Auto Train has a scheduled arrival of 9 AM and a scheduled departure of 4 PM at both terminals. When the train is running in it's 'On Time Window', the scheduled departure time is achieved with little difficulty.
When Auto Train is running seriously late - 4 to 5 hours is the observed best turnaround time - of course that time, in addition to servicing and restocking the passenger equipment includes unloading and reloading the autoracks.
Because of lack of equipment, Auto Train has no option except trying to run itself back on time. The only other option is to cancel a trip - this option has been exercised when both equipment sets are operating seriously late.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
"Do the math..." 24 hours - 19 hours run time = 5 hours for servicing, one set of equipment per direction.
Is there a reference to be cited with cost data for 500 mile competiveness with automobiles, the largest part of the market. There is truth to this in airline versus HSR, but those are different market dynamics with neither commercial air service nor HSR calling at many of the cities on Long Distance routes anytime soon. (Some Edits here since posted)
Two words in regard the AAF and food service vs Amtrak's mess: Labor costs.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
V.Payne“Skoropowski, Managing Director of the Capitol Corridor JPA, says…The availability of food and beverages is one of the reasons our trains are attracting a growing number of riders… Skoropowski considers it as a cost of doing business, just like well-maintained equipment, on-time performance and clean bathrooms… along the 170 mile Capitol Corridor… Ticket sales would drop more than that if we eliminated the food and beverage… Financially we’re better off with food service than without it. In terms of its impact on our overall fare box recovery, food and beverage service is a major, positive contributing factor…” I am sure everybody is familiar with this gentleman, he is currently helping out with FEC’s Brightline/AAF project the only private corridor project going in North American. Do you think they are concerned about net revenue? What he is saying is counting a portion of food service as a joint cost is necessary as net revenue decreases otherwise.
Have you read the Amtrak Food Service experiments in the lastest issue of Trains, they seem to counter his belief in part. Holding the fares of the sleeping car steady on the Silver Star without a Dining Car while letting the fares of the Silver Meteor rise with no cap. Silver Star has a better sleeping car booking rate. Revenue per passenger is higher on the Silver Meteor. Unfortunately it did not say in Trains which train was recovering more of it's cost.
Whats interesting is the exact same passenger behavior was discovered by American Airlines chief Robert Crandall (you need to watch some of his youtube videos). He clearly states that: "passengers only complain about bad or scarce food service BUT what they really want is the cheapest fare and most reliable service......they do not give one whit about food or beverage service". He also stated: "Passengers will switch carriers over bad on-time service or high fares BUT they won't necessarily switch over food or beverage service". Crandall has said that again and again via Congressional Testimony and it is on more than one youtube video.
Last but not least, agree with schlimm you cannot compare Amtrak management with private sector management. Private sector management will hire a very compent manager for food and beverage service.......Amtrak generally will not. FEC's Manager will have to meet targets or he/she will lose their job. Amtrak's manager will have suggestions and maybe a shrug of the shoulders if a bad outcome. Too different management philosophies and the difference between government as your partner and stockholders as your partner.
I have to meet targets as part of my job or I will be out on the street looking for another. Its how my employer incents me to keep me competitive in the marketplace. Without incenting me towards competitiveness, I become in effect a wasting asset with my utility to the company slowly fading away as my skills become dated. Where is such a program on Amtrak?
Actually my point was similar to one you made long ago. No matter how good the management, Amtrak is stuck with wages + benefits far in excess of what is paid in the market for food staffing in a low end to middle range restaurant, so it cannot come close to covering costs.
schlimm Actually my point was similar to one you made long ago. No matter how good the management, Amtrak is stuck with wages + benefits far in excess of what is paid in the market for food staffing in a low end to middle range restaurant, so it cannot come close to covering costs.
When you have higher wage costs, you can't go about things the same way as everybody else or you will lose. The more Amtrak can sub-out, automate and self-serve, the better.
I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmannd I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice.
You do when the agreement with your employees requires it.
Hence the need to subcontract food services and eliminate the expensive commissaries.
schlimm Hence the need to subcontract food services and eliminate the expensive commissaries.
Is this a suggestion for some union-busting??
Subcontracting is a subject in labor agreement negotiations. How badly do you want your property to be the subject of a strike by disregarding negotiating an agreement?
BaltACDSubcontracting is a subject in labor agreement negotiations. How badly do you want your property to be the subject of a strike by disregarding negotiating an agreement?
