Chicago METRA has announced that they want to lease some extra cars to prevent overcrowding when equipment goes out of service. That is raise spares to 10 . This especially during the winter months.
Unfortunately our wise pols have decided that there is not a bigger need for spare equipment. Do we know of any rail agency that has not experienced shortage of equipment both this winter and other times ? That is from Amtrak on down.
Some of us posters have maintained that there is not a need for more spares especially Amtrak. AMT seems to run about 10% out of service. The almost melt down at Chicago's Amtrak yard and also Metra may bode the lesson that there is not enough spares.
Where can spare equipment be found ? I just read that the older VRE equipment that was to be used for carrying military persons to the Pentagon is now up for sale. So where do other poster know of equipment. The list should be broken down to list now available, short term maintenance needed ( say 2 months ), and long term. As well break out those available for push pull or not. let us not go into new service but just present train service.
Here is a link for the METRA announcement.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/25691005-418/metra-may-lease-train-cars-it-sold-off-to-ease-crowding-during-storms.html
Maybe a separate list of locomotives that are needed should be started in a separate thread ?
How many spares to carry on the roster is not an easy question to answer. Most larger railroads will carry about 10% spares to cover shop time, monthly inspections, etc. With suburban passenger cars for a public agency, the issue of waste and other political red herrings will always come up. Car shortages are a public relations nightmare but how much excess capacity to maintain is hard to determine when public funding is involved.
Spares are needed. In the case of Amtrak, the back shops seem slow and much pricier than other ones. I think Don pointed that out so maybe more work can be subcontracted? It seems to me some Metra line trains are beyond capacity at rush hour even in decent weather.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
The Michigan cars cited, are mostly stored in the former PRR yard in Cadillac. Apparently they are occasionally rotated down to the Owosso shop for refurbishing. There are about 2 dozen ex-Metra stainless bi-levels. They have sat here for a few years for the proposed Detroit-Ann Arbor commuter service, which does not seem imminent.
Did you here about the Amtrak Chairman who was reduced to panhandling? He stood in a corner of Penn Station saying, "Spare trains? Spare trains?"
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
CSSHEGEWISCH How many spares to carry on the roster is not an easy question to answer. Most larger railroads will carry about 10% spares to cover shop time, monthly inspections, etc. With suburban passenger cars for a public agency, the issue of waste and other political red herrings will always come up. Car shortages are a public relations nightmare but how much excess capacity to maintain is hard to determine when public funding is involved.
Here is where you want to look...
http://sterlingrail.com/
With intercity service:
Our pre-Amtrak passenger railroads had been around for a long time. As noted on this forum before, most had accumulated a lot of old equipment that was low-cost to keep and could be pressed into service for holiday traffic bulges and emergencies. Many of us older folks will remember occasional rides on these antiques.
What I'm getting at: Amtrak is no spring chicken itself any longer, and has had time to build up a standby inventory of its own. I wonder to what extent it has done so ... as opposed to junking older equipment. (I have read of the latter happening.) Of course, I can just see certain congressmen jumping on Amtrak for ANY extra cost associated with owning seldom-used cars.
I also remember that the thanks the old passenger railroads got for stretching to accommodate their holiday crowds was often: "Look at this old piece of junk. Next time I'll take the bus, or fly."
dakotafred With intercity service: Our pre-Amtrak passenger railroads had been around for a long time. As noted on this forum before, most had accumulated a lot of old equipment that was low-cost to keep and could be pressed into service for holiday traffic bulges and emergencies. Many of us older folks will remember occasional rides on these antiques. What I'm getting at: Amtrak is no spring chicken itself any longer, and has had time to build up a standby inventory of its own. I wonder to what extent it has done so ... as opposed to junking older equipment. (I have read of the latter happening.) Of course, I can just see certain congressmen jumping on Amtrak for ANY extra cost associated with owning seldom-used cars. I also remember that the thanks the old passenger railroads got for stretching to accommodate their holiday crowds was often: "Look at this old piece of junk. Next time I'll take the bus, or fly."
All true. Recall in the old days, the passenger lines could call on a large pool from Pullman for sleeper cars. Keeping older equipment for peak demand use properly maintained costs money. Are you supportive of that expense? And Amtrak's shops are expensive and don't seem up to the task in terms of capacity. It does seem, however, that Amtrak retired some cars built after 1971 or shortly before (Metroliner shells?) that could have been kept.
