It appears the phone conversation was with onboard personnel. Engineer appears to have passed 3 signals calling for speed reductions - without reducing speed.
http://news.yahoo.com/spain-driver-received-3-signals-141125141.html
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
narig01This has been in the news : http://bigstory.ap.org/article/spanish-police-open-crash-train-black-boxes?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=cheatsheet_afternoon&cid=newsletter%3Bemail%3Bcheatsheet_afternoon&utm_term=Cheat%20SheetIf someone could link the above. Seems like the driver was talking on a cell phone.Rgds IGN
Just to add another fact, the line in cause has ERTMS but it's not in use. And in the place where the accident happened is where the ASFA TBS (a modernised version of ASFA that contrls speed and braking curves) ends. From there and in a short section about 5 miles long the system used is the so called 'classical' ASFA (dating back to 1978), wich is a plain cab signal system controling only signal aspects
BaltACD The speed of the gauge change is amazing - my bigger question is how are the wheels secured on the axle to mantain whatever gauge has been set? Additionally, what is the wear rate on the wheel/axle combination as compared to a standard wheel axle set?
The speed of the gauge change is amazing - my bigger question is how are the wheels secured on the axle to mantain whatever gauge has been set? Additionally, what is the wear rate on the wheel/axle combination as compared to a standard wheel axle set?
Normally the wheels, during the process, in case of Talgos (independent) are loose. In other cases (CAF), the axles are telescopic, meaning that the wheels are also loose when changing. In terms of wear, I do not have any info about it, but I suppose its not much different from 'regular' wheelsets
Mario_v
The gauge change video is fantastic. Without it I doubt that I would have grasped so quickly how it works.
All the best,
Sam1
Some miscelaneous facts I caught up in the news relatad with the accident
1) Just before the curve the HSL has a big straight section 50 miles long, in wich the maximu speed permitted is 'limited' to 137 Mph (on paper it says 180, but without ERTMS, a 'digital' version of ÃASFA is in use, with wayside signals, hence the limit) ;
2) The Autonomous govenment of Galicia and also the Engineers syndicate had complained to RENFE/ADIF about the fact of the speed in the area being too high, mentioning that the reduction in speed should be pulled back 6 miles and not only 2,5. The syindicate also presented a formal complaint in justice against Renfe, due to pressures to accomplish things as they are, without considering the perception of who works on the terrain ;
3) The engineer in cause was known by his colleagues as a 'snail' because it would start accomplishing speed restrictions earlier than everybody, meaning that 'his' trains would always get late ;
4) The train was sibmitted to a complete check up' just days before ;
5) The train that passed before (2 hours) reported trouble in the signal system in the same place (went into emergency braking) ;
6) 'Black boxes' to be opened today ;
7) Alledgedly the engineer pledged guilty due to 'distraction' (his words)
Sam1 Mario_v, This is a very informative post. Hopefully you can answer a few of questions. Are you an engineer? And do you live in Spain? How is the train able to switch from one gauge to another? Can it do so whilst it is moving? If the engineer is found guilty of negligent homicide, what are the likely consequences under Spanish law? Thanks
Mario_v,
This is a very informative post. Hopefully you can answer a few of questions.
Are you an engineer? And do you live in Spain?
How is the train able to switch from one gauge to another? Can it do so whilst it is moving?
If the engineer is found guilty of negligent homicide, what are the likely consequences under Spanish law?
Thanks
Hello Sam1
Question 1 - I'm not an engineer, but some years ago I worked as a railroader in my country's railway, and due to specifics of the job (I worked in the motive power & scheduling department), I was 'forced' to do a lot of cab rides and 'terrain' inspection. As matter of effect, I'm living 'next' to Spain, I'm Portuguese, but during my railway years and in leisure time I'd travel a lot in the spanish rail system, and Galicia, where the accident happened is quite close, so I've experienced all the 'changes & upgrades' (which are still far from complete).
Question 2 - Talgo trains & locomotives (belonging to Bombardier's TRAXX family)and other trains (railcars and 'Bitrac' locomotives built by CAF), are capable of changing gauge in a completely automatic process, and can do it 'on the fly' although at very reduced speed (no more that 12 Mph). There's a video that I'm going to add showing how that is done.
