seems sad, but the threat posed by the combination of Libertarian fanatiscism from Congressman like John Mica and cowardise in standing up to them from Amtrak makes a food-service collapse not at all inconceiveable.
The post-May 1 catered experiment on the SILVER STAR will be interesting to watch. The sad thing is that Amtrak long-ago proved on the ACELA EXPRESS in First Class and on the CARDINAL diner-lite that done-right (with adequate staff and served in a proper way) catered/reheated food can be quite good--but trying to make one employee prep/heat/plate/serve hot entrees with 150 people waiting in line for sandwiches, snacks and booze as well just won't/can't work. But sadly that appears to be what the Boardman plan is for "improving" things on the SILVER STAR. I will be very happy to be wrong on this!
I was being sarcastic in the previous post.
Amtrak's deficit producing dining car service can only be fixed with think outside of the box ideas. My feeling is the onboard dining car on Long Distance trains will always loose money because the ridership on those same trains is not enough to support it financially. You could close that revenue gap by increasing the average ticket in the dining car but your never going to meet both the fixed and labor costs of operating the dining car without substantially more people riding the train long distance.
So the only way I know of spinning off the dining car service to a private operator is make it part of a package deal where the proprietor operating the dining car service also gets space in major Amtrak depots for selling food as a vendor and is allowed to sell food packages or cater outside the immediate Depot Marketing area. If Amtrak were to bundle all that up as one package, maybe then the LD dining car can be preserved. Without someway of spreading the costs over a larger operating food business.........it's just going to continue to lose money with the few patrons it has.
If I were Amtrak I would exit the dining car business altogether and sell it to a competent operator that perhaps uses a hybrid Fred Harvey / Pullman model. Pays for the cars to be attached to Amtrak trains and operates food service as a larger package thats profitable as outlined above owning eateries in every major Amtrak owned and operated station to offset the dining car operation losses. On very short distance runs were a dining car was not feasible (like Chicago to Milwaukee) that same vendor would have exclusive right to have distributed on the trains discount vouchers to eat in their station venue at either the destination or departure point. I would definitely sell the dining cars, the commissaries, and transition the employees that wanted to transfer to the private company and just exit the business altogether.
I think that might work as an alternative and if competently run, everyone would be happier. Congress, Amtrak, Amtrak's Passengers, etc.
I think on the Superliner Diners they should have one of those lift up canopy type flaps on the first level so they can serve clients on the platform if it is one of those 20 minute station stops.........plus they need one of those "kiddie music" generators like ice cream trucks have that they can play as the train is rolling to a stop in the station vs. ringing the locomotive bell. That should increase dining car sales.
Formal dining cars on Indian trains are uncommon. Instead many trains have had on-board kitchens, with food-brought back to rooms/seats. Other services provide food loaded at select stations, based on orders forwarded by train crews. The Southern RY used to do this on trains like the "Royal Palm" in the 1960s after their diners were withdrawn, but only a very limited sandwich/fried chicken sort of menu was offered.
A great expansion of this offer to include the possibility of meals being provided at over 400 stations across India for on-board App/Internet ordering and enroute loading/immediate service on trains, has just been announced. The story is at http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/railways/e-catering-service-extended-to-408-major-railway-stations/articleshow/51397782.cms Many catering firms are involved and food choices depend on route and train. More is on-line from the Indian Railways at http://www.ecatering.co.in/
As a pasionate supporter of diner service I absolutely do not want to see this as a replacement of traditional food service on US trains (and I can see real on-board sanitation issues if Amtrak passengers and crew failed to clean-up after such meals were consumed, if they became the only food option), but there may be something here that could, for example, relieve Amtrak of the need for providing the staff for complete on-board food preparation, while still allowing entrees to be served fresh and hot. A diner could still be the venue.
Credible rumors out of Amtrak suggest that begining in May some sort of "catered entrees" will be added to the SILVER STAR for service from the overwhelmed cafe car, but apparently with no advanced way to gauge demand for specific items and with no added staff. If typical Amtrak/Boardman practices follow, this will not do much to relieve the terrible food-service situation on that train. Indeed a better main-course offering without added tables and staff could make things even worse on 91/92.
Already lines for food at dinner on the SILVER STAR frequently stretch for multiple cars back from the cafe counter. If only one man has to add entree preparation/heating/plating to his already impossible sandwich-sales dilemna (and if Amtrak as usually is the case understocks the new entrees) the situation will only get worse.
As noted, apparently the Boardman plan is to add no staff or added table space to the SILVER STAR. I suppose the sleeper attendants could (should?) handle prepping the new entrees for their passengers, but there will be only so much room in the cafe car and already Amtrak has proven completely unable to stock the Amfleet II cafe cars for a 31 hour, five meal run with even the existing sandwich menu. One advantage of the Indian system is that food is prepared "shoreside" on the day, to orders received directly from passengers the train and thus there is no problem for on-board stocking and storage.
The further beauty of the Indian idea is that the orders that are loaded enroute are already hot, plated and ready for service at seat or in a sleeper room. Of course they could also be served (especially to sleeper passengers) in a table-car (diner) setting, as long as provision was made to staff clean-up after on-board consumption.
In some form this might not only be a way to save a modicum of decent service on trains like the SILVER STAR, but also to add such an option to already diner-less trains with longer runs like the VERMONTER, PALMETTO, CAROLINIAN, ADIRONDACK and the MAPLE LEAF. At least under the IRTC system passengers get to order what they want and it's brought on fresh. The internet has made all sorts of new sales and service models practical.
Potential problems would include what to do if trains were late, how much time would need to be added at the "meal stations" to load food/remove waste, etc. The bigget issue would be finding qualified catereres as contractors and building the web-ordering platform, but IRTC has shown this can be done.But food catering is a very big businedss available virtually everywhere. The vendors could certainly be found.
One other issue in comparing this to the Indian system is that the expectation there is that passengers will pick-up the food themselves during longer enroute stops. I can see only chaos if all the 300 passengers on the SILVER STAR tried to detrain to grab their own meals. The food loading/delivery would have to be the responsibility of catering and/or Amtrak staff.
I'd prefer not to see this offered on true overnight long-hauls, (which really need traditional diners) but rather as suggested above, as an upgrade on the longer all-coach day services, but if Amtrak is held to its impossible "no food service losses in five years" promise, something like this may be the only way to go.
Something at least that we can discuss?
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