A concen no one has posted is are the LD trains getting enough power? The bitter cold presently would seem to dictate at least 2 operative HEP locos on any train. That would protect against most HEP failures. As well the ability of the revised DC GE traction motors to resist snow flash overs is unknown, Maybe the freight RRs need to add a AC motored loco to the front of the LD trains when the trains go into heavy snow? That certainly would help fluidity. Know feight locos are limited to 70 MPH but faster acceleration with an extra loco would mitigate the schedule time loss somewhat.
Sure hope this Jan 1st cold spell is not a harbringer of things to come. Will be interesting to see how the northern trains behave the next few days. Reports most welcome.
I have ridden the CZ from Denver to Emeryville three times as well as once from Emeryville to Denver. The best trips were during the winter; the snow covered scenery is fantastic, and the load factor is lower than during the summer months.
It appears that the heaviest passengers loads are between Chicago and Denver as well as Reno and Oakland. During my two winter trips from Denver to Emeryville it seemed that a substantial number of passengers who were on the train when it arrived in Denver continued onto Fraser. Presumably they were skiers.
When I last rode the train from Emeryville, which was three years ago, the train had a coach for Bay area passengers headed for the Reno gambling tables. It was the last coach, and it was cut off the train at Reno.
Kevin C. SmithThe heaviest passenger loads appear to be between Chicago-Denver and Reno-Sacramento & Oakland.
If that can be supported by ridership stats, that would suggest several city pairs could support shorter haul services with more than one train per day: CHI-DEN; CHI-Omaha and OAK-Reno.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Sam1According to another source that I read a year or so ago, although I don't remember it, only four per cent of the passengers on the California Zephyr ride from end point to end point.
According to Amtrak's Long Distance Train Facts, "Most passengers on long-distance trains ride to or from stations along the route, and not between the major cities that serve as route endpoints. For example, in fiscal year 2010 less than ten per cent of the 342,000 passengers on the Chicago to Los Angeles Southwest Chief rode from end to end. Over 90 per cent of the passengers boarded and/or detrained at the 31 intermediate stops along the 2,265 miles of track, many in small towns"
According to the same source, in 2010 the typical long distance train passenger rode for more than 600 miles, although Amtrak does not say how much more than 600 miles. According to the company the typical sleeping car passenger rides for roughly 1,000 miles.
According to another source that I read a year or so ago, although I don't remember it, only four per cent of the passengers on the California Zephyr ride from end point to end point.
CSSHEGEWISCH nyc#25 Trains to the west coast are important to intermeadiate towns. Only about 15% travel between the end points. If the long-distance trains are to be continued based on their service to intermediate points, then they should be configured for such service rather than cater to service between the endpoints. As such, perhaps said trains should look more like the "Lake Cities", the "Mainstreeter", the "City of New Orleans" and ATSF 23-24 in the years from 1965-1971 and be scheduled to provide better service to the intermediate cities.
nyc#25 Trains to the west coast are important to intermeadiate towns. Only about 15% travel between the end points.
Trains to the west coast are important to intermeadiate towns.
Only about 15% travel between the end points.
If the long-distance trains are to be continued based on their service to intermediate points, then they should be configured for such service rather than cater to service between the endpoints. As such, perhaps said trains should look more like the "Lake Cities", the "Mainstreeter", the "City of New Orleans" and ATSF 23-24 in the years from 1965-1971 and be scheduled to provide better service to the intermediate cities.
1. NYC 25: Could you provide some supporting evidence for your contention that only 15% ride terminal to terminal? Amtrak official analysis, for example
2. Paul is quite right. Run real services between the more significant intermediate points, which means more than one train per day in each direction.
V.PayneRegarding the size of the network, it would seem that agreement could be had that the network needs to be about 3 to 4 times the size it is in terms of trainmiles, with a route mileage roughly the size of the interstate, to provide resonable performance.
A network not based on current reality or what the public chooses. Few folks will ride trains rather than fly distances over 800 miles unless speeds are greatly increased and that will not be possible with the RoW controlled by the private freight lines. Deveoping frequent service in 110-125 mph ~500 mile corridors should be the priority. As the ridership there increases, it may cause the public to demand a broader network. But trains from the midwest to the west coast (2000 miles) will remain a curiosity or nostalgia cruise, not a major passenger transport mode.
The forecast for the NE is snow and ice over the Christmas period. Hopefully not bad enough to cause any Amtrak cancellations. Our airline always gets severe heart burn whenever this kind of weather comes at Christmas.