Question 3 - Although the engined pledged himseflf guilty, something that hasn't yet been totally proofed, it will get a hevy penalty, 25 to 25 years.
The gauge change video : watch?v=y8N7Ikw87tM
blue streak 1 CNN has a 26 still pictuures and some video http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/27/world/europe/spain-train-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 mario; Several questions. 1. Do yo kow if the disel has a significanly higher cerner of gravity that may have precipated it going off the track ? Maybe a calculated tipping speed for standard guage and wide guage ? 2. Does the diesel provide power to the lead loc's inverters ? 3. Any idea of the KW ( HP ) of the diesel ? 4. At one time there was a report that a bystander walking her dog was killed any truth ?
CNN has a 26 still pictuures and some video
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/27/world/europe/spain-train-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
mario; Several questions.
1. Do yo kow if the disel has a significanly higher cerner of gravity that may have precipated it going off the track ? Maybe a calculated tipping speed for standard guage and wide guage ?
2. Does the diesel provide power to the lead loc's inverters ?
3. Any idea of the KW ( HP ) of the diesel ?
4. At one time there was a report that a bystander walking her dog was killed any truth ?
As far as the train's carachteristics are concerned, there's an excelent reference, but its in Spanish. Here's the link : http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Renfe_Serie_730
As it is explained there, these trains are a batch of 15 that have been adapted to have a diesel engine in a 'coach' behind the electric TRAXX power car. When the diesel is activated, the electric locos became slugs (the truck in this second car is just for weight purposes), and also all secondary services are fed by it, meaning that power available for traction purposes is reduced, as well as its maximum operational speed (180 Kmhr / 112 Mph). Judging by the type of engine and general configuration, it must not be much different from the new Cascades power cars. As for the higher centre of gravity, indeed these diesel 'modules' (as I prefer to call it ), its true, but after seeing the derailment movie for a lot of times, I would say that the power combo, in a first moment seems to hold itself well, until the first to (very) leighweight passenger modules cames out of the curve obeys the laws of physics, and by means of a big torsion move (the diesel module has an axle that serves as support for the first passenger module) gets the diesel side of the power car out of track, and by consequence the TRAXX unit.
As for a pdestrin 'kill' on the trackbed/track space, that would be almost impossible, since the line is fenced from both sides (mandatory in HSLs over here) and it would be something that woyld be imeediately detected (by thesurveillance camera that got all the accident). Only if the car that jumped more than 30 ft got anyone when it was 'flying' and landed in a contiguous square, but also that has been denied by the mayor of the little borough next to track
Overmod oltmannd Whether you would get a warning and penalty brake for a reduced speed curve would depend on whether the cab signal system was being used for "civil" speed restrictions as well as block signals. in the US, cab signals are typically NOT used for curves or other civil speed restrictions, just block occupancy and interlocking routes. You would get a "clear" in the cab as long a the blocks ahead were unoccupied, regardless of the approaching 9 degree curve. Note the post in General Discussions that mentions the type and character of safety systems involved, notably ASFA on the section where the accident occurred. Someone knowledgeable about the details might comment on why the high-speed train control system did not command a reduction to the lower track speed prior to entering the older section. I understand that ASFA is like the American ATS in that it only automates braking on signal indication, not overspeed (according to Reuters, it alerts the engineman but does not command braking). Can someone provide a full technical description of the operation of the Spanish systems?
oltmannd Whether you would get a warning and penalty brake for a reduced speed curve would depend on whether the cab signal system was being used for "civil" speed restrictions as well as block signals. in the US, cab signals are typically NOT used for curves or other civil speed restrictions, just block occupancy and interlocking routes. You would get a "clear" in the cab as long a the blocks ahead were unoccupied, regardless of the approaching 9 degree curve.
Whether you would get a warning and penalty brake for a reduced speed curve would depend on whether the cab signal system was being used for "civil" speed restrictions as well as block signals.
in the US, cab signals are typically NOT used for curves or other civil speed restrictions, just block occupancy and interlocking routes. You would get a "clear" in the cab as long a the blocks ahead were unoccupied, regardless of the approaching 9 degree curve.
Note the post in General Discussions that mentions the type and character of safety systems involved, notably ASFA on the section where the accident occurred.
