But it isn't how large the subsidies but how intelligent. If they are band aid applications of money they are expensive and wasteful. If Amtrak were to be able to make five and ten year plans and get the needed amount of money to apply those plans then the money wouldn't be wasteful and we wouldn't be marching in place all these years. Amtrak should swim all the waters instead of tiptoe with their nostrils just above the water surface.
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aegrotatioschlimm Please!! In the 43 year history of Amtrak, "doing away with service entirely" was on the agenda of POTUS at most 20 of those years, if that many. And how do you explain the Congressional authorization and Amtrak purchase of Superliners I and II fleets, the Horizon fleet and the Acela fleet? They surely were given permission to buy an awful lot of cars (~2000) for a terminally ill organization. Amtrak has no one to blame but itself on this issue, at least. Facing the truth is the first step in recovery and growth. Honestly, the government paid for several generations of turbo-powered passenger trains and another several generations of electric locomotives, not to mention diesels. And not to mention the hugely successful Superliner, Amfleet, and Viewliner cars, and the already mentioned Acela and even Metroliner II (Amfleet with AEM-7 locomotives). This idea that Amtrak was always meant to fail has to be refuted by a clear vision of history, don't you think?
schlimm Please!! In the 43 year history of Amtrak, "doing away with service entirely" was on the agenda of POTUS at most 20 of those years, if that many. And how do you explain the Congressional authorization and Amtrak purchase of Superliners I and II fleets, the Horizon fleet and the Acela fleet? They surely were given permission to buy an awful lot of cars (~2000) for a terminally ill organization. Amtrak has no one to blame but itself on this issue, at least. Facing the truth is the first step in recovery and growth.
Please!! In the 43 year history of Amtrak, "doing away with service entirely" was on the agenda of POTUS at most 20 of those years, if that many. And how do you explain the Congressional authorization and Amtrak purchase of Superliners I and II fleets, the Horizon fleet and the Acela fleet? They surely were given permission to buy an awful lot of cars (~2000) for a terminally ill organization. Amtrak has no one to blame but itself on this issue, at least. Facing the truth is the first step in recovery and growth.
This idea that Amtrak was always meant to fail has to be refuted by a clear vision of history, don't you think?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Amtrak at its inception was to remove the burden of passenger train service and services from the railroads. Many believed by doing so passenger service would just disappear anyway because there highway and airlines were the only ways man was going to travel anyway so why set up a permanent and long range plan and funding program for passenger trains. But the public decided they wanted passenger trains and Congress and Presidents have played with it ever since. Big business freight railroads feel betrayed by the public and government has placated them by allowing merger after merger after merger. Early on some Congressmen fought for trains to their hometowns for themselves and their constituents despite market research which said not to. So Amtrak had to proved these routes and trains at a huge loss while research and demand proven routes had to be ignored. So Amtrak was the celebrated failure the government, the highway and air lobby, and the freight railroads had hoped it would be. But still the public wanted its passenger trains. Soon, urban planners and environmentalists were promoting the idea that trains could and should move people in densely populated areas. Slowly minds in Congress and government are coming around the believing in passenger trains. And slowly the railroads have come around to see where if they play ball they may get a better railroad to serve their customers and money and more cooperation and help from the governments involved. It doesn't apply to all railroads and not all routes. But the need for trucks to be taken off highways and put on trains has a profitable ring to it, so the railroads want help, guidance and, hopefully, financial aid, to make it happen; and maybe passenger trains will work into the equations as well. Amtrak is with us to stay. But it may change form and purpose from time to time. Congress is made up mainly of lawyers and moneymen with very little management experience much less railroad freight or, passenger transportation experience, They are the bean counters who hold the purse strings which are either tied in knots or loosened somewhat with every budget. No business which is supposed to provide service or products operates on such short term strategy and financial planning and succeeds. It is a miracle Amtrak has lasted this long.
aegrotatio This idea that Amtrak was always meant to fail has to be refuted by a clear vision of history, don't you think?
No!
The best Amtrak has been able to get out of Congress is lip service abd just enogh $$$ to limp into next year. The fact that there is even a Amtrak today is a testiment to their employees.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
schlimmPlease!! In the 43 year history of Amtrak, "doing away with service entirely" was on the agenda of POTUS at most 20 of those years, if that many. And how do you explain the Congressional authorization and Amtrak purchase of Superliners I and II fleets, the Horizon fleet and the Acela fleet? They surely were given permission to buy an awful lot of cars (~2000) for a terminally ill organization. Amtrak has no one to blame but itself on this issue, at least. Facing the truth is the first step in recovery and growth.