There are no empty seats for the many cancellations ( have known delayed passengers taking 5 days to get to destination ) Maybe if Amtrak can operate everything it will get a few extra passengers.
Regarding the size of the network, it would seem that agreement could be had that the network needs to be about 3 to 4 times the size it is in terms of trainmiles, with a route mileage roughly the size of the interstate, to provide resonable performance.
We have what is in essence a "demostration system" that has been left in place to cover the politicians rears should a major fuel crisis develop, so they could say, see I supported this too. Vople and the ICC knew that it was too small when set it up, but it was the best that could be done in those car crazy years. It also has saved many station locations that represent invaluable assets in terms of right of ways and acerage, though far too many have fallen that could have been useful (imagine the Atlanta or Houston terminals since razed).
Should the network actually be expanded it would have much better financial and consumer utility performance due to increased density of passenger miles per train mile (remember passenger trains do best hauling large numbers around and you need a lot of origin-destination pairs to have the market to do so).
To support this buildout from the infrastructure side the Federal government would first have to deal with then recover the massive handouts given to commercial road users (a true political wedge issue that could be exploited in the right hands). Then we would probably see a self liquidating infrastructure buildout to support timely movements, 52 mph average intermodal freight and 62 mph average passenger trains, at reasonable access costs, regardless of the weather.
To refer to a metro area of almost three million people as "much smaller" would provoke anger or derisive laughter from the residents. By that standard, Chicagoans should regard Atlanta as far smaller and New Yorkers regard Chicago as miniscule.
I'm curious. If being 2.74 million less in population is not "much smaller", what exactly would you consider "much smaller"?
Sam1It appears that the NARP statistics are pulled from Amtrak's fact sheets, although they provide greater historical depth.
The Amtrak fact sheet for Atlanta shows 99K boardings and alightings. NARP shows 95K. The difference is small, but it should be identical, suggesting NARP's numbers are unreliable. blue streak1's number for Atlanta was far off the mark and I have no clue from where it was obtained.
Threads have drifted far afield since I engaged in the discussions on Trains' forums and blogs.
It appears that the NARP statistics are pulled from Amtrak's fact sheets, although they provide greater historical depth.
Now for a weather question. The Buffalo area, according to the news reports, has received as much as seven feet of snow. What type of snow removal equipment would CSX have in the area to clear the snow off of its tracks?
Tampa-St.Pete MSA = 2.78 mil.; Atlanta MSA = 5.52 mil. so yes, Atlanta is twice as large, but Tampa is hardly much smaller. Also, though only two trains daily, Tampa also has a good Amtrak bus connection for the Silver Meteor. In any case the numbers you cited for Atlanta vs Williston were very inaccurate.
The points about Atlanta and tampa are ---
1. Tampa only has one train a day each way.
2. The Metropolitan population for Tampa - St. Pete is much smaller than Atlanta.
Anyway write most posts with questions to get all posters to realize that there is much to question.
blue streak 1 This thread has drifted far afield. For those of you who want to debate start a thread based on cities. Many factors. Acess, weather, station desireability, Location desireability, Available of other modes of transportation, number of trains thru station, population density, etc Extreme examples are Williston 51k passengers 25 mile pop 20K many of empire builder passengers go from small stations to near end points. Bad station Atlanta 11.5k pass 25mile pop 3.4M gets very few compared to say Tampa. Many Silver servicce Florida go inter - Florida. Census updates needed. NARP has a site that gives more than anyone would want to know about any station, route, 9 most traveled, etc. Have fun http://www.narprail.org/amtrak-ridership-statistics.html http://www.narprail.org/amtrak-ridership-statistics.html
This thread has drifted far afield.
For those of you who want to debate start a thread based on cities. Many factors. Acess, weather, station desireability, Location desireability, Available of other modes of transportation, number of trains thru station, population density, etc
Extreme examples are Williston 51k passengers 25 mile pop 20K many of empire builder passengers go from small stations to near end points. Bad station Atlanta 11.5k pass 25mile pop 3.4M gets very few compared to say Tampa. Many Silver servicce Florida go inter - Florida. Census updates needed.
NARP has a site that gives more than anyone would want to know about any station, route, 9 most traveled, etc. Have fun
http://www.narprail.org/amtrak-ridership-statistics.html
schlimm Agreed. There are several large cities/MSAs that are not served by any passenger rail services. Examples include Phoenix, Las Vegas, Columbus and Nashville. Apparently for those who claim LD services are vital in some manner, the residents of those locations and others don't count.