Someone knowledgeable about the details might comment on why the high-speed train control system did not command a reduction to the lower track speed prior to entering the older section. I understand that ASFA is like the American ATS in that it only automates braking on signal indication, not overspeed (according to Reuters, it alerts the engineman but does not command braking). Can someone provide a full technical description of the operation of the Spanish systems?
Here's some info regarding the Spanish 'ASFA' system. As it has been said, it was (and in some manner it still is) a 'classic' cab signal system. But in its later versions it evolved into a more complete system, giving not only the usual signal 'aspect' information, but also controlling braking curves (in order to provide a 'smooth' braking), but also line speed, and even speed restrictions.
Wikipedia info : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuncio_de_Se%C3%B1ales_y_Frenado_Autom%C3%A1tico
Ferropedia (spanish site, spanish only) : http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/ASFA
From the original maker, Invensys/Dimetronic (Spanish only) : http://www.dimetronic.es/wps/wcm/connect/d8acc680400dc20d98c7990adc41b882/ASFA+TBS+castellano.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=d8acc680400dc20d98c7990adc41b882
blue streak 1 http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=376039&nseq=13 This view is very informative. Somehow I was under the impression that this train had only a diesel at one end. If it had a diesel at the other end that may have been heavy enough to cause the train set to acordian ? Is the diesel much heavier than the talgo cars ? BTW --- personally I do not like the single axel Talgos. Something for investigators to look at. Another item none of us have mentioned is distracted driving. The investigators will certainly look at that possibility especially a Chatsworth type distraction ?
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=376039&nseq=13
This view is very informative. Somehow I was under the impression that this train had only a diesel at one end. If it had a diesel at the other end that may have been heavy enough to cause the train set to acordian ? Is the diesel much heavier than the talgo cars ? BTW --- personally I do not like the single axel Talgos. Something for investigators to look at.
Another item none of us have mentioned is distracted driving. The investigators will certainly look at that possibility especially a Chatsworth type distraction ?
Saw a video clip of the wrecking operations - one of the cars was lifted onto a normal appearing flat bed trailer to be moved away from the scene. The crane did not appear to be 'heavy duty' in lifting the car and the trailer appeared to be your everyday flat bed - nothing heavy duty about it either.
There will be many engineering lessons to be learned in any number of areas from this incident.
Here is a picture that illustrates a train in the same class: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=376039&nseq=13
Interestingly, the front power nodule has two 4-wheeled trucks, while the diesel unit has just one, and a one axle truck supporting the back end and the front of the first car. Might this have something to do with pulling the rest of the train off the tracks? It seems like having a coupling and two 4-wheeled trucks would be easier on maintenance, (detach the whole unit for service) and safer in an accident.
NW
as a retired train driver who worked high speed trains can i add a few comments.NO the driver would not be asleep the safety features on high speed trains dont allow it.which brings me to the question why had the powers that be not installed ERTMS to operate on that section of track a section where you are reducing speed from 140mph to 50mph.know where else in europe would that happen.were management trying to save money??.yes the driver cocked up big style( but there isnt a train driver in the world who hasnt had a bum clenching moment at sometime in his career ) so before everyone hangs him out to dry management need to be answering some questions.but like management all over the world they will be slinking back under the stones avoiding the glare of publicity and letting the driver take all the flack.
henry6 Since the locomotive did not derail first its center of gravity, etc. had nothing to do with it...it was pulled off the track by the following cars derailing.
Since the locomotive did not derail first its center of gravity, etc. had nothing to do with it...it was pulled off the track by the following cars derailing.
Henry, you weren't listening. In this design, the 'diesel' is in a separate module, behind the 'locomotive'. And this module, pretty clearly (in the video), was the first part to derail...
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First i am not an expert or familiar with the Spanish system. However, one story said the system was not installed in the section leading up to that curve.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Now CNN and USATODAY are reporting that the engineer "bragged" he was going the speed limit. Since when is the speed limit against rules/law? Saying you are going the speed limit is not bragging, but why was he on facebook going 125 mph?
But the news is missing the point. Once again, these morons are on their phone when they should be driving the train. Do they really have a death wish?
