report on NBC at 6:03 PM ( 2203 GMT ) of serious train accident in Spain 30+ reported fatalities however it is very preliminary ?
EDIT A BBC 1758 european time report is below
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23442018
Earlier report with 10 dead
http://news.yahoo.com/least-ten-killed-train-derails-spain-report-195902475.html;_ylt=Antxjn8vtYpa8d_8xhcqzhjR_3YA;_ylu=X3oDMTJjNmlxYzI0BG1pdANOZXdzIEFydGljbGUgVG9kYXkgTW9kdWxlIFJpZ2h0IFJhaWwEcGtnA2lkLTMzOTk2MDIEcG9zAzQEc2VjA2hjbQR2ZXIDMTA-;_ylg=X3oDMTBhYWM1a2sxBGxhbmcDZW4tVVM-;_ylv=3
Now reports of 40+ The below link shows what appears to be a Talgo and amazingly one of its cars appears to have jumped up some 30 ft above tracks.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324564704578626253124833408.html#slide%252F1%3D%26articleTabs%3Dslideshow
Update from BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23444848
EDIT another link
http://news.sky.com/story/1120030/spain-train-crash-dozens-killed-and-injured
An update from BBC at 1801 ET
One has to wonder if the cars had remained connected what would the results have been ?? Are any of the various Talgo models in the PNW operated with a more robust coupler system ?? No shelf couplers ?
BBC word news reported at about 0930 GMT on PBS that 77 person died. They also reported that the train may have been going 190+ KPM and speed limit waas 80 KPH. ( ~ 118 mph vs 50 MPH ). Wonder if that true ?
Questions for Mario. What guage is this line & what type train control ? ( ETRMS ? )
ITlooks like a spanish talgo on the spanish wide guage of 5 foot 3 ins train control unkown ,waiting on euro contact for more details
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0376x74/live
On this link scroll down to a picture of a crane removing a car. Thaere is a BBC radio channel 4 extensive report. Highlights ----------
1. Driver admitted going 190+ KPM
2. This is not part of ETRMS
3. This curve had concers spoken about 2 years ago because of its restrictions from 190 to 80 KPM,
4. Previos riders had noted rough ride on curve.
5. Curve not eased due to financial constraints & having to purchase much land in a heavily populated area.
6. Line used old ROW in this area but track rebuilt ( to standard guage ?? )
7. Fatalities may now be 79 ??
.
4. Cu
Another video of salvage operations.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23447097
Looking at how the cars accordianed makes one wonder if that contributed to deaths. The French derailment last week the fatalities were on the platform (s) and that train mostly stayed in a straight line. These are questions for the Talgos in the Pacific north west ?
Many residents reported hearing an explosion. I have no idea how loud a 25 Kv line shorting out would sound ?? Is this even 25 Kv ?? .
Here is a You tube video of the actual acccident. a 9 second video with only about 2 seconds of the accident. If one of our computer geeks can slow it down for us it would help. Appears that car behind power car tilted and pulled power car off rails. Then a quick look at rear cars acting like anaccordian.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ltax00Lkb4&feature=player_embedded
Blue Streak
You get my hands down vote as the person in these forums who seems to have a wider grasp of passenger train news around the world than anyone.
I have a picture of you sitting in a room somewhere, surrounded by TV monitors, focused on all the railroad news feeds. Much like the commodity traders in our company! They have a minimum of three monitors going at any one time. They are focused on markets in Europe, Asia, and the Americas.
Keep it coming.
SAM1 ; don't expect it to cocntinue indefinitely. Once I have full recovery then back to old grindstone..
Looking at the video it appears that what some think was an explosion was probably an electrical short explosion. You can barely see the second car take out a CAT pole and then the flash.
blue streak 12. This is not part of ETRMS
Horrible wreck. If you think PTC is expensive to do, take a look at what ETRMS requires sometime.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
blue streak 1 One has to wonder if the cars had remained connected what would the results have been ?? Are any of the various Talgo models in the PNW operated with a more robust coupler system ?? No shelf couplers ?
