CMStPnP My next European trip is next June. Mostly free with my frequent traveler points Will be riding the TGV, Thalys, ICE and potentially the Eurostar. Can't wait.
My next European trip is next June. Mostly free with my frequent traveler points Will be riding the TGV, Thalys, ICE and potentially the Eurostar. Can't wait.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
CNSFForgive me, but why were we talking about highways in China a few posts back? Did I miss the part about the US interstate highway system covering its costs through user-fee revenue, or China's air being so clean that they could have the same per capita use of autos as the US with no repercussions?
I think highways/Interstates were mentioned by bluestreak and also sam1 (who seems to have departed the forum) for reasons unspecified. For a forum that is dedicated to "the future of passenger rail, and high speed proposals" there are surprisingly few folks on here who have ever ridden HSR trains (abroad, since there really aren't any in the US) as well as few who support HSR in the US.
Not exactly but India has converted a major line from 1.5 Kv DC to 25 Kv AC. Will allow HSR trains to continue with no change of trains. One reason given was the necessity to build more DC substations that did not have real estate. Another reason much more energy efficient.,
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/mumbai-network-switches-from-dc-to-ac.html
A series of articles on HSR from Fortune.
http://fortune.com/2015/06/04/americas-bet-on-bullet-trains/
Shhhh...... I am told by my rabbi-teachers never to speak ill of anyone unless it is to avert further harm. Could matters have been improved in the 19 years since I last rode one?
uote user="daveklepper"]Schlimm, I appreciate your comments on German dining cars. In reply, I was referring to my experience on truly high-speed trains, and I never had the opportunity to ride such a train in Germany. [/quote]
ICE trains on DB in Germany are their version of HSR (high-speed, French TGV). I assume your experience was on the French?
Schlimm, I appreciate your comments on German dining cars. In reply, I was referring to my experience on truly high-speed trains, and I never had the opportunity to ride such a train in Germany. I did ride lots of regular intercity German trains and ate in dining cars and found the experience on par with the near-best on pre-Amtrak dining cars, not quite Super Chief or Panama Limited or, later, Rio Grande Zephyr, but comperable to a good car on the ACL or Seabord or on an MP Eagle or New Haven Yankee Clipper, or a PRR corridor train, all very good if not excellent excellent. All decently priced and very courteously served. My experience with very expensive but good meals was in another European country, and most travelers would know which one and agree. And that also was only on the high-speed trains. Regular trains had reasonable meals, not quite as good as German trains, but good enough, and reasonably priced. And diners of this country often worked through on trains across boarders into other countries.
BaltACD schlimm daveklepper What limited experience I had with high-speed rail in Europe indicated that food and beverage service, while very very expensive, was also very very good. The price is hardly as you describe. Part of current menu on Deutsche Bahn dining cars (Bord Restaurant) on ICE trains: Sausages with potato salad (vinegar & oil) 7.80 EUR Baked potato with sour cream and slices of smoked salmon 7.90 EUR Penne with tomato sauce 7.90 EUR Penne with ham and cream sauce 8.90 EUR Chili con carne with Argentinian beef 8.20 EUR Potato and leek stew with smoked sausage slices 9.90 EUR Chicken fricassee with mushrooms and buttered rice 9.90 EUR Meatballs in caper sauce with buttered rice 10.90 EUR Beers (0.5L) 3.90-4.20 EUR Wines (0.25 L) 6.50-8.50 EUR The food is quite good and similar in price to a moderately priced restaurant Currently 1 Euro = $1.13 - in the recent past it has been $1.50 or so
schlimm daveklepper What limited experience I had with high-speed rail in Europe indicated that food and beverage service, while very very expensive, was also very very good. The price is hardly as you describe. Part of current menu on Deutsche Bahn dining cars (Bord Restaurant) on ICE trains: Sausages with potato salad (vinegar & oil) 7.80 EUR Baked potato with sour cream and slices of smoked salmon 7.90 EUR Penne with tomato sauce 7.90 EUR Penne with ham and cream sauce 8.90 EUR Chili con carne with Argentinian beef 8.20 EUR Potato and leek stew with smoked sausage slices 9.90 EUR Chicken fricassee with mushrooms and buttered rice 9.90 EUR Meatballs in caper sauce with buttered rice 10.90 EUR Beers (0.5L) 3.90-4.20 EUR Wines (0.25 L) 6.50-8.50 EUR The food is quite good and similar in price to a moderately priced restaurant
daveklepper What limited experience I had with high-speed rail in Europe indicated that food and beverage service, while very very expensive, was also very very good.
What limited experience I had with high-speed rail in Europe indicated that food and beverage service, while very very expensive, was also very very good.
The price is hardly as you describe.
