Paul, as I recall, when Amtrak began staffing the trains with Amtrak operating crews, for a time the Cardinal still operated by CSX (or CSX predecessor) employees west of Washington. When I rode it in 1980, this was the case. The times that I rode the train from 2009 on, the conductors wore Amtrak uniforms.
I am not positive, but I recall that when we rode from Niagara Falls, N.Y., the business car attendant also changed in Niagara Falls, Ont, since it is a VIA operation from there to Toronto.
Johnny
The operating crew on most trains (the "Cardinal" may be an exception) are also Amtrak employees with their own crew districts and seniority lists.
THAT REFERS ONLY TO TRAIN OPERATING PEOPLE, ENGINEER, CONDUCTOR, AND ANY ASSISTANT CONDUCTOR, CLASSICALLY TRAINMEN OR BRAKEMEN. THE FOOD SERVICE ATTENDENT OR ATTENDENTS IS OR ARE AMTRAK.
Amtrak operates the trains into Vancouver and Montreal; VIA operates the train between Toronto and Niagara Falls, Ontario, and Amtrak operates the train from there.
When I rode Via Rail in Canada, the railroad (CN) supplied the Engineer and Conductor and both rode the Locomotive. The Via crew ran the "Hotel" or train and told the operating crew when they were ready to depart. Via supplied the car attendents and dining crew and a Via person was in charge of the on-board service. In USA, Amtrak provides the engineer and conductor as well as the "hotel" crew. Does anybody know how the Amtrak trains to Canada are crewed?
schlimm ACY oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice. You do when the agreement with your employees requires it. And who agreed to those contracts? Amtrak. Paying a high wage for low value added work - handing me a cup of ice and a can of soda for example - doesn't bother them because there's nothing in it for any one at Amtrak. Here's an idea - Amtrak operates with Engineer & Conductor - both on head end so mandatory directives can be copied in real time. The rest of the train is self service on the honor system - sure cuts labor costs. Passengers can bring their own food and prepare it as they see fit as well as clean the cars for the next group of passengers. We have honor system cafe at work. But, it's on the "trust but verify" rule. It's monitored by camera. Or a less facitious modification to your "suggestion" - Contract out all the service behind the locomotive coupler and above the floor to a hospitality company. Just how does your honor system work in a legal environment wherein the FDA mandates sanitary conditions in food service areas? Do you trust the passenger who preceded you to know and practice sanitary procedures? Having observed the behavior of actual passengers over a period of almost 30 years, I don't. It would be safer to eliminate all food and beverage service than to leave it to unregulated and unpredictable passengers. The questions prompted by the photos above may be much more to the point. Does anybody currently in Amtrak's high level management really have a clue? Tom Tom, I think that was somone's lame attempt at sarcasm.
ACY oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice. You do when the agreement with your employees requires it. And who agreed to those contracts? Amtrak. Paying a high wage for low value added work - handing me a cup of ice and a can of soda for example - doesn't bother them because there's nothing in it for any one at Amtrak. Here's an idea - Amtrak operates with Engineer & Conductor - both on head end so mandatory directives can be copied in real time. The rest of the train is self service on the honor system - sure cuts labor costs. Passengers can bring their own food and prepare it as they see fit as well as clean the cars for the next group of passengers. We have honor system cafe at work. But, it's on the "trust but verify" rule. It's monitored by camera. Or a less facitious modification to your "suggestion" - Contract out all the service behind the locomotive coupler and above the floor to a hospitality company. Just how does your honor system work in a legal environment wherein the FDA mandates sanitary conditions in food service areas? Do you trust the passenger who preceded you to know and practice sanitary procedures? Having observed the behavior of actual passengers over a period of almost 30 years, I don't. It would be safer to eliminate all food and beverage service than to leave it to unregulated and unpredictable passengers. The questions prompted by the photos above may be much more to the point. Does anybody currently in Amtrak's high level management really have a clue? Tom
oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice. You do when the agreement with your employees requires it. And who agreed to those contracts? Amtrak. Paying a high wage for low value added work - handing me a cup of ice and a can of soda for example - doesn't bother them because there's nothing in it for any one at Amtrak. Here's an idea - Amtrak operates with Engineer & Conductor - both on head end so mandatory directives can be copied in real time. The rest of the train is self service on the honor system - sure cuts labor costs. Passengers can bring their own food and prepare it as they see fit as well as clean the cars for the next group of passengers. We have honor system cafe at work. But, it's on the "trust but verify" rule. It's monitored by camera. Or a less facitious modification to your "suggestion" - Contract out all the service behind the locomotive coupler and above the floor to a hospitality company.