Lots to wonder about, for sure. I haven't seen wreck pictures that bad since the Colonial. As bad as it is, it does seem that a lot of the car bodies did seem to fair pretty well. 100+ mph train has a lot of energy that has to go somewhere in a wreck. I'm not sure there are there are always good solutions for managing that much energy in such a short time.
oltmannd Lots to wonder about, for sure. I haven't seen wreck pictures that bad since the Colonial. As bad as it is, it does seem that a lot of the car bodies did seem to fair pretty well. 100+ mph train has a lot of energy that has to go somewhere in a wreck. I'm not sure there are there are always good solutions for managing that much energy in such a short time.
Reports are now that the train was going at least 119 mph in a 49 mph zone on a sharp curve. Also it had been under the Spanish version of ATC/PTC, but that section ended at point earlier. Driver error.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
any chance driver asleep ?
Nothing about that so far.
blue streak 1 Are any of the various Talgo models in the PNW operated with a more robust coupler system ??
Not sure, but they are don't meet FRA standards (or at least haven't been tested), so the NPCUs are needed. The new Talgos don't need them, but I don't know if they meet standards or are operating under the same waiver. IIRC greater rigidity in a crash was an advantage of Talgos, but I could be wrong...
blue streak 1 BBC word news reported at about 0930 GMT on PBS that 77 person died. They also reported that the train may have been going 190+ KPM and speed limit waas 80 KPH. ( ~ 118 mph vs 50 MPH ). Wonder if that true ? Questions for Mario. What guage is this line & what type train control ? ( ETRMS ? )
Just now had the opportunity to get into this tread, and as far as I can see there seem to be a lot of doubts about it. I'll start with some preliminaries.
This line, altough technically a high speed line, was built in 'iberian' gauge (1668 millimeters, versus the more usual 1435 mm of standrd gauge), but to be converted to standard gauge on a later date, as soon as the entire Madrid to Galicia HSL is ready ( presently the intermediate and most difficult section between Medina del Campo, near Valladolid and Ourense, where this section starts, is under construction). This particular section between the Junctions called 'Bif. O coto da Torre' (just North of Ourense) and 'Bif A grandeira' (South of Santiago de Compostela), despite the gauge, has sections of track in wich the top speed is 300 Kmhr, but due to the necessity of connecting it with the existing network, in the two aforementioned junctions there are speed restrictions, respectively 110 and 80 km/h.
In the section of track where the acident happened, the line is electrified at 25 Kv/50 Hz AC. However, in the Ourense side, there is a short section electrified at 3 Kv DC, wich is the standard main line electrification in Spain, a system that has American influences (first electrification done at this system used engines built by Alco and was most certainly inspired by GN/MIlw practice). The 'tension cange' is located at kilometre 3,4 (counting from Ourense) of the new line.
In terms of signalling system, the new line is equipped with a form of automatic block (not ERTMS), wich is technically called BSL, wich means 'Bloqueo por señalizacion lateral', i.e: a form of block that still uses wayside signals, wich is quite odd for a HSL (other lines in Spain use wether ERTMS or a 'movable block' system, far more advanced than this one), but with signal aspects being transmitted inboard by means of antennae installed in the axle of track (it's some sort of high tech Cab signalling having some PTC functions - possible it was used in prefence of others as a cost saving measure). In the place where the accident happened, there's a transition between signalling systems, since its the end of a high speed section, between the aforementioned BSL and a more classic form of absloute block system wich is called BAB, an acronym of 'Bloqueo Automatico Banalizado', in wich the 2 main tracks are signalled in both directions and can effectively be operated as two single tracks. This section of more convetional track has also a cab signal system, wich is more limited than the one used in the HS section, being more 'classic'.
The train wich derailed is a series 730 'Hybrid' (dual gauge, dual voltage and diesel) Talgo, it's basically a series 130 (dual gauge/dual voltage) Talgo 'EMU' with two power cars at each end (belonging to Bombardier's Traxx family), but also with two extra diesel sections (having an MTU diesel, just like the new Cascades power cars) added in order to allow service to Galicia since some sections of track are still not electrified (more data, spanish only http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_730_de_Renfe ). It's top speed is 250 Km/h under 25 Kv AC, 200 Km/h under 3 Kv DC and 180 Km/h under diesel power.
