Route of the '400'

[railman]

In "honor" of my 400th post, I thought it was only fitting to start a topic about the Chicago & North Western's famous 400 streamliner. Although it drew traffic from my favorite, the Hi, it still was one of the many proud liners in the memories of many on the forums.

SO...let's hear it. The 400. Stories, technical debates, intersting facts, tidbits, you all know what to do. Let's check our ego's at the door and talk trains....discussion starts, now.

[railman]

CNW fans...are you there...don't tell me the Milwaukee Road has completely taken over here....

[Big_Boy_4005]

Ron, I think you're stuck with me for the time being. I actually live only a couple of miles from those tracks. The UP has been doing a lot of repair work around here and in western Wisconsin. Ever since they took on the Triple Crown roadrailer service, there has been a lot more traffic on the line.

I have an old story about this line.

One time when I was riding the Empire builder back from Chicago, it had to be back in the 70's, there was a derailment or something on the Milwaukee tracks. They ended up taking all the people off the train, that needed to go to Tomah, LaCrosse, Winona, and Red Wing, and put them on buses.

Anyone going to Minneapolis or beyond stayed on. The train was rerouted, non stop, to the Twin Cities over the Northwestern. What a slow, tedious, rough ride. Unfortunately it was winter and dark out. I was only in my teens, and really just wanted to get home. Now, I wish I had that chance again.

[Anonymous]

Back in ancient times the C&NW had a morning radio program "The 400 hour" at 7 a.m. daily on Chicago's WMAQ with Norman Ross (ex-Olympic swimming champion) as announcer and DJ playing classical music. Their signature theme at 7 a.m. was Tchaikowsky's Sleeping Beauty Waltz.

When elementary school let out at 3 p.m. I always waited a block away at Fullerton Ave. to watch the '400' go across about 3/4 of a mile to the west.

[dknelson]

I was pretty young when they stopped running the 400 -- although the CNW did continue to run a Chicago/Minneapolis train thereafter, without the observation car and with some other equipment changes. My dad said that in the 1930s and 1940s small crowds would gather in Milwaukee and suburbs to watch it go by. He especially remembered that the steam locomotive had a special revolving headlight that faced up into the sky and that you would see that light against the sky for miles before the train came in view.
If you see a photo of the steamlined observation car off the 400 you'll notice an odd ridge on the roof at the back. It was designed to keep a flow of air moving so that the rear windows would stay cleaner.
In my hometown of South Milwaukee there was a tavern right across the tracks from the C&NW depot and it featured a green and yellow train in neon, made to look as though it was moving -- sort of a miniature version of the famous neon sign at the downtown Milwaukee depot. I cannot recall if the tavern was called The 400 or The Streamliner.
And slightly off topic, there was a beer named after the train: Foxhead 400 beer.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by railman

CNW fans...are you there...don't tell me the Milwaukee Road has completely taken over here....

Theres one right here[8D][:D]. I have the book " The 400 Story",well written and lots of pictures too. Also there is the "400 Trail " in Wisconsin Dells. Stop by the CNWHS booth at Trainfest in Milwaukee, at the State Fairgrounds,on November 13 & 14. Become a member and I'll set you up with a few goodies there. Hope to see you there,and whom ever wants to talk.
Andrew

[wcfan4ever]

I'm too young to have seen the 400's. They did pass through Manitowoc where I live and my dad watched them countless times. There is a photo of one crossing the high-bridge in Manitowoc in the Farewell to CNW issue of Pacific RailNews. I would have done anything to see a train pass through Manitowoc at 70mph. Today, top speed on any line in Manitowoc is 10mph!

[railman]

Good to see there are plenty of North Western fans here.

[Noah Hofrichter]

cnwfan11:

QUOTE: Also there is the "400 Trail " in Wisconsin Dells

Actually that would be near the Dells, it starts in a little town called Reedsburg, where I live. I'm to young to ever have seen the 400, let alone to remember the CNW, but i do enjoy watching the Wisconsin and Southern Railroad switch the line. It's severed at my town. And now the top speed on the line is 25, and in some places it's even down to 10, it's too bad. Sometimes, while watching the WSOR engine switch I think of how neat it would be to have seen some of the CNW steamers doing the job instead.

