Further to my earlier "Where are the Stories" threads on the absense of certain reporting in the rail (fan) media, the Amtrak Inspector General's office put out a fascinating (and not very inspiring) report on the endlessly delayed Viewliner II order for diners, sleepers and crew dorms on February 1. It can be read by clicking on the "report" link at https://www.amtrakoig.gov/report-records/audit-reports/asset-management-additional-actions-can-help-reduce-significant-risks
I have wondered for sometime if the Boardman management was deliberately slow-walking this project. The report clarifies the situation, but gives little hope of any early arrival of new cars--especially the revenue generating sleepers. Another rumor has the long-completed "test" diner, and sleeper (finished as far back as 2014) finally moving from Elmira to MIami in the week of March 18. We'll see.
Carl Fowler
Wow, some of those defects are pretty basic.
Diaphram between cars retracting, Air Conditioning on Diners not performing to specifications, defective bolts on truck shock absorbers, etc.
I would have thought building a rail passenger car not to be rocket science, especially when based on the same template and construction of the Dining and Sleeping Cars was modular.
CMStPnP Wow, some of those defects are pretty basic. Diaphram between cars retracting, Air Conditioning on Diners not performing to specifications, defective bolts on truck shock absorbers, etc. I would have thought building a rail passenger car not to be rocket science, especially when based on the same template and construction of the Dining and Sleeping Cars was modular.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
Railvt Further to my earlier "Where are the Stories" threads on the absense of certain reporting in the rail (fan) media, the Amtrak Inspector General's office put out a fascinating (and not very inspiring) report on the endlessly delayed Viewliner II order for diners, sleepers and crew dorms on February 1. It can be read by clicking on the "report" link at https://www.amtrakoig.gov/report-records/audit-reports/asset-management-additional-actions-can-help-reduce-significant-risks I have wondered for sometime if the Boardman management was deliberately slow-walking this project. The report clarifies the situation, but gives little hope of any early arrival of new cars--especially the revenue generating sleepers. Another rumor has the long-completed "test" diner, and sleeper (finished as far back as 2014) finally moving from Elmira to MIami in the week of March 18. We'll see. Carl Fowler
I found it curious that the Bags had to be transported from NY to Miami to be inspected (and I expect prepaired) prior to being placed in service. The report seems to explain why - inept construction by CAF.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD I found it curious that the Bags had to be transported from NY to Miami to be inspected (and I expect prepaired) prior to being placed in service. The report seems to explain why - inept construction by CAF.
D.Carleton BaltACD I found it curious that the Bags had to be transported from NY to Miami to be inspected (and I expect prepaired) prior to being placed in service. The report seems to explain why - inept construction by CAF. Ineptitude or inexperience? Sometimes it is difficult to diferentiate.
Ineptitude or inexperience? Sometimes it is difficult to diferentiate.
Don't the RRs and know the airlines take delivery of units then ship them somewhere to set them up. Someone can tell us how long it takes a RR or say BNSF to set up their new locos ?
Know it can take 2 - 4 weeks for a new airplane to be set up.
Works better for receiver of units to do final set up.
.
blue streak 1 Don't the RRs and... the airlines take delivery of units then ship them somewhere to set them up. Someone can tell us how long it takes a RR or say BNSF to set up their new locos ? Know it can take 2 - 4 weeks for a new airplane to be set up. Works better for receiver of units to do final set up.
Amtrak OIG report, page 10Under the company’s agreement to accept the baggage cars, CAF will address these defects at Amtrak’s maintenance facility in Hialeah, Florida.
D.CarletonIneptitude or inexperience? Sometimes it is difficult to differentiate.
Ignorance is not necessarily stupidity. I'd like to see an engineering assessment of the details of these defects, their severity, and what is being done to remediate them and ensure the problems don't recur on new construction -- etc.
Wilful or repeated ignorance... that's another matter.
Seems to me that the big detail in the OIG story is the establishment of careful design review and oversight going forward. If that is done by even halfway-competent people at Amtrak who understand basic things about engineering (and passenger railroading), it should work nicely
I am rather curious about a couple of things. How many railroads back in the day built some of their own passenger equipment? This second question may sound dumb, but would it be more practical for Amtrak to build some of their own rolling stock, thus have control over quality issues?
A McIntosh I am rather curious about a couple of things. How many railroads back in the day built some of their own passenger equipment? This second question may sound dumb, but would it be more practical for Amtrak to build some of their own rolling stock, thus have control over quality issues?
In the 'olden' days a number of carriers did some of their own passenger car building and rebuilding - the crafts that performed these services had grown up with the equipment over the years.
Amtrak doesn't have any existing crafts to perform these services in the scale necessary to fulfill their car orders.
Wizlish D.Carleton Ineptitude or inexperience? Sometimes it is difficult to differentiate. Wilful or repeated ignorance... that's another matter. Seems to me that the big detail in the OIG story is the establishment of careful design review and oversight going forward. If that is done by even halfway-competent people at Amtrak who understand basic things about engineering (and passenger railroading), it should work nicely
D.Carleton Ineptitude or inexperience? Sometimes it is difficult to differentiate.
Ineptitude or inexperience? Does it really matter?
The bottom line is that the cars need to meet certain standards. If they don't do that, the employees and passengers who will depend on this equipment will not be served, and that's the only thing that matters in the long run.
Tom
If the V2 baggage cars do not meet the specs, why does Amtrak accept them? They should have been returned to the manufacturer to remediate before paying one dime for them. At the very least, the manufacturer should be held acccountable for whatever it costs to repair them.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimmIf the V2 baggage cars do not meet the specs, why does Amtrak accept them? They should have been returned to the manufacturer to remediate before paying one dime for them.