Now, talking about the accident and some questions in my mind: after presenting the general characteristics of both track and train involved, Iet's focus our attention into the accident proper. The train had left Madrid at 15:00 Hrs, and had as its final destination Ferrol, some 57 kilometres North of La Coruña, a trip wich includes three reverse moves at MEdina del Campo, La Coruña and Betanzos Infesta, some 20 Kms west of La Coruña. In the place where the accident happend there is a very pronunced redution is speed, from 300 km/h (in the case 250, the maximum allowed speed for this train under 25 Kv AC) to 80, due to fact of 'insertion' of the new high speed alignment in place of the older one (the line seen at right is the old main from Zamora to La Coruña, opened in 1958, but built to standards more proper of lines planned in the 30's, hence the low speed), wich was basically widened in order to comprise 3 main tracks. It is also a transition area between cab signal systems as I've explained before.
Question one : With a cab signal system in place, of advanced form, normally the enginner gets not one but several warnings (sounds in the cab, and also visaul in a display screen) to reduce speed. Having in mind the fact that the restriction is very severe, this will normaly happen in quite a long distance from the 'target' point. Also, as the restriction is severe and the line becames 'conventional' there are also wayside boards indicating the start of a speed restriction at distance, in a system similar to the one used in the UK (and by BNSF). It is strange to me that some form of braking action, wether soft or hard, was not executed. Normally the cab signal system of 'BSL' type should in this case 'engage' an emergency braking, but that didn't happen. Also, with wayside signals, the enginner should also start braking, and that also didn't happen, at least partially (according with spanish press, after exiting a tunnel nearby, the train was moving at a speed of 220 Km/h, 137 Mph, so some form of braking happend, wether forcifully or not i don't know. Also the engineer recognised that the train speed, wich was 5 minutes behind schedule, at the timne of the derailment was 190 km/h. As I write the 'blackboxes' are still being analysed)
The curve in cause, is limited to 80 Km/h for this kind of trains (other trains - conventional - have to obey to an even more restrictive speed of 65 km/h), and just after the curve the speed gets even lower (75 Km/h). In the station of Santiago de Cosmpostela, some 2 or 3 kilometres north, there's a general speed restriction of 60 km/h. The curve in cause is considered dangerous, and if it has some sort of superelevation (mandatory in such cases), it seems to be somehow reduced if one has into account its reduced radius (in the vicinity of 300 metres). Also, if one doesn't takes into account the fact of 'confort limits' (a limit that when surpassed makes the trip quite 'rough' true the curve), an extreme speed of 96 km/h (60 Mph) or 20% more would maybe be the upper limit for that curve (about the rough riding in some spanish HSLs, it's common in many cases, especially if Talgos are used).
As one can see in the movie that's been circulating in the web, the first car that 'obeys the unavoidable laws of physics' is the one just after the firt power car, and this one is the diesel module. Judging by the movie, the speed is clearly excessive, but the Traxx power car sems to hold it up more or less well, but after it, the diesel module, wich has just one truck cames out of track (maybe some fuel splashing inside accentuated that), it just jumps out of track. The 'flash that is seen, is provocated by the 'overjumping' of the 'Talgo boxes' that came out of track and jump over or hit the bridge abutment. Fortunatelly the 'flashover' didnt originate any fire related with diesel fuel.
As far as I'm concerned, there must be not one, but more causes for this accident. If the train and track were in perfect order, according with Renfe and Adif (the entity that owns all lines in Spain), there must certainly exist some form of explanation, not just some declared overspeed. Something that shouldn't have failed did fail.
blue streak 1 any chance driver asleep ?
I've read multiple reports that there were 2 crew members in the Cab.