Perhaps precisely the point of getting rid of the whole service subject to "agreement negotiations" -- for valid business reasons, of course -- and then setting up something new in a few months... like an outsourcing arrangement for the 'new' services that the marks are clamoring for by that time...
oltmanndWhen you have higher wage costs, you can't go about things the same way as everybody else or you will lose. The more Amtrak can sub-out, automate and self-serve, the better. I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice.
Actually you kind of do but do not realize it.
Coke only makes distribution machines with ICE hoppers on top..........someone has to fill them with ICE or they will run out. Even though McDonalds and other FF restaurants pass on cleaning them, the beverage distribution nozzles that mix the syrup and carbonated water have to be cleaned and santized on a regular basis (once a day or once a week depending on traffic)......if you want to be grossed out, unscrew the black nozzle cap at a busy and poorly managaged McDonalds and look at the funk underneath that is also making it into your Soda in pieces because some places skip this.
Syrup boxes need to be replaced. Additionally, said soda machine and countertop surrounds has to be cleaned, Ice machine has to be monitored periodically for stoppages (ice freezing together into larger blocks), Ice Machine water filters and Ice Machine Air filers have to be checked or replaced. Ice Machine per health department rules has to be emptied completely, drained and sanitized every so often (once a week). Your not going to get this done without a once or twice daily maintenance schedule. Really need it twice a day on a passenger train at a minimum, IMO. Although I have seen restaurants get by via skipping it all and only doing it once a week. Thats kind of gross, IMO and eventually they will be cited for it.
Believe it or not the Soda Machine alone needs a lot of maintenence per week. Ice Machine can do OK with weekly maintenence schedule but still there will be blockages of ice in the Ice machine someone will need to check on it every so often to make sure it continues to make Ice..........even the new Ice machines have this issue.
So I think you need at least a part time attendant.
"Unfortunately it did not say in Trains which train was recovering more of it's cost..."
Yes, it was an interesting article particularly the idea of using existing attendants more effectively.
However, NRPC likely has no idea about cost recovery if they cannot produce Variable Costs as required by Congress.
If they have these numbers internally but refused to publish them they were in violation of the PRIIA law, if they do not have them as I suspect, then how would they know?
My current employer tracks a variable cost measure each week for every product line. Largely governments have no idea about this metric. But this is not unique. If you asked your local DOT about say the Average Cost of a highway project you would get a blank stare.
They would/should know if they are covering costs because that refers to revenue compared to variable + fixed costs, i.e. total costs, which is given.
CSSHEGEWISCH schlimm Hence the need to subcontract food services and eliminate the expensive commissaries. Is this a suggestion for some union-busting??
It's more than a suggestion. It's a demand for some union busting. Commissaries are already sub contracted.
Maybe you'll be perfectly happy for your self-service ice to be contaminated by some other passenger (Yes, it happens!) because there was nobody there to prevent it. Maybe you'll be perfectly happy to put some more people out of work or replace them with underpaid unprofessional nonunion workers who have to rely on our taxes to provide assistance so they can make ends meet a la Walmart.
You can pay one way, or you can pay another way. Either way, there's no free lunch.
Tom
BaltACD oltmannd I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice. You do when the agreement with your employees requires it.
And who agreed to those contracts? Amtrak. Paying a high wage for low value added work - handing me a cup of ice and a can of soda for example - doesn't bother them because there's nothing in it for any one at Amtrak.
oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice. You do when the agreement with your employees requires it. And who agreed to those contracts? Amtrak. Paying a high wage for low value added work - handing me a cup of ice and a can of soda for example - doesn't bother them because there's nothing in it for any one at Amtrak.
Here's an idea - Amtrak operates with Engineer & Conductor - both on head end so mandatory directives can be copied in real time. The rest of the train is self service on the honor system - sure cuts labor costs. Passengers can bring their own food and prepare it as they see fit as well as clean the cars for the next group of passengers.
BaltACD oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice. You do when the agreement with your employees requires it. And who agreed to those contracts? Amtrak. Paying a high wage for low value added work - handing me a cup of ice and a can of soda for example - doesn't bother them because there's nothing in it for any one at Amtrak. Here's an idea - Amtrak operates with Engineer & Conductor - both on head end so mandatory directives can be copied in real time. The rest of the train is self service on the honor system - sure cuts labor costs. Passengers can bring their own food and prepare it as they see fit as well as clean the cars for the next group of passengers.
We have honor system cafe at work. But, it's on the "trust but verify" rule. It's monitored by camera.