I think, in part, we're looking at the same thing Mr. Carleton was hinting at above: if CAF cuts its losses or loses too much, and quits, there goes the whole production with no one else eager or willing to fill in. I am still in shock that the whole Turbotrain stock went for cheap scrap prices as it did. Might be worth more than a little careful 'aftermarket' tinkering at Hialeah to fix defined errors would cost to keep the facility going a while longer...
... but I do agree that CAF, or its insurers or bond providers or whatever, should compensate Amtrak for both the expense and the consequences of the delays (to the extent that consequential damages aren't excluded from the contract terms).
I believe PRR & Milwaukee built cars. Remember the Beaver tail obs and the horizontal ribbed sides on the MLW. And I think the P72 coaches were built in Holidaysburg.
Also, the plant in Rochelle that has the contract for the new Illinois/Michigan/California bilevels is stalled after their first car failed the compression test. Siemans in Sacramento seems to be doing things right with Amtrak's locomotives and has the contract for the Florida tralns. Perhaps Trains Mag can get us updates on the status of these projects.
Between 1946 and 1949 the PRR built or had built 94 P85br coaches. They were 44 seat cars that were part of the Pennsy's post WWII upgrade of its passenger train fleet. The initial batch was assigned to the Jeffersonian. Subsequently, they could be found on the General, Spirit of St. Louis, etc.
The cars were designed by ACF, which built 24 of them. The other 70 were built in Altoona from kits.
The Pennsylvania Railroad built more than 1,000 P70 coaches between 1907 and 1929. I believe they many if not all of them were built at the East Altoona car shop(s). I may be wrong, but I don't believe any passenger cars were built at the Samuel Rae shops in Holisdayburg.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
In addition to the need to replace the Amfleet II coaches, what about the obvious need to replace the Amfleet/Horizon "lounge cars" still used? The lounges today are so spartan and geared more to be a cafe; a far cry from what we knew to be the inviting club lounge cars of the past. Today, only VIA Rail understands what a lounge should be, including the appropriate inventory, and attendant as a trained bartender.
SuperChief49,
You are so right! Amtrak doesn't have a clue as to
how a lounge car should be furnished.
Its not that Amtrak Has no clue, their is congressional pressure to eliminate any kind of food service except the barest of essential. You need to write your right leaning congressman and senators to fix your dining and lounge issues. Quality service is not often cheap.
Wizlish schlimm If the V2 baggage cars do not meet the specs, why does Amtrak accept them? They should have been returned to the manufacturer to remediate before paying one dime for them. ... but I do agree that CAF, or its insurers or bond providers or whatever, should compensate Amtrak for both the expense and the consequences of the delays (to the extent that consequential damages aren't excluded from the contract terms).
schlimm If the V2 baggage cars do not meet the specs, why does Amtrak accept them? They should have been returned to the manufacturer to remediate before paying one dime for them.
So should Amrak acede to CAF under the threat of their going out of business and do nothing? There may be some sort of performance bonds put up by the manufacturer to make good on the defective product. But you are right. Amtrak should use manufacturers with a proven record of success with those specs. I wonder if there was any under the table component on CAF's bid?
schlimm So should Amrak acede to CAF under the threat of their going out of business and do nothing? There may be some sort of performance bonds put up by the manufacturer to make good on the defective product. But you are right. Amtrak should use manufacturers with a proven record of success with those specs. I wonder if there was any under the table component on CAF's bid?
What should Amtrak do? They should learn not to do business with companies that have very little skin-in-the-game. Obviously they are not very good at that.
More misfeasance by the Boardman regime, like composition of the order itself -- all those baggage and dorm cars -- and its capitulation on food service.
Well, Amtrak has been thru many misadventures, including food service that has been up, down and back again. I suppose it will survive this one too, because support for it in the public is there.
What it really needs is a new board of directors. Who appoints those people, anyway?
dakotafred What it really needs is a new board of directors. Who appoints those people, anyway?
(a) Composition and Terms.—
Thank you for the info, D. I've never had a sense of the board's interest in administration of Amtrak except when they run off an effective president such as David Gunn. Maybe nobody in the press -- or his boss -- cares what's going on at the board.
Hard to believe you could get 9 people to sign off on that stupid equipment order. Or to make no fuss (that we ever heard of) about the botched job they got from their contractor.
Most board members at most corporations go along with management like sock puppets, unless they got elected by 'restless' shareholders.
I know this wouldn't work at Amtrak, but maybe board members at private companies should be required to have skin -- a significant number of shares -- in the game. That would pique interest, one would think.
Most of the board members of public corporations have a substantial position in the stock of the company.
The compensation of most board members consists of an annual retainer and common stock awards or warrants to purchase stock on the strike date.
CSX, which is a typical example, has 12 non-employee directors. In 2014 they received fees or cash payments that ranged from $27,500 to $105,000. In addition, each director received CSX common stock with a market value of $149,851 on the grant date, which was February 12, 2014.
The requirements regarding non-employee director ownership of CSX stock are set forth in this paragraph from the Proxy Report:
"These guidelines require that all non-employee directors own shares of CSX common stock.
Within five years of election to the Board, a non-employee director is expected to acquire and hold an amount of CSX common stock equal in value to five times the amount of such non-employee director’s annual retainer.
Moreover, non-employee directors may only dispose of shares held in excess of 120% of the applicable ownership threshold.
If the annual retainer increases, the non-employee directors will have five years from the time of the increase to acquire any additional shares needed to satisfy the guidelines."
Ah, but can you meet CSX's ownership requirement with 5 years' worth of "gift" stock? Is there real skin in the game? Why shouldn't there be ownership going in?
And since some of you are certainly wondering, here is the current slate of NRPC directors: https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241245669142
Feel free to peruse their individual CV's to see what makes them so eminently qualified to run a passenger railroad.
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