I remember riding those "old piece(s) of junk" in the mid-60s on the IC at holiday breaks. Fantastic!!
I would support the expense. Especially in light of this winter's experience, Amtrak ought to be able to make a good argument that it would be money saved over delayed turnaround of equipment (and crews) and customers turned away to make other arrangements.
I too remember some of the antiques fondly, my experience being mostly on the New York Central and Rock Island, also in the '60s. They were like time machines, giving a fan a firsthand experience of yesterday.
Amtrak is raked over the coals for being the poster child for inefficency by the people who control their purse strings. To even hint at having 'excess' equipment on the property for supporting On Time originations in the face of operating realities would turn those coals into a oxygen fed forge for those who want to do away with Amtrak and rail passenger transportation.
We are in the 21st Century - the age of Just In Time inventory scheduling and Forensic Accountants that look for every nit to pick. Amtrak has more than enough nits that are already being picked - many by the population of this forum.
Extra equipment is something that would be nice, but it is something that cannot be justified in the world of the 'right sized' organization.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
dakotafredI too remember some of the antiques fondly, my experience being mostly on the New York Central and Rock Island, also in the '60s. They were like time machines, giving a fan a firsthand experience of yesterday.
They were really something on the IC, as those old 6-wheel trucked heavyweights got up to some pretty high speeds on the old IC dragstrip, where trains regularly hit 90-100 mph in those days. Of course many of the passengers on those "student specials" were pretty drunk, so they probably were unaware of anything.
We've got to stop comparing passenger railroading, especially commuter trains, with railroading before, say, 1970. Private railroads up to that time had services with enough plus a few spare cars. They could also pull down from mainline services where, when, and if they had such. They could also just borrow from the neighbors...steam heat, air hose, 4ft 8 and one half in gauge. Yeah, that'll work. Today, there aren't compatible neighbors and more often than not, you are the neighbors anyway. In the NY City area besides Amtrak there are the LIRR, MNRR, NJT, SEPTA railroads with each of them also having differences inside their own systems. Plus these systems are all government agencies so they are not funded too well, especially not far beyond the next election; politicians only accept spares and redundancies in their pay packages. And if there are serviceable spars they may be hundreds of miles away. So, hurray for Chicago's MTA for addressing the problem head on with an expected head on collision with politicians and others who don't understand railroading and service.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
schlimm Of course many of the passengers on those "student specials" were pretty drunk, so they probably were unaware of anything.
Of course many of the passengers on those "student specials" were pretty drunk, so they probably were unaware of anything.
Amtrak is more efficient than the federal Government. Thats a huge step in the right direction... Amtrak would need a huge car storage facility to make the investment worth it. Put it in Chicago....
The one thing to remember about railroad operated passenger service in the years leading up to Amtrak. All the carriers were abandoning unprofitable runs as fast as they would work the legal process to bring about the abandonments. Each abandonment freed up equipment that could then be used at peak periods or putting on extra trains for special occasions. Once a train off happened, the equipment for the train was not immediately scrapped - it became extra equipment, ready for extra service. Amtrak does not have this situation, nor do any of the commuter agencies.
Excellent point by Balt. Those train-offs had been freeing up equipment since at least the 1930s -- whereas Amtrak has been mostly adding on.
I might modify that by pointing out the rails were buying a lot of new, lightweight equipment postwar for nearly 20 years until the early to mid-60s. That left a lot of older equipment unused; some got scrapped, some got converted into work train equipment; some became the extra pool, replacing even older cars.
Also, Amtrak had quite a bit of heritage equipment. Some got updated to newer FRA requirements, some wore out. I suppose some of that was sold to private buyers, but much was scrapped?
This poster maintains that not only does Amtrak not have any spare equipment but they need more operating equipment than present inventory. Amtrak per the latest operating report says its availability is near 90%. IMHO that is a way too much. Any airline does not even come close to that figure and suspect that the rest of the world's RRs do not have that rate of availability. Also much of the availability is at the NEC which has the comfort of having almost all equipment laying over at night getting PM that the long distance route trains do not have. All any of us have to do is look at the mileage on the LD cars versus the NEC, Midwest, and west coast equipment..
