dakotafredYou know, our 125-year-old format for serving food on the train is kind of tried and true. The problem is not with the format, which is a model of efficiency...
And you say this with a straight face, knowing that dining-car service has almost always been an extreme 'loss-leader' cost-wise?
It was a fine thing to justify this back in the day when it was possible to justify the extreme cost on the basis of 'customer retention' or repeat loyalty ... and make up the difference in other ways, including shipper preference. I think very few of these reasons still apply to Amtrak food service, and it might be highly interesting to see what the 'take rate' and profitability from an outsourced fast-casual options program ... even including that which is finish-prepared and served in a dining-car setting ... might turn out to be.
This in distinction from the idea of providing less-formal meals via the "app" system that was the original focus of this thread, which beats precast frozen food heated in a microwave all hollow almost regardless of how much "quality" or "convenience" that approach provides.
I do agree that some 'onboard' provisioning should be made, in part for the reasons Johnny brought up (unexpected severe delays between points, especially in areas where 'van delivery' to the train could not be made either) -- but I have to wonder whether modern political and economic forces will continue to allow this under the current 'profitability mandate' that is apparently being enforced on Amtrak service.
In brief, I think the argument is going to come down to an extension of the Silver Star approach, where if the diner can't show at least a paper profit it will be abolished where it does not. And that would be a shame.
We've already determined that it would not 'pay' a fast-casual-derived "service company" to run their employees forward and backward on a 'dinner train' sort of model to outsource the dining-car service itself. Has anyone broken down the cost of providing an appropriately 'fine' level of courteous -- I find I have to insert this as a qualifier since there are reports it isn't SOP for some crews or trains -- service in the diners vs. the overhead costs of food provision and preparation that exceed what the 'catering' models would entail?
(Hopefully Tom (ACY) is watching this thread and can comment from experience...)
WizlishWe've already determined that it would not 'pay' a fast-casual-derived "service company" to run their employees forward and backward on a 'dinner train' sort of model to outsource the dining-car service itself. Has anyone broken down the cost of providing an appropriately 'fine' level of courteous -- I find I have to insert this as a qualifier since there are reports it isn't SOP for some crews or trains -- service in the diners vs. the overhead costs of food provision and preparation that exceed what the 'catering' models would entail?
While it is true it would be cost prohibitive for them to staff on the train and deliver to the seat unless the train remained stopped for an extended period of time. They could easily cater to the train running through their town and deliver to the train or even train car (they are numbered on the outside and so are the seats on the inside) as I think the OP was asking about. Who would deliver the food on the train is a matter that would need research or further discussion. Having the delivery person board the train I think would lead to other issues.
Wizlish dakotafred You know, our 125-year-old format for serving food on the train is kind of tried and true. The problem is not with the format, which is a model of efficiency... And you say this with a straight face, knowing that dining-car service has almost always been an extreme 'loss-leader' cost-wise?
dakotafred You know, our 125-year-old format for serving food on the train is kind of tried and true. The problem is not with the format, which is a model of efficiency...
This is also in response to Schlimm, 2 posts above. (I'm sorry that my primitive ability to maneuver around here doesn't allow me to 'stack' quotes.)
For heaven's sake, what has changed in the requirements of the service in 125 years? Then and now, the model requires on-board preparation and serving of food.
Sure, this costs more than service at one of Milw's restaurants. You want expensive? How about a restaurant on the Moon? Yet there too there would be an idiot like John Mica challenging the high cost to generate and serve a hamburger.
I don't care if a diner meal can no longer be justified on extraneous grounds such as showboating for shippers. It is an essential component of 79-mph rail passenger transportation. Nobody on here or on other threads has demonstrated yet how it can be delivered more efficiently or even necessarily more cheaply.
And reliably? Forget it.
Certainly none of these bright ideas has been demonstrated historically -- for 125 weeks, let alone 125 years.
There might be a reason for that.
Fred. Times have really changed.** Nobody has really tried the alternatives batted around on here. Very few people will pay 40-60 dollars for dinner in the Amtrak diner. It's time for innovation or food service will die.
** Imagine how much anything like this would cost now!! "The Christmas menu for the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Railway in 1882 listed the following items: Hunter's Soup, Salmon with Hollandaise Sauce, Boned Pheasant in Aspic Jelly, Chicken Salad, Salmis Prairie Chicken, Oyster Patties, Rice Croquette, Roast Beef, English Ribs of Beef, Turkey with Cranberry Sauce, Stuffed Suckling Pig with Applesauce, Antelope Steak with Currant Jelly, potatoes, green peas, tomatoes, sweet potatoes, Mince Pie, Plum Pudding, Cake, Ice Cream, Fruits and coffee."
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
YOu don't have to go back that far. The best name trains just before 1 May 1971 had equally fine menues, in my opinion.
And the Rio Grande Zephyr and the Southern Crescent afterward!
I moved to Jerusalem before Acelas replaced Metroliners. But I found first-class precooked food on Metroliners good enough to enjoy the meal and the trip. I do think that national-chain quality restaurants can provide excellent food for long-distance trains and save a lot of money. The few times I have had the opportunity to fly first class on airlines, I have really enjoyed the meals. Uniformly on Air France in the 1960s and often on El Al into the 90s I even enjoyed excellent meals in tourist class. Some on-board supervision and continuity by Amtrak employees will still be essential, but I don;t think paying four or five people to sleep on trains just for food preperation makes sense in the 21st Century.
schlimm Fred. Times have really changed.** Nobody has really tried the alternatives batted around on here. Very few people will pay 40-60 dollars for dinner in the Amtrak diner. It's time for innovation or food service will die. ** Imagine how much anything like this would cost now!! "The Christmas menu for the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Railway in 1882 listed the following items: Hunter's Soup, Salmon with Hollandaise Sauce, Boned Pheasant in Aspic Jelly, Chicken Salad, Salmis Prairie Chicken, Oyster Patties, Rice Croquette, Roast Beef, English Ribs of Beef, Turkey with Cranberry Sauce, Stuffed Suckling Pig with Applesauce, Antelope Steak with Currant Jelly, potatoes, green peas, tomatoes, sweet potatoes, Mince Pie, Plum Pudding, Cake, Ice Cream, Fruits and coffee."
I really wonder, with their restricted space, where they kept all this stuff. (I mean the dining crew, not the passengers!)
Look at the floor plan of a typical one-car dining car, 80-feet long. No vestibules. The kitchen is approximately 35 feet long and seven feet wide. Of that seven feet, about three feet is aisle or space for cooks, servers-dishwahsers to stand. So you have four feet by 35 feet, by seven feet in height to devote to cookinig, refrigerating, and storage, approximately 1000 (980) cubic feet. Some storage is of courese in refrigeration. Because of clever design, no waisted space, there was probably more refirgeraiton area and more protected storage area than in an average medium-sized restaurant. Two-unit diners and high-level diners had even more space, of course.
Some dining cars had storage pantries as well I have seen touring through the former shells as they come up for sale. They seemed to have a little more prep area than a fast casual restaurant would normally have but they do have more appliances. Most fast casual places focus on specific areas. Some of those old Dining car seems to have every type of appliance imaginable including deep fryers, coffee makers, more than one type of oven. Saw one with a char grill even.
Note fast casual restaurants will deliberately avoid specific areas. Jimmy Johns (no baking or cooking), Subway (no frying), Charley's (no cold sandwiches, Breakfest or Dissert), Cousins (no frying or dissert, no baking), etc. Done to save on money spent for kitchen, prep, training and insurance. BTW, state law in most states, you have to be at least 18 years old to operate a food processor to slice vegetables.
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