Part of current menu on Deutsche Bahn dining cars (Bord Restaurant) on ICE trains:
Sausages with potato salad (vinegar & oil) 7.80 EUR
Baked potato with sour cream and slices of smoked salmon 7.90 EUR
Penne with tomato sauce 7.90 EUR
Penne with ham and cream sauce 8.90 EUR
Chili con carne with Argentinian beef 8.20 EUR
Potato and leek stew with smoked sausage slices 9.90 EUR
Chicken fricassee with mushrooms and buttered rice 9.90 EUR
Meatballs in caper sauce with buttered rice 10.90 EUR
Beers (0.5L) 3.90-4.20 EUR
Wines (0.25 L) 6.50-8.50 EUR
The food is quite good and similar in price to a moderately priced restaurant
Currently 1 Euro = $1.13 - in the recent past it has been $1.50 or so
If you can get a very tasty meal and a beer for $16.00 (service charge and tax included), most people would not consider that "very very expensive."
If you go the lounge car (Bord Bistro) you can get some excellent bratwurst in curry sauce with bread and a beer for about $7.00. And your train is moving at a speed up to 170 mph.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD schlimm In China, thousands demonstrate in the streets and face SWAT teams and repression to demand an HSR link to their city while elsewhere people sign petitions to bring HSR to their cities. Here we discuss table linens in dining cars and order baggage cars. http://www.ibtimes.com/china-protests-high-speed-rail-line-abandoned-city-triggers-violent-clashes-1926516 No - in the US, in general, HSR is viewed as a pipe dream that no one would use even if it were built. (the 20/400 foresight of the masses)
schlimm In China, thousands demonstrate in the streets and face SWAT teams and repression to demand an HSR link to their city while elsewhere people sign petitions to bring HSR to their cities. Here we discuss table linens in dining cars and order baggage cars. http://www.ibtimes.com/china-protests-high-speed-rail-line-abandoned-city-triggers-violent-clashes-1926516
In China, thousands demonstrate in the streets and face SWAT teams and repression to demand an HSR link to their city while elsewhere people sign petitions to bring HSR to their cities. Here we discuss table linens in dining cars and order baggage cars.
http://www.ibtimes.com/china-protests-high-speed-rail-line-abandoned-city-triggers-violent-clashes-1926516
No - in the US, in general, HSR is viewed as a pipe dream that no one would use even if it were built. (the 20/400 foresight of the masses)
The interest may be greater than you would judge from these pages. Even in the Passenger Forum, "The place to discuss Amtrak, the future of passenger rail, and high-speed proposals," many threads wax nostalgic about the past and contributors are largely anti-HSR. I wonder if age has a bearing along with interests? For example, what is the median age of members? Even among younger members, their connection to passenger rail may be only as hobbyists or fans of the Golden Era.
Seikan tunnel in Japan has first test train complete passage.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/high-speed/single-view/view/first-shinkansen-train-through-the-seikan-tunnel.html
China increasing investment in the China - Russia HSR
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/china-and-russia-step-up-high-speed-rail-cooperation.html?channel=523
As I understand it, in China it costs in the neighborhood of the equivalent of $30,000 to license a car. In our state it costs $75.
JL ChicagoNot wanting to start a fight but I doubt CMStPnP has ever traveled much outside of the USA. He makes a lot of comments that seem either made up or seriously out of date. My only complaint about the Mexico City subway is it is way over crowded, it's such a huge success. It's not dirty at all. And the trains in China are also crowded and very fast and spotlessly clean, like Japan.
Or it could be that I actually interact with locals as a Business Consultant should and I actually read the English version of the Global Times of China on occassion as well as subscribing to the UK Economist and reading it as well. All of them cover HSR and do not write about it as if they are in the fog of a controlled substance. I know for a lot of Americans one news source or a group of one sides news sources is enough. However, I try to search for the truth.
Never been to China but I have lived in Nothern Germany and traveled in Europe many times, my last trip being in 2000 and next trip being next year. My last trip to Mexico was December 2012 and I ate primarily in Mexico City Casitas vs the American Tourist hangouts......you can buy a full multi-course lunch in Mexico City for less than $6 at a Casita. The locals know where to go that you will not get sick but most Americans are too afraid to even try it or even ask. Heck if you read an on board forum in the United States about Mexico City it's riddled with paniced people thinking if they travel there the drug gangs will get them.
The rubber tired Mexico City Tram is considered a waste of money by the Middle Class Mexicans living in Mexico City that I worked with. Yes, people ride it but usually not liking the ride, the mode or the destinations. I am sure some Americans love it BUT they do not live there and nor do they need it. I also rode the private - public bus system in Mexico City....not because i wanted to but because the Mexicans I was with wanted to show me how crappy it was compared to what we have in the United States. Again I am sure it looked impressive to American tourists but I am not sure how many really had the courage to actually ride it versus taking pictures from the street.
Just trying to be realistic when presenting opinions.