Noah

[CG9602]

I, too, have been fascinated with the 400. I'm sorry that Amtrak picked the MILW's route between MSP & CHI, but, then, I understand that perhaps the CNW just didn't have the finances to keep the route up to passenger train sppeds at the time. Amtrak detoured over the route in the late 1980s, early 1990s, and in 1995 (I think) when the Mississippi river flooded out the CP/SOO/MILW route. There has been talk over the years to get some sort of service, commuter or otherwise between Eau Claire & Saint Paul, but I suspect the UP would be quick to either demand a prince's ransom or reject it out-of-hand. I wouldn't have minded at all taking the train between St. Paul & southern Wisconsin during my college years in the late 1980s, but then the train would have to stop in Madison, and that is something Amtrak has yet to do.

I regret to leartn just how poorly the line has been maintained in the past few decades - and to think that in the 1930s - late 1950s the train went over 100 mph over that route on a regular basis. I'm pleased that the UPRR has seen the light, and is going to spend some money on upgrades.

[Anonymous]

When I was a kid, my Grandmother lived three blocks from the CNW station in Oshkosh, Wi. A highlight of our visits there was always meeting the double-decker 400's heading to and from Milwaukee.

[eolafan]

I remember that there is (was?) a "400 Bar" in Altoona, WI right across the street from the old C&NW yard and roundhouse there. The original 400 to Minneapolis used to stop right there in the old days, and the old railroaders used to tip a few at the 400 bar.

[Anonymous]

There was a 400 bar in Appleton, too. Also right across from the downtown station. Later, it became Crabby Appleton's.

[railman]

Did the 400 stop in the Milwaukee Depot in Minneapolis? Or did they got to the GN or what?

[Pennsy58]

Hope I don't offend anyone, as I do not know the CNW very well. But what does "route of the 400" mean? It appears the 400 was a particular passenger route. But the term "400", where does it come from?

[Anonymous]

That the train made 400 miles in (approx.) 4 hours.

[Anonymous]

I think it was 400 miles in 400 minutes.

[railman]

As the fame of the 400 spread, many destinations that were not 400 miles or minutes from the start got the '400' name to provide a fleet feeling. So there was more than one, however it got it's start as the "Twin Cities 400", if my memory serves me correctly.

[greyhounds]

I have been driving, sometimes flying, the "400" route round trip pretty much weekly for the past six months.

I live in nothern Illinois and have been on assignment in Minneapolis. I think every time I've pointed my Ford toward Eau Claire on a Friday going home I've wished aloud for the '400'. It would be so very nice to throw my bag overhead in the rack, buy a beer, and RE-lax. Instead, it's coffee and boredom as the Interstate and dead deer go by.

Flying isn't really a good option, although I've done it a few times. Air fares on the route are high, I have to rent a car (which isn't real cheap either), and by the time I go through security, the usually delayed flight, and the rent a car line, I don't save any significant time.

If the '400' could just be brought back - and if they would serve Leininkughel Beer - which is brewed in Chipiwa Falls. ... It's just a though I have on the way to Eau Claire.

[eolafan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lincoln5390

I think it was 400 miles in 400 minutes.

Correct [:)] my friend...the original 400 was to become the Twin Cities 400 when more trains were added by CNW. The original train did (approx) 400 miles from CNW Station in Chicago to the depot in Minneapolis in (approx) 400 minutes... a blistering average speed of one mile a minute...or 60 mph, and that was in steam days, all service needs included!

[CG9602]

I should also point out the 400 Club in the Mini-Apple, East Minneapolis. Still in existance, with live music just about every day of the week.

The original 400 stopped at SPUD, and then GN station in Minneapolis.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by railman

Did the 400 stop in the Milwaukee Depot in Minneapolis? Or did they got to the GN or what?

I think it was the Great Northern depot. I have photos of it on the stone arch bridge, and those tracks went to the GN. The old C&NW coach yards are over by the Uof M in SE Minneapolis, that too supports that.

The Rock Island and a couple of others used the Milwaukee Road depot. I think Soo was one of those.