BaltACD oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice. You do when the agreement with your employees requires it. And who agreed to those contracts? Amtrak. Paying a high wage for low value added work - handing me a cup of ice and a can of soda for example - doesn't bother them because there's nothing in it for any one at Amtrak. Here's an idea - Amtrak operates with Engineer & Conductor - both on head end so mandatory directives can be copied in real time. The rest of the train is self service on the honor system - sure cuts labor costs. Passengers can bring their own food and prepare it as they see fit as well as clean the cars for the next group of passengers.
oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice. You do when the agreement with your employees requires it. And who agreed to those contracts? Amtrak. Paying a high wage for low value added work - handing me a cup of ice and a can of soda for example - doesn't bother them because there's nothing in it for any one at Amtrak.
BaltACD oltmannd I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice. You do when the agreement with your employees requires it.
oltmannd I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice.
I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice.
You do when the agreement with your employees requires it.
And who agreed to those contracts? Amtrak. Paying a high wage for low value added work - handing me a cup of ice and a can of soda for example - doesn't bother them because there's nothing in it for any one at Amtrak.
Here's an idea - Amtrak operates with Engineer & Conductor - both on head end so mandatory directives can be copied in real time. The rest of the train is self service on the honor system - sure cuts labor costs. Passengers can bring their own food and prepare it as they see fit as well as clean the cars for the next group of passengers.
We have honor system cafe at work. But, it's on the "trust but verify" rule. It's monitored by camera.
Or a less facitious modification to your "suggestion" - Contract out all the service behind the locomotive coupler and above the floor to a hospitality company.
Just how does your honor system work in a legal environment wherein the FDA mandates sanitary conditions in food service areas? Do you trust the passenger who preceded you to know and practice sanitary procedures? Having observed the behavior of actual passengers over a period of almost 30 years, I don't.
It would be safer to eliminate all food and beverage service than to leave it to unregulated and unpredictable passengers.
The questions prompted by the photos above may be much more to the point. Does anybody currently in Amtrak's high level management really have a clue?
Tom
Tom, I think that was somone's lame attempt at sarcasm.
Lame, maybe. Sarcastic? Maybe not so much.
The cafe at work was inside the security turnstiles, so everyone in there was more or less know. Everything was prepackaged and you could pay only with credit card. Not an ideal solution for an Amtrak cafe car.
The point was that the Amtrak way of having everything behind the counter and having the attendant serve every last item is pretty inefficient. Perhaps the Sheetz, Wawa or QT model would be a better example.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
CMStPnPSo I think you need at least a part time attendant.
I don't disagree! The goal would be to make money - or lose a lot less. The key is productivity.
I'm aware of passenger-caused sanitation issues that resulted in an entire car being bad-ordered and taken out of service. You don't want to know.
ACYJust how does your honor system work in a legal environment wherein the FDA mandates sanitary conditions in food service areas? Do you trust the passenger who preceded you to know and practice sanitary procedures? Having observed the behavior of actual passengers over a period of almost 30 years, I don't. It would be safer to eliminate all food and beverage service than to leave it to unregulated and unpredictable passengers.
Yup, observed behavior as a traveling consultant and once upon a time fast casual restaurant owner......