Not wanting to start a fight but I doubt CMStPnP has ever traveled much outside of the USA. He makes a lot of comments that seem either made up or seriously out of date. My only complaint about the Mexico City subway is it is way over crowded, it's such a huge success. It's not dirty at all. And the trains in China are also crowded and very fast and spotlessly clean, like Japan. There is such a bias against HSR that I can only conclude that some people must be absolutely terrified by it, although God only know what they're afraid of. Maybe there are more like my cousin from Texas who refused to ride on the Acela with me when visiting Boston because she found out it went 150 mph! Too scary for her. Her pickup gets scary over 90 mph and that's fast enough for her! And I'm not making this up. Wonder how many think like her?
What's with the "Chicago passes taxes in perpetuity"?
Chicago has no income tax, my annual property tax on my Michigan Ave condo is less than 1% of what I paid for it, and the state income tax is 3.75%, less than any of the adjoining states.
Sam1As per Table 1-6 of National Transportation Statistics, at the end of 2013 the U.S. had 8,656,070 estimated roadway lane miles excluding National Park and Forest roads. Of this amount 2,640,861 miles or 30.5 per cent were ubran and 6,015,209 or 69.5 per cent were rural. Just 2.5 per cent of the lane miles were part of the Interstate Highway System, although to hear some folks tell it, interstate highways dominate the country's road system. At the end of 2013 the Interstate Highway System had 219,797 lane miles combining into 47,856 miles of highway. The Interstate Highway System does not contain the only expressway miles in the U.S. For example, TX130, which runs from Georgetown to Seguin Texas, is not part of the interstate system, but it is definitely expressway. The speed limits vary from 80 mph to 85 mph.
Just 2.5 per cent of the lane miles were part of the Interstate Highway System, although to hear some folks tell it, interstate highways dominate the country's road system.
At the end of 2013 the Interstate Highway System had 219,797 lane miles combining into 47,856 miles of highway.
The Interstate Highway System does not contain the only expressway miles in the U.S. For example, TX130, which runs from Georgetown to Seguin Texas, is not part of the interstate system, but it is definitely expressway. The speed limits vary from 80 mph to 85 mph.
This successfully introduces data which say nothing about the original point or the original question, and now introduces another consideration which was intentionally not incorporated in the original discussion (whether only "Interstate" lane miles count as 'expressways')
The discussion was only concerned with the 'lanes' that are directly comparable to HSR service in producing minimum travel time over appropriate distance.
I have no idea (perhaps schlimm does) whether anything less than a grade-separated, four-lane road (with or without median separation, which many Autobahns and the Pennsylvania Turnpike did not consider necessary for high speed) provides a workable high-speed alternative to HSR in whatever passes for remote or unpopulated regions of China. But I would find it unlikely, particularly if so much of the intercity road construction for automobile use is as recent as schlimm said it was.
Go back to your sources and report the lane-mileage of four-lane or greater grade-separated roads. That will at least be a meaningful start on meaningful statistics and not just a data dump. I recognize there will be a number of cases where multiple-lane highways that are not largely grade-separated can support high-speed traffic, but imho there will be a large lane-mileage of roads that, as in Memphis, are two-lane roads that were increased to four or six lanes for traffic reasons but are neither intended nor engineered for high-speed traffic even though many are nominally median-separated. They aren't expressways and shouldn't be 'counted' in the context of the discussion schlimm was proposing.
As per Table 1-6 of National Transportation Statistics, at the end of 2013 the U.S. had 8,656,070 estimated roadway lane miles excluding National Park and Forest roads. Of this amount 2,640,861 miles or 30.5 per cent were ubran and 6,015,209 or 69.5 per cent were rural.
blue streak 1 Spain opens another section of HSR of 155 Km. http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/spain-inaugurates-galicia-high-speed-line.html?channel=523
Spain opens another section of HSR of 155 Km.
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/spain-inaugurates-galicia-high-speed-line.html?channel=523
The top speed on that line is 200 km/h, eventually rising to 250 km/h.
SBB has started tests thru the Gotthard tunnel 200 KPH / ~ 125 MPH. Article indicates how much work still needed for 2016 roll out of service.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/sbb-prepares-for-gotthard-base-tunnel-opening.html
Blue Streak asked for figures. Schlimm provided figures. Supposedly these figures aren't right, or maybe they are.
"Lane-miles" per capita doesn't tell us anything meaningful. First we need a definition of what 'expressway' actually means -- I propose it means at least two lanes each way, median-separated (and largely grade-separated with interchanges rather than traffic-controlled intersections). Number of lanes above this might be valuable for determining congestion, but we're using the discussion to determine how much of an alternative to HSR is provided by the 'expressway' network.
I would also be interested to see the extent (if any) to which the Chinese highway system resembles much of the United States in having an older system of slower roads (both 2-lane and multiple-lane to lower standards) in parallel with the 'interstate'-style expressway system. I suspect most of the Chinese long-distance road network is new build to fairly modern standards.
Another question is that the discussion of HSR vs. road really applies only to the areas where significant traffic exists. Again that's not a 'per capita' (note sp.) metric. I don't know how many of the Chinese automobiles are actually driven long distances over the road network, but surely those data exist.
But to paraphrase Nigel Day: Less words, more data.
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