Or a less facitious modification to your "suggestion" - Contract out all the service behind the locomotive coupler and above the floor to a hospitality company.
So, the Silver Star has no diner. Yet, Amtrak has new diners being built.
Amtrak has a slew of new baggage cars, yet the EB Capitol saw last Thursday at Point of Rocks had none.
There is a plan?
oltmannd So, the Silver Star has no diner. Yet, Amtrak has new diners being built. Amtrak has a slew of new baggage cars, yet the EB Capitol saw last Thursday at Point of Rocks had none. There is a plan?
Brilliant!!
oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice. You do when the agreement with your employees requires it. And who agreed to those contracts? Amtrak. Paying a high wage for low value added work - handing me a cup of ice and a can of soda for example - doesn't bother them because there's nothing in it for any one at Amtrak. Here's an idea - Amtrak operates with Engineer & Conductor - both on head end so mandatory directives can be copied in real time. The rest of the train is self service on the honor system - sure cuts labor costs. Passengers can bring their own food and prepare it as they see fit as well as clean the cars for the next group of passengers. We have honor system cafe at work. But, it's on the "trust but verify" rule. It's monitored by camera. Or a less facitious modification to your "suggestion" - Contract out all the service behind the locomotive coupler and above the floor to a hospitality company.
Just how does your honor system work in a legal environment wherein the FDA mandates sanitary conditions in food service areas? Do you trust the passenger who preceded you to know and practice sanitary procedures? Having observed the behavior of actual passengers over a period of almost 30 years, I don't.
It would be safer to eliminate all food and beverage service than to leave it to unregulated and unpredictable passengers.
The questions prompted by the photos above may be much more to the point. Does anybody currently in Amtrak's high level management really have a clue?
I think it's kind of pathetic that we've grown so used to crappy wages that we think someone who makes a decent one is getting away with something. An Amtrak dining-car waiter or cafe attendant makes more than someone flipping at McDonald's, so subcontract and take it away from him.
Horsefeathers, sez I. We need to get our pride back, get the free-traders under control and be smart enough to realize that our natural resources and wealth (while we still have it) can buy a lot of protection. (Yes, as in "protectionism.")
What could be worse than what we're doing now?
ACY oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice. You do when the agreement with your employees requires it. And who agreed to those contracts? Amtrak. Paying a high wage for low value added work - handing me a cup of ice and a can of soda for example - doesn't bother them because there's nothing in it for any one at Amtrak. Here's an idea - Amtrak operates with Engineer & Conductor - both on head end so mandatory directives can be copied in real time. The rest of the train is self service on the honor system - sure cuts labor costs. Passengers can bring their own food and prepare it as they see fit as well as clean the cars for the next group of passengers. We have honor system cafe at work. But, it's on the "trust but verify" rule. It's monitored by camera. Or a less facitious modification to your "suggestion" - Contract out all the service behind the locomotive coupler and above the floor to a hospitality company. Just how does your honor system work in a legal environment wherein the FDA mandates sanitary conditions in food service areas? Do you trust the passenger who preceded you to know and practice sanitary procedures? Having observed the behavior of actual passengers over a period of almost 30 years, I don't. It would be safer to eliminate all food and beverage service than to leave it to unregulated and unpredictable passengers. The questions prompted by the photos above may be much more to the point. Does anybody currently in Amtrak's high level management really have a clue? Tom
Tom, I think that was somone's lame attempt at sarcasm.
In the current envirionment, sarcasm can easily become policy. It's often very difficult to tell the difference.
dakotafred I think it's kind of pathetic that we've grown so used to crappy wages that we think someone who makes a decent one is getting away with something. An Amtrak dining-car waiter or cafe attendant makes more than someone flipping at McDonald's, so subcontract and take it away from him. Horsefeathers, sez I. We need to get our pride back, get the free-traders under control and be smart enough to realize that our natural resources and wealth (while we still have it) can buy a lot of protection. (Yes, as in "protectionism.") What could be worse than what we're doing now?
Your missing the subliminal point being communicated here. The people are being equated to the food. If you increased the quality of the food to be closer to fine dining and trained the staff to be a little more market based in the performance area............nobody would make the McDonalds comparison.
So when I read that kind of post here on the Forum, in my mind it is the reader saying the food is so crappy, why treat those that serve it with respect. Though I will say Amtrak servers do need to up their game a little with client service skills as well but again.........why would they do that on their own if they too, felt what they were serving was largely crap and they were not getting tipped well.