1. New Yorkers, so help me god, will always stick their fingers into food service containers at a salad bar to "sample" items. It's gross but you can observe that behavior in both Manhattan and the East Coast of Southern Florida.
2. Kids will inevitably drink down their soda right at the dispenser, dispensing some backwash into their cup then they ram the cup up so high on the dispenser that the dispensing nozzle comes in contact with the fluid in their cup. Seen that happen more than once.
3. Put out freshly cut limes or other fruit for tea and inevitably someone sees it as free citrus salad and loads up on what should be a garnish.
4. The folks that love to save their most productive sneezes while at the salad bar or hovering over an open grill.
5. Little kids mouthing the seat backs with their open mouths and siliva.
6. Raised like cattle humans, that dump trash and food on the floor or wait until you are emptying the trash to throw away their garbage in a receptacle without a replacement garbage bag liner yet. Plenty of these types in every state.
7. My personal favorite. I am using the latrine but I don't see any need to wash my hands afterwards because my Mother and Father is not supervising me anymore and I am now a grown adult. So it's my decision. <talking third person here, I was raised better>.
8. I am going to let my kid walk down the tray serving line because I think it looks cute and why discipline a kid for that? Thats what school teachers are for.
etc, etc................so yes you need an attendent trained in food handling procedures and food management or your going to get a lot of people sick. You need to constantly observe the public and wipe down and clean with a sanitizer solution to keep most normal folks safe from the cave people.
dakotafred I think it's kind of pathetic that we've grown so used to crappy wages that we think someone who makes a decent one is getting away with something. An Amtrak dining-car waiter or cafe attendant makes more than someone flipping at McDonald's, so subcontract and take it away from him. Horsefeathers, sez I. We need to get our pride back, get the free-traders under control and be smart enough to realize that our natural resources and wealth (while we still have it) can buy a lot of protection. (Yes, as in "protectionism.") What could be worse than what we're doing now?
I think it's kind of pathetic that we've grown so used to crappy wages that we think someone who makes a decent one is getting away with something. An Amtrak dining-car waiter or cafe attendant makes more than someone flipping at McDonald's, so subcontract and take it away from him.
Horsefeathers, sez I. We need to get our pride back, get the free-traders under control and be smart enough to realize that our natural resources and wealth (while we still have it) can buy a lot of protection. (Yes, as in "protectionism.")
What could be worse than what we're doing now?
Your missing the subliminal point being communicated here. The people are being equated to the food. If you increased the quality of the food to be closer to fine dining and trained the staff to be a little more market based in the performance area............nobody would make the McDonalds comparison.
So when I read that kind of post here on the Forum, in my mind it is the reader saying the food is so crappy, why treat those that serve it with respect. Though I will say Amtrak servers do need to up their game a little with client service skills as well but again.........why would they do that on their own if they too, felt what they were serving was largely crap and they were not getting tipped well.
Now your going to see at least one person in this forum rebut this post and say they like Amtrak food and see nothing wrong with it. Hey thats great, some people love that crappy artificial cheese sauce they pour on nachos as well. Doesn't mean it is good food.
In the current envirionment, sarcasm can easily become policy. It's often very difficult to tell the difference.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
oltmannd So, the Silver Star has no diner. Yet, Amtrak has new diners being built. Amtrak has a slew of new baggage cars, yet the EB Capitol saw last Thursday at Point of Rocks had none. There is a plan?
So, the Silver Star has no diner. Yet, Amtrak has new diners being built.
Amtrak has a slew of new baggage cars, yet the EB Capitol saw last Thursday at Point of Rocks had none.
There is a plan?
Brilliant!!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
CSSHEGEWISCH schlimm Hence the need to subcontract food services and eliminate the expensive commissaries. Is this a suggestion for some union-busting??
schlimm Hence the need to subcontract food services and eliminate the expensive commissaries.
Hence the need to subcontract food services and eliminate the expensive commissaries.
Is this a suggestion for some union-busting??