Mario_vQuestion one : With a cab signal system in place, of advanced form, normally the enginner gets not one but several warnings (sounds in the cab, and also visaul in a display screen) to reduce speed. Having in mind the fact that the restriction is very severe, this will normaly happen in quite a long distance from the 'target' point. Also, as the restriction is severe and the line becames 'conventional' there are also wayside boards indicating the start of a speed restriction at distance, in a system similar to the one used in the UK (and by BNSF). It is strange to me that some form of braking action, wether soft or hard, was not executed. Normally the cab signal system of 'BSL' type should in this case 'engage' an emergency braking, but that didn't happen. Also, with wayside signals, the enginner should also start braking, and that also didn't happen, at least partially (according with spanish press, after exiting a tunnel nearby, the train was moving at a speed of 220 Km/h, 137 Mph, so some form of braking happend, wether forcifully or not i don't know. Also the engineer recognised that the train speed, wich was 5 minutes behind schedule, at the timne of the derailment was 190 km/h. As I write the 'blackboxes' are still being analysed)
The primary exception (outside of the world of urban mass transit) would be Amtrak's ACSES system (the "C" stands for civil). The were originally going to use cab signal for track occupancy and route, and track transponders for civil, but I don't know what they finally settled on. GPS + dead reckoning would be a good choice for civil these days.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
blue streak 1 any chance driver asleep ?
any chance driver asleep ?
I've read multiple reports that there were 2 crew members in the Cab.
Of course there have been wrecks when everyone in the cab was asleep...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
blue streak 1 BBC word news reported at about 0930 GMT on PBS that 77 person died. They also reported that the train may have been going 190+ KPM and speed limit waas 80 KPH. ( ~ 118 mph vs 50 MPH ). Wonder if that true ? Questions for Mario. What guage is this line & what type train control ? ( ETRMS ? )
BBC word news reported at about 0930 GMT on PBS that 77 person died. They also reported that the train may have been going 190+ KPM and speed limit waas 80 KPH. ( ~ 118 mph vs 50 MPH ). Wonder if that true ?
Questions for Mario. What guage is this line & what type train control ? ( ETRMS ? )
Just now had the opportunity to get into this tread, and as far as I can see there seem to be a lot of doubts about it. I'll start with some preliminaries.
This line, altough technically a high speed line, was built in 'iberian' gauge (1668 millimeters, versus the more usual 1435 mm of standrd gauge), but to be converted to standard gauge on a later date, as soon as the entire Madrid to Galicia HSL is ready ( presently the intermediate and most difficult section between Medina del Campo, near Valladolid and Ourense, where this section starts, is under construction). This particular section between the Junctions called 'Bif. O coto da Torre' (just North of Ourense) and 'Bif A grandeira' (South of Santiago de Compostela), despite the gauge, has sections of track in wich the top speed is 300 Kmhr, but due to the necessity of connecting it with the existing network, in the two aforementioned junctions there are speed restrictions, respectively 110 and 80 km/h.
In the section of track where the acident happened, the line is electrified at 25 Kv/50 Hz AC. However, in the Ourense side, there is a short section electrified at 3 Kv DC, wich is the standard main line electrification in Spain, a system that has American influences (first electrification done at this system used engines built by Alco and was most certainly inspired by GN/MIlw practice). The 'tension cange' is located at kilometre 3,4 (counting from Ourense) of the new line.
In terms of signalling system, the new line is equipped with a form of automatic block (not ERTMS), wich is technically called BSL, wich means 'Bloqueo por señalizacion lateral', i.e: a form of block that still uses wayside signals, wich is quite odd for a HSL (other lines in Spain use wether ERTMS or a 'movable block' system, far more advanced than this one), but with signal aspects being transmitted inboard by means of antennae installed in the axle of track (it's some sort of high tech Cab signalling having some PTC functions - possible it was used in prefence of others as a cost saving measure). In the place where the accident happened, there's a transition between signalling systems, since its the end of a high speed section, between the aforementioned BSL and a more classic form of absloute block system wich is called BAB, an acronym of 'Bloqueo Automatico Banalizado', in wich the 2 main tracks are signalled in both directions and can effectively be operated as two single tracks. This section of more convetional track has also a cab signal system, wich is more limited than the one used in the HS section, being more 'classic'.