Agreed. There are several large cities/MSAs that are not served by any passenger rail services. Examples include Phoenix, Las Vegas, Columbus and Nashville. Apparently for those who claim LD services are vital in some manner, the residents of those locations and others don't count.
Johnny
schlimm Sam1 I did not consider a Standard Metropolitan Statistical Area or combined areas. Moreover, I did not include any cities that were within a reasonable driving distance of an Amtrak station. In 2010 the population of San Angelo was 97,492; Tyler was 96,945, Victoria was 62,601, Bryan was 76,218, and College Station was 94,063. The combined population of Sherman/Denison or the other way around in 2010 was 61,019. Why would you choose to not use Metropolitan Statistical Areas (MSAs) or even Combined Statistical Areas? That is the basis normally used for planning. San Angelo MSA 116,823. Tyler MSA 209,714 in 2010. Victoria MSA 111,163. Bryan-College Station MSA around 190,000 people. Sherman–Denison MSA 110,595.
Sam1 I did not consider a Standard Metropolitan Statistical Area or combined areas. Moreover, I did not include any cities that were within a reasonable driving distance of an Amtrak station. In 2010 the population of San Angelo was 97,492; Tyler was 96,945, Victoria was 62,601, Bryan was 76,218, and College Station was 94,063. The combined population of Sherman/Denison or the other way around in 2010 was 61,019.
Why would you choose to not use Metropolitan Statistical Areas (MSAs) or even Combined Statistical Areas? That is the basis normally used for planning.
San Angelo MSA 116,823.
Tyler MSA 209,714 in 2010.
Victoria MSA 111,163.
Bryan-College Station MSA around 190,000 people.
Sherman–Denison MSA 110,595.
For planning purposes the SMSA would be more definitive. However, I was not planning Amtrak service.
I referenced the cities in Texas with populations of at least 100,000, where the train stations are or would be located, to make a point.
Those who argue that Amtrak's long distance trains are important for the nation never justify the absence of service to so many sizeable communities in Texas and the nation. If the service is important for the U.S., than all the country's sizeable communities should be served.
Use whatever population number you like to set the cut-off or define sizeable. I could just as easily have used 50,000 or 25,000 or any other number.
Sam1I did not consider a Standard Metropolitan Statistical Area or combined areas. Moreover, I did not include any cities that were within a reasonable driving distance of an Amtrak station. In 2010 the population of San Angelo was 97,492; Tyler was 96,945, Victoria was 62,601, Bryan was 76,218, and College Station was 94,063. The combined population of Sherman/Denison or the other way around in 2010 was 61,019.
South Texas OMG. Please don't forget Bryan/College Station, Tyler, Sherman/Denison, Victoria, or San Angelo (which has no Interstate highway). Texas is ripe for the picking.
OMG. Please don't forget Bryan/College Station, Tyler, Sherman/Denison, Victoria, or San Angelo (which has no Interstate highway). Texas is ripe for the picking.
I used the 2010 U.S. Census Data, which is based on an actual count, as opposed to the 2013 data, which is a statistical estimate. The 100,000 cut-off was arbitrary.
I wanted to illustrate why I believe the argument that Amtrak is an important link in the nation's commercial passenger transport system is wrong.
If the national train system is an important link in the nation's passenger transport scheme, how come they don't serve every city in the United States with a population above a trigger point, i.e. population of 100,000?
I did not consider a Standard Metropolitan Statistical Area or combined areas. Moreover, I did not include any cities that were within a reasonable driving distance of an Amtrak station.
In 2010 the population of San Angelo was 97,492; Tyler was 96,945, Victoria was 62,601, Bryan was 76,218, and College Station was 94,063. The combined population of Sherman/Denison or the other way around in 2010 was 61,019.
Very limited service Albany - Buffalo friday. Maple Leaf both ways amd LSL originating out of NYP. Mostly sold out. Could be Amtrak anicipated fewer passengers than actually desire transportation or CSX limitations ? Could more cars be added to LSL and Maple leaf ?
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251627189955
There are communities served by the Empire Builder that are really isolated in winter when that train is cancelled.
It is still early but any one know if the modified Amtrak DC motored locos are doing better in the snow this year ? GE claimed new traction motors will not short out as much in the snow ?
blue streak 1 Amtrak continuing cancellations with no indication when service will start back up. http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251627181506
Amtrak continuing cancellations with no indication when service will start back up.
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251627181506
Weather is predicting another 2 feet around Buffalo in the next day.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
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