True. But not like Joe Boardman who grew up through agencies of bus transit and airports then into NYS DOT to the US FRA and to Amtrak. He has worked all levels up to where he is today and has successfully operated these agencies' operations while dealing with political pressures from parties, legislatures, and executive powers of government and the public....more so than any other Amtrak President I believe. He has not been perfect but he has been successful in keeping Amtrak running. One of the things he has been pushing for since the beginning of his tenure is for longer term financing and planning. I know the likes of Don Phillips aren't as enamoured with him as when he began this job. But I am not sure, and maybe they aren't sure, of what they expected of Boardman. Or what they expected of the politics of the job at this time.
There were other Amtrak presidents with rail or transit backgrounds, and not just in accounting. Reistrup, Kummant and Warrington come to mind.
schlimm henry6Easy. What Amtrak has gotten has been bare bones because of overall opposition. If all of Congress and the full force of the Executive branch are or were behind Amtrak, Amtrak wouldn' t be behind. You are just making excuses. My point was if Amtrak had been better run with some forethought (not really "vision") about needs, then they would have retained more existing equipment to use as spares, which is, after all, the title of this thread.
henry6Easy. What Amtrak has gotten has been bare bones because of overall opposition. If all of Congress and the full force of the Executive branch are or were behind Amtrak, Amtrak wouldn' t be behind.
You are just making excuses. My point was if Amtrak had been better run with some forethought (not really "vision") about needs, then they would have retained more existing equipment to use as spares, which is, after all, the title of this thread.
Right. But don't get "forethought about needs" from bean counters and politicians.who either don't understand passenger trains/railroading or do and want to get right of them. I'm not making excuses but pointing out the uneven and often non operating railroader oversight of the operation. Gunn was the best railroader they've had and the pushed him out. Claytor was an old line railroader but from corporate and not operations, so he appeared to be flat. Boardman has had both political experiences having worked through transportation and transit agencies and the State of NY before going to the FRA. Has he been perfect? No. But he as lasted better than others because he knows how to step around the cow pies of politics and still keep the machine operating, even progressing. He has probably gotten more out of Congress with any eye to the future than any other Amtrak leader. He may not be the contemporary business whip cracker, investor boy by which today's CEO's are measured. But he does seem to keep Amtrak on track and running while asking for long range help. And I believe his political background allows him to be heard better than his predecessors. because of that.
schlimm henry6 Poor planning. Airline executives heading Amtrak. Congress demanding routes. The executive branch wanting passenger trains to be abolished. Was it Amtrak's poor planning or the desire of government and freight rail to do away with the service entirely? Please!! In the 43 year history of Amtrak, "doing away with service entirely" was on the agenda of POTUS at most 20 of those years, if that many. And how do you explain the Congressional authorization and Amtrak purchase of Superliners I and II fleets, the Horizon fleet and the Acela fleet? They surely were given permission to buy an awful lot of cars (~2000) for a terminally ill organization. Amtrak has no one to blame but itself on this issue, at least. Facing the truth is the first step in recovery and growth.
henry6 Poor planning. Airline executives heading Amtrak. Congress demanding routes. The executive branch wanting passenger trains to be abolished. Was it Amtrak's poor planning or the desire of government and freight rail to do away with the service entirely?
Poor planning. Airline executives heading Amtrak. Congress demanding routes. The executive branch wanting passenger trains to be abolished. Was it Amtrak's poor planning or the desire of government and freight rail to do away with the service entirely?
Easy. What Amtrak has gotten has been bare bones because of overall opposition. If all of Congress and the full force of the Executive branch are or were behind Amtrak, Amtrak wouldn' t be behind.
NorthWest The Metroliner shells seem to be perfect candidates for rebuilding into 'Amfleet III' cars, as the cab cars were. The stainless steel shells have many more years on them. Money is probably the biggest problem. I think most are still sitting at one of the large shops.
The Metroliner shells seem to be perfect candidates for rebuilding into 'Amfleet III' cars, as the cab cars were. The stainless steel shells have many more years on them. Money is probably the biggest problem. I think most are still sitting at one of the large shops.
Unlike the private passenger lines prior to 1971, Amtrak did not keep old, fully depreciated equipment in storage for peak demand periods. There were many heritage cars than were updated that could hve been retained. And what about the former Metroliners? Some were stripped of motors, etc. and used, but many more could have been retained and used on the NEC, locomotive-hauled, as the PRR used P70s at holiday rushes. Poor planning.
aegrotatio These are from Chicago (which VRE bought for one dollar) ... I can't find any further information. Anyone care to comment?
These are from Chicago (which VRE bought for one dollar) ... I can't find any further information. Anyone care to comment?
Even with the corruption, and the salt damage to the infrastructure, and the chronic congestion there, I'd have paid more for Chicago. Wish I'd known.