Now your going to see at least one person in this forum rebut this post and say they like Amtrak food and see nothing wrong with it. Hey thats great, some people love that crappy artificial cheese sauce they pour on nachos as well. Doesn't mean it is good food.
ACYJust how does your honor system work in a legal environment wherein the FDA mandates sanitary conditions in food service areas? Do you trust the passenger who preceded you to know and practice sanitary procedures? Having observed the behavior of actual passengers over a period of almost 30 years, I don't. It would be safer to eliminate all food and beverage service than to leave it to unregulated and unpredictable passengers.
Yup, observed behavior as a traveling consultant and once upon a time fast casual restaurant owner......
1. New Yorkers, so help me god, will always stick their fingers into food service containers at a salad bar to "sample" items. It's gross but you can observe that behavior in both Manhattan and the East Coast of Southern Florida.
2. Kids will inevitably drink down their soda right at the dispenser, dispensing some backwash into their cup then they ram the cup up so high on the dispenser that the dispensing nozzle comes in contact with the fluid in their cup. Seen that happen more than once.
3. Put out freshly cut limes or other fruit for tea and inevitably someone sees it as free citrus salad and loads up on what should be a garnish.
4. The folks that love to save their most productive sneezes while at the salad bar or hovering over an open grill.
5. Little kids mouthing the seat backs with their open mouths and siliva.
6. Raised like cattle humans, that dump trash and food on the floor or wait until you are emptying the trash to throw away their garbage in a receptacle without a replacement garbage bag liner yet. Plenty of these types in every state.
7. My personal favorite. I am using the latrine but I don't see any need to wash my hands afterwards because my Mother and Father is not supervising me anymore and I am now a grown adult. So it's my decision. <talking third person here, I was raised better>.
8. I am going to let my kid walk down the tray serving line because I think it looks cute and why discipline a kid for that? Thats what school teachers are for.
etc, etc................so yes you need an attendent trained in food handling procedures and food management or your going to get a lot of people sick. You need to constantly observe the public and wipe down and clean with a sanitizer solution to keep most normal folks safe from the cave people.
I'm aware of passenger-caused sanitation issues that resulted in an entire car being bad-ordered and taken out of service. You don't want to know.
CMStPnPSo I think you need at least a part time attendant.
I don't disagree! The goal would be to make money - or lose a lot less. The key is productivity.
schlimm ACY oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice. You do when the agreement with your employees requires it. And who agreed to those contracts? Amtrak. Paying a high wage for low value added work - handing me a cup of ice and a can of soda for example - doesn't bother them because there's nothing in it for any one at Amtrak. Here's an idea - Amtrak operates with Engineer & Conductor - both on head end so mandatory directives can be copied in real time. The rest of the train is self service on the honor system - sure cuts labor costs. Passengers can bring their own food and prepare it as they see fit as well as clean the cars for the next group of passengers. We have honor system cafe at work. But, it's on the "trust but verify" rule. It's monitored by camera. Or a less facitious modification to your "suggestion" - Contract out all the service behind the locomotive coupler and above the floor to a hospitality company. Just how does your honor system work in a legal environment wherein the FDA mandates sanitary conditions in food service areas? Do you trust the passenger who preceded you to know and practice sanitary procedures? Having observed the behavior of actual passengers over a period of almost 30 years, I don't. It would be safer to eliminate all food and beverage service than to leave it to unregulated and unpredictable passengers. The questions prompted by the photos above may be much more to the point. Does anybody currently in Amtrak's high level management really have a clue? Tom Tom, I think that was somone's lame attempt at sarcasm.
Lame, maybe. Sarcastic? Maybe not so much.
The cafe at work was inside the security turnstiles, so everyone in there was more or less know. Everything was prepackaged and you could pay only with credit card. Not an ideal solution for an Amtrak cafe car.
The point was that the Amtrak way of having everything behind the counter and having the attendant serve every last item is pretty inefficient. Perhaps the Sheetz, Wawa or QT model would be a better example.
When I rode Via Rail in Canada, the railroad (CN) supplied the Engineer and Conductor and both rode the Locomotive. The Via crew ran the "Hotel" or train and told the operating crew when they were ready to depart. Via supplied the car attendents and dining crew and a Via person was in charge of the on-board service. In USA, Amtrak provides the engineer and conductor as well as the "hotel" crew. Does anybody know how the Amtrak trains to Canada are crewed?
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