It's more than a suggestion. It's a demand for some union busting. Commissaries are already sub contracted.
Maybe you'll be perfectly happy for your self-service ice to be contaminated by some other passenger (Yes, it happens!) because there was nobody there to prevent it. Maybe you'll be perfectly happy to put some more people out of work or replace them with underpaid unprofessional nonunion workers who have to rely on our taxes to provide assistance so they can make ends meet a la Walmart.
You can pay one way, or you can pay another way. Either way, there's no free lunch.
They would/should know if they are covering costs because that refers to revenue compared to variable + fixed costs, i.e. total costs, which is given.
"Unfortunately it did not say in Trains which train was recovering more of it's cost..."
Yes, it was an interesting article particularly the idea of using existing attendants more effectively.
However, NRPC likely has no idea about cost recovery if they cannot produce Variable Costs as required by Congress.
If they have these numbers internally but refused to publish them they were in violation of the PRIIA law, if they do not have them as I suspect, then how would they know?
My current employer tracks a variable cost measure each week for every product line. Largely governments have no idea about this metric. But this is not unique. If you asked your local DOT about say the Average Cost of a highway project you would get a blank stare.
oltmanndWhen you have higher wage costs, you can't go about things the same way as everybody else or you will lose. The more Amtrak can sub-out, automate and self-serve, the better. I'll reitterate what I've said before. I don't need an attendant to serve me a can of soda and a cup of ice.
Actually you kind of do but do not realize it.
Coke only makes distribution machines with ICE hoppers on top..........someone has to fill them with ICE or they will run out. Even though McDonalds and other FF restaurants pass on cleaning them, the beverage distribution nozzles that mix the syrup and carbonated water have to be cleaned and santized on a regular basis (once a day or once a week depending on traffic)......if you want to be grossed out, unscrew the black nozzle cap at a busy and poorly managaged McDonalds and look at the funk underneath that is also making it into your Soda in pieces because some places skip this.
Syrup boxes need to be replaced. Additionally, said soda machine and countertop surrounds has to be cleaned, Ice machine has to be monitored periodically for stoppages (ice freezing together into larger blocks), Ice Machine water filters and Ice Machine Air filers have to be checked or replaced. Ice Machine per health department rules has to be emptied completely, drained and sanitized every so often (once a week). Your not going to get this done without a once or twice daily maintenance schedule. Really need it twice a day on a passenger train at a minimum, IMO. Although I have seen restaurants get by via skipping it all and only doing it once a week. Thats kind of gross, IMO and eventually they will be cited for it.
Believe it or not the Soda Machine alone needs a lot of maintenence per week. Ice Machine can do OK with weekly maintenence schedule but still there will be blockages of ice in the Ice machine someone will need to check on it every so often to make sure it continues to make Ice..........even the new Ice machines have this issue.
So I think you need at least a part time attendant.
BaltACDSubcontracting is a subject in labor agreement negotiations. How badly do you want your property to be the subject of a strike by disregarding negotiating an agreement?
Perhaps precisely the point of getting rid of the whole service subject to "agreement negotiations" -- for valid business reasons, of course -- and then setting up something new in a few months... like an outsourcing arrangement for the 'new' services that the marks are clamoring for by that time...
Subcontracting is a subject in labor agreement negotiations. How badly do you want your property to be the subject of a strike by disregarding negotiating an agreement?
schlimm Actually my point was similar to one you made long ago. No matter how good the management, Amtrak is stuck with wages + benefits far in excess of what is paid in the market for food staffing in a low end to middle range restaurant, so it cannot come close to covering costs.
Actually my point was similar to one you made long ago. No matter how good the management, Amtrak is stuck with wages + benefits far in excess of what is paid in the market for food staffing in a low end to middle range restaurant, so it cannot come close to covering costs.
When you have higher wage costs, you can't go about things the same way as everybody else or you will lose. The more Amtrak can sub-out, automate and self-serve, the better.
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