Keep in mind that having that 90% availability is in part due to the fact that these cars can be "unloaded" at a pretty darn fast rate, and can do quite a bit of miles before most servicing. Also keep in mind that people as a nature now are impatient. The non tourist train traveler wants ONTIME. Having a 90% plus availability is critical for almost any delay, backup, etc. This "availability" now includes buses in many areas where weather has been a problem, and "freight goes first" Managing Passenger train travel sucks, and as mentioned above, the private RR's wanted OUT asap...I see a big issue with adding a second rail in some areas where Amtrak only needs "light rail" and the RR's will ONLY do the work ( being subsidized) where a Heavy duty freight rail is installed. Amtrak could "lease" out older extras to Heritage rails etc, for passenger service, while keeping them available in an emergency...( they could donate the lease and write it off as an expense to a non profit )
This poster maintains that not only does Amtrak not have any spare equipment but they need more operating equipment than present inventory. Amtrak per the latest operating report says its availability is near 90%. IMHO that is a way too much. Any airline does not even come close to that figure and suspect that the rest of the world's RRs do not have that rate of availability. Also much of the availability is at the NEC which has the comfort of having almost all equipment laying over at night getting PM that the long distance route trains do not have. All any of us have to do is look at the mileage on the LD cars versus the NEC, Midwest, and west coast equipment..
If spare equipment was available then it could be used profitability during the high seasons ------ Easter, summertime, Thanksgiving - New Years. Other times rotate non needed equipment thru heavy PM to give better and more reliable service. As well very clean equipment.
Also, Amtrak had quite a bit of heritage equipment. Some got updated to newer FRA requirements, some wore out. I suppose some of that was sold to private buyers, but much was scrapped?
I might modify that by pointing out the rails were buying a lot of new, lightweight equipment postwar for nearly 20 years until the early to mid-60s. That left a lot of older equipment unused; some got scrapped, some got converted into work train equipment; some became the extra pool, replacing even older cars.
Excellent point by Balt. Those train-offs had been freeing up equipment since at least the 1930s -- whereas Amtrak has been mostly adding on.
The one thing to remember about railroad operated passenger service in the years leading up to Amtrak. All the carriers were abandoning unprofitable runs as fast as they would work the legal process to bring about the abandonments. Each abandonment freed up equipment that could then be used at peak periods or putting on extra trains for special occasions. Once a train off happened, the equipment for the train was not immediately scrapped - it became extra equipment, ready for extra service. Amtrak does not have this situation, nor do any of the commuter agencies.
Amtrak is more efficient than the federal Government. Thats a huge step in the right direction... Amtrak would need a huge car storage facility to make the investment worth it. Put it in Chicago....
schlimm Of course many of the passengers on those "student specials" were pretty drunk, so they probably were unaware of anything.
Of course many of the passengers on those "student specials" were pretty drunk, so they probably were unaware of anything.
We've got to stop comparing passenger railroading, especially commuter trains, with railroading before, say, 1970. Private railroads up to that time had services with enough plus a few spare cars. They could also pull down from mainline services where, when, and if they had such. They could also just borrow from the neighbors...steam heat, air hose, 4ft 8 and one half in gauge. Yeah, that'll work. Today, there aren't compatible neighbors and more often than not, you are the neighbors anyway. In the NY City area besides Amtrak there are the LIRR, MNRR, NJT, SEPTA railroads with each of them also having differences inside their own systems. Plus these systems are all government agencies so they are not funded too well, especially not far beyond the next election; politicians only accept spares and redundancies in their pay packages. And if there are serviceable spars they may be hundreds of miles away. So, hurray for Chicago's MTA for addressing the problem head on with an expected head on collision with politicians and others who don't understand railroading and service.
dakotafredI too remember some of the antiques fondly, my experience being mostly on the New York Central and Rock Island, also in the '60s. They were like time machines, giving a fan a firsthand experience of yesterday.
They were really something on the IC, as those old 6-wheel trucked heavyweights got up to some pretty high speeds on the old IC dragstrip, where trains regularly hit 90-100 mph in those days. Of course many of the passengers on those "student specials" were pretty drunk, so they probably were unaware of anything.
Amtrak is raked over the coals for being the poster child for inefficency by the people who control their purse strings. To even hint at having 'excess' equipment on the property for supporting On Time originations in the face of operating realities would turn those coals into a oxygen fed forge for those who want to do away with Amtrak and rail passenger transportation.
We are in the 21st Century - the age of Just In Time inventory scheduling and Forensic Accountants that look for every nit to pick. Amtrak has more than enough nits that are already being picked - many by the population of this forum.
Extra equipment is something that would be nice, but it is something that cannot be justified in the world of the 'right sized' organization.
I would support the expense. Especially in light of this winter's experience, Amtrak ought to be able to make a good argument that it would be money saved over delayed turnaround of equipment (and crews) and customers turned away to make other arrangements.
I too remember some of the antiques fondly, my experience being mostly on the New York Central and Rock Island, also in the '60s. They were like time machines, giving a fan a firsthand experience of yesterday.
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