[jeaton]

Two items in the December Trains will be of special interest to C&NW fans. The Map of the Month lists the names and the routes of passenger trains on railroads that used "brand" name fleets. For example, the UP City trains, the Milwaukee Hiawathas and the 13 C&NW 400's. Route miles are shown and the namesake Twin Cities 400 had a 419 mile route between Chicago and Minneapolis. As I recall, the scheduled running time was 400 minutes as mentioned or, of course, 6 hours, 40 minutes. (4 hours would have been a tad fast.)

In Railroadreading, Bruce Feld tells his story of hanging out at the C&NW's Milwaukee Lakefront Roundhouse in the 1950's and 60's. Fun reading.

Jay

[dknelson]

I believe "The 400" was a bit of a play on words. Yes it was approximately 400 miles in about 400 minutes, but in addition at the time "The 400" was sometimes used as a slang term for what was also known as "the social register" -- the elite in Manhattan and the east coast.
Similarly the FFV passenger train (I think C&O??) was known as the "fast flying virginian" but it too was a play on words, as FFV was common short hand for "First Families of Virginia" -- the landed gentry and elite who could trace their families to the 1600s and such.
These days advertising that appeals to an elite notion is not very popular but in earlier days the railroads wanted to sell the idea of class. That is why the NY Central had you walk a red carpet to get on the Twentieth Century Limited and why the Santa Fe's Super Chief would be met by photographers on arrival to see what celebrities were aboard -- tipped off by the ATSF publicity department most likely.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the memories guys! I only happened upon this site because I was surfing for info on the 400. I used to take the 400 or the Hiawatha to Chicago from central WI all the time. The 400 stopped in Wisconsin Rapids, but often we would catch the Hiawatha down in Adams instead as the trains did not always run to Rapids. It did in 1965 though when I was living in Chicago though, and commuting home.

You folks all seem to know so much about trains (and other than loving to travel on them, I know nothing), so could someone answer this question for me. Why, as I child, do I recall seeing the "Hiawatha" name on the train and yet when I see photos or replicas now, the name never appears on the train. Am I dreaming up something that never was?? Thanks in advance for the answer.

Rhonda [:I]

[Anonymous]

Hi GreatBear47,
Welcome to the forum.

Don't know if this is what you might remember, but the SkyTop Lounge car of the Hiawatha (the last car of the train) has the name written on its silver band.

http://us.st2.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/internethobbies_1817_165001305

[jeaton]

Great Bear. I think the C&NW 400 was your train at Adams, and you would have taken a Milwaukee Road Hiawatha to New Lisbon and transfered to the the Milwaukee Valley line train to the Rapids. As I recall, the Hiawatha name was on the streamlined steam locomotives, gone before your time, but did not appear on the exterior of the diesels or the passenger cars. I am quite sure that the "Hiawatha" name was found on the interior of cars and was used extensively on literature and signs. I made many trips between Chicago and Wausau or Merrill in the late 50's and early 60', but at least for me, the intervening 40 years has caused some of the details to fade.

Try a Google search on "Milwaukee Road Hiawatha" and you are likely to find many photos of the equipment, possibly including interior photos.

[CG9602]

I have to agree with jeaton on this on, Great Beard. While the CNW served Wisc. Rapids, it wasn't the 400 by any stretch of the imagination. When you disembarked at Adams, that was the 400. You must have transferred to the MILW soon thereafter. I can understand how one might reverse the two, though.

[jeaton]

tomtrain

I was thinking of that possibility, but didn't have time to look into it. Nice to have one of those cars still riding the rails, at least for special occasions.

Jay

[bobwilcox]

Originally posted by CG9602

I, too, have been fascinated with the 400. I'm sorry that Amtrak picked the MILW's route between MSP & CHI, but, then, I understand that perhaps the CNW just didn't have the finances to keep the route up to passenger train sppeds at the time.

When Amtrak was selecting routes the C&NW made a presentation about why the MILW was the best route between Chicago and St. Paul. It saved a lot of dicussion late about whether Amtrak was paying their fair share over the NorthWestern.

Bob

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