The train wich derailed is a series 730 'Hybrid' (dual gauge, dual voltage and diesel) Talgo, it's basically a series 130 (dual gauge/dual voltage) Talgo 'EMU' with two power cars at each end (belonging to Bombardier's Traxx family), but also with two extra diesel sections (having an MTU diesel, just like the new Cascades power cars) added in order to allow service to Galicia since some sections of track are still not electrified (more data, spanish only http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_730_de_Renfe ). It's top speed is 250 Km/h under 25 Kv AC, 200 Km/h under 3 Kv DC and 180 Km/h under diesel power.
Now, talking about the accident and some questions in my mind: after presenting the general characteristics of both track and train involved, Iet's focus our attention into the accident proper. The train had left Madrid at 15:00 Hrs, and had as its final destination Ferrol, some 57 kilometres North of La Coruña, a trip wich includes three reverse moves at MEdina del Campo, La Coruña and Betanzos Infesta, some 20 Kms west of La Coruña. In the place where the accident happend there is a very pronunced redution is speed, from 300 km/h (in the case 250, the maximum allowed speed for this train under 25 Kv AC) to 80, due to fact of 'insertion' of the new high speed alignment in place of the older one (the line seen at right is the old main from Zamora to La Coruña, opened in 1958, but built to standards more proper of lines planned in the 30's, hence the low speed), wich was basically widened in order to comprise 3 main tracks. It is also a transition area between cab signal systems as I've explained before.
Question one : With a cab signal system in place, of advanced form, normally the enginner gets not one but several warnings (sounds in the cab, and also visaul in a display screen) to reduce speed. Having in mind the fact that the restriction is very severe, this will normaly happen in quite a long distance from the 'target' point. Also, as the restriction is severe and the line becames 'conventional' there are also wayside boards indicating the start of a speed restriction at distance, in a system similar to the one used in the UK (and by BNSF). It is strange to me that some form of braking action, wether soft or hard, was not executed. Normally the cab signal system of 'BSL' type should in this case 'engage' an emergency braking, but that didn't happen. Also, with wayside signals, the enginner should also start braking, and that also didn't happen, at least partially (according with spanish press, after exiting a tunnel nearby, the train was moving at a speed of 220 Km/h, 137 Mph, so some form of braking happend, wether forcifully or not i don't know. Also the engineer recognised that the train speed, wich was 5 minutes behind schedule, at the timne of the derailment was 190 km/h. As I write the 'blackboxes' are still being analysed)
The curve in cause, is limited to 80 Km/h for this kind of trains (other trains - conventional - have to obey to an even more restrictive speed of 65 km/h), and just after the curve the speed gets even lower (75 Km/h). In the station of Santiago de Cosmpostela, some 2 or 3 kilometres north, there's a general speed restriction of 60 km/h. The curve in cause is considered dangerous, and if it has some sort of superelevation (mandatory in such cases), it seems to be somehow reduced if one has into account its reduced radius (in the vicinity of 300 metres). Also, if one doesn't takes into account the fact of 'confort limits' (a limit that when surpassed makes the trip quite 'rough' true the curve), an extreme speed of 96 km/h (60 Mph) or 20% more would maybe be the upper limit for that curve (about the rough riding in some spanish HSLs, it's common in many cases, especially if Talgos are used).
As one can see in the movie that's been circulating in the web, the first car that 'obeys the unavoidable laws of physics' is the one just after the firt power car, and this one is the diesel module. Judging by the movie, the speed is clearly excessive, but the Traxx power car sems to hold it up more or less well, but after it, the diesel module, wich has just one truck cames out of track (maybe some fuel splashing inside accentuated that), it just jumps out of track. The 'flash that is seen, is provocated by the 'overjumping' of the 'Talgo boxes' that came out of track and jump over or hit the bridge abutment. Fortunatelly the 'flashover' didnt originate any fire related with diesel fuel.
As far as I'm concerned, there must be not one, but more causes for this accident. If the train and track were in perfect order, according with Renfe and Adif (the entity that owns all lines in Spain), there must certainly exist some form of explanation, not just some declared overspeed. Something that shouldn't have failed did fail.
blue streak 1 Are any of the various Talgo models in the PNW operated with a more robust coupler system ??
Not sure, but they are don't meet FRA standards (or at least haven't been tested), so the NPCUs are needed. The new Talgos don't need them, but I don't know if they meet standards or are operating under the same waiver. IIRC greater rigidity in a crash was an advantage of Talgos, but I could be wrong...
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