If spare equipment was available then it could be used profitability during the high seasons ------ Easter, summertime, Thanksgiving - New Years. Other times rotate non needed equipment thru heavy PM to give better and more reliable service. As well very clean equipment.
Keep in mind that having that 90% availability is in part due to the fact that these cars can be "unloaded" at a pretty darn fast rate, and can do quite a bit of miles before most servicing. Also keep in mind that people as a nature now are impatient. The non tourist train traveler wants ONTIME. Having a 90% plus availability is critical for almost any delay, backup, etc. This "availability" now includes buses in many areas where weather has been a problem, and "freight goes first" Managing Passenger train travel sucks, and as mentioned above, the private RR's wanted OUT asap...I see a big issue with adding a second rail in some areas where Amtrak only needs "light rail" and the RR's will ONLY do the work ( being subsidized) where a Heavy duty freight rail is installed. Amtrak could "lease" out older extras to Heritage rails etc, for passenger service, while keeping them available in an emergency...( they could donate the lease and write it off as an expense to a non profit )
aegrotatio These are from Chicago (which VRE bought for one dollar) ... I can't find any further information. Anyone care to comment?
These are from Chicago (which VRE bought for one dollar) ... I can't find any further information. Anyone care to comment?
Even with the corruption, and the salt damage to the infrastructure, and the chronic congestion there, I'd have paid more for Chicago. Wish I'd known.
Unlike the private passenger lines prior to 1971, Amtrak did not keep old, fully depreciated equipment in storage for peak demand periods. There were many heritage cars than were updated that could hve been retained. And what about the former Metroliners? Some were stripped of motors, etc. and used, but many more could have been retained and used on the NEC, locomotive-hauled, as the PRR used P70s at holiday rushes. Poor planning.
Poor planning. Airline executives heading Amtrak. Congress demanding routes. The executive branch wanting passenger trains to be abolished. Was it Amtrak's poor planning or the desire of government and freight rail to do away with the service entirely?
The Metroliner shells seem to be perfect candidates for rebuilding into 'Amfleet III' cars, as the cab cars were. The stainless steel shells have many more years on them. Money is probably the biggest problem. I think most are still sitting at one of the large shops.
henry6 Poor planning. Airline executives heading Amtrak. Congress demanding routes. The executive branch wanting passenger trains to be abolished. Was it Amtrak's poor planning or the desire of government and freight rail to do away with the service entirely?
Please!! In the 43 year history of Amtrak, "doing away with service entirely" was on the agenda of POTUS at most 20 of those years, if that many. And how do you explain the Congressional authorization and Amtrak purchase of Superliners I and II fleets, the Horizon fleet and the Acela fleet? They surely were given permission to buy an awful lot of cars (~2000) for a terminally ill organization. Amtrak has no one to blame but itself on this issue, at least. Facing the truth is the first step in recovery and growth.
NorthWest The Metroliner shells seem to be perfect candidates for rebuilding into 'Amfleet III' cars, as the cab cars were. The stainless steel shells have many more years on them. Money is probably the biggest problem. I think most are still sitting at one of the large shops.
schlimm henry6 Poor planning. Airline executives heading Amtrak. Congress demanding routes. The executive branch wanting passenger trains to be abolished. Was it Amtrak's poor planning or the desire of government and freight rail to do away with the service entirely? Please!! In the 43 year history of Amtrak, "doing away with service entirely" was on the agenda of POTUS at most 20 of those years, if that many. And how do you explain the Congressional authorization and Amtrak purchase of Superliners I and II fleets, the Horizon fleet and the Acela fleet? They surely were given permission to buy an awful lot of cars (~2000) for a terminally ill organization. Amtrak has no one to blame but itself on this issue, at least. Facing the truth is the first step in recovery and growth.
Easy. What Amtrak has gotten has been bare bones because of overall opposition. If all of Congress and the full force of the Executive branch are or were behind Amtrak, Amtrak wouldn' t be behind.
henry6Easy. What Amtrak has gotten has been bare bones because of overall opposition. If all of Congress and the full force of the Executive branch are or were behind Amtrak, Amtrak wouldn' t be behind.
You are just making excuses. My point was if Amtrak had been better run with some forethought (not really "vision") about needs, then they would have retained more existing equipment to use as spares, which is, after all, the title of this thread.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.