Of course there have been wrecks when everyone in the cab was asleep...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Mario_vQuestion one : With a cab signal system in place, of advanced form, normally the enginner gets not one but several warnings (sounds in the cab, and also visaul in a display screen) to reduce speed. Having in mind the fact that the restriction is very severe, this will normaly happen in quite a long distance from the 'target' point. Also, as the restriction is severe and the line becames 'conventional' there are also wayside boards indicating the start of a speed restriction at distance, in a system similar to the one used in the UK (and by BNSF). It is strange to me that some form of braking action, wether soft or hard, was not executed. Normally the cab signal system of 'BSL' type should in this case 'engage' an emergency braking, but that didn't happen. Also, with wayside signals, the enginner should also start braking, and that also didn't happen, at least partially (according with spanish press, after exiting a tunnel nearby, the train was moving at a speed of 220 Km/h, 137 Mph, so some form of braking happend, wether forcifully or not i don't know. Also the engineer recognised that the train speed, wich was 5 minutes behind schedule, at the timne of the derailment was 190 km/h. As I write the 'blackboxes' are still being analysed)
Whether you would get a warning and penalty brake for a reduced speed curve would depend on whether the cab signal system was being used for "civil" speed restrictions as well as block signals.
in the US, cab signals are typically NOT used for curves or other civil speed restrictions, just block occupancy and interlocking routes. You would get a "clear" in the cab as long a the blocks ahead were unoccupied, regardless of the approaching 9 degree curve.
The primary exception (outside of the world of urban mass transit) would be Amtrak's ACSES system (the "C" stands for civil). The were originally going to use cab signal for track occupancy and route, and track transponders for civil, but I don't know what they finally settled on. GPS + dead reckoning would be a good choice for civil these days.
Now CNN and USATODAY are reporting that the engineer "bragged" he was going the speed limit. Since when is the speed limit against rules/law? Saying you are going the speed limit is not bragging, but why was he on facebook going 125 mph?
But the news is missing the point. Once again, these morons are on their phone when they should be driving the train. Do they really have a death wish?
oltmannd Whether you would get a warning and penalty brake for a reduced speed curve would depend on whether the cab signal system was being used for "civil" speed restrictions as well as block signals. in the US, cab signals are typically NOT used for curves or other civil speed restrictions, just block occupancy and interlocking routes. You would get a "clear" in the cab as long a the blocks ahead were unoccupied, regardless of the approaching 9 degree curve.
Note the post in General Discussions that mentions the type and character of safety systems involved, notably ASFA on the section where the accident occurred.
Someone knowledgeable about the details might comment on why the high-speed train control system did not command a reduction to the lower track speed prior to entering the older section. I understand that ASFA is like the American ATS in that it only automates braking on signal indication, not overspeed (according to Reuters, it alerts the engineman but does not command braking). Can someone provide a full technical description of the operation of the Spanish systems?
First i am not an expert or familiar with the Spanish system. However, one story said the system was not installed in the section leading up to that curve.
CNN has a 26 still pictuures and some video
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/27/world/europe/spain-train-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
mario; Several questions.
1. Do yo kow if the disel has a significanly higher cerner of gravity that may have precipated it going off the track ? Maybe a calculated tipping speed for standard guage and wide guage ?
2. Does the diesel provide power to the lead loc's inverters ?
3. Any idea of the KW ( HP ) of the diesel ?
4. At one time there was a report that a bystander walking her dog was killed any truth ?
Since the locomotive did not derail first its center of gravity, etc. had nothing to do with it...it was pulled off the track by the following cars derailing.
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Mario_v,
This is a very informative post. Hopefully you can answer a few of questions.
Are you an engineer? And do you live in Spain?
How is the train able to switch from one gauge to another? Can it do so whilst it is moving?
If the engineer is found guilty of negligent homicide, what are the likely consequences under Spanish law?
Thanks
henry6 Since the locomotive did not derail first its center of gravity, etc. had nothing to do with it...it was pulled off the track by the following cars derailing.
Henry, you weren't listening. In this design, the 'diesel' is in a separate module, behind the 'locomotive'. And this module, pretty clearly (in the video), was the first part to derail...
as a retired train driver who worked high speed trains can i add a few comments.NO the driver would not be asleep the safety features on high speed trains dont allow it.which brings me to the question why had the powers that be not installed ERTMS to operate on that section of track a section where you are reducing speed from 140mph to 50mph.know where else in europe would that happen.were management trying to save money??.yes the driver cocked up big style( but there isnt a train driver in the world who hasnt had a bum clenching moment at sometime in his career ) so before everyone hangs him out to dry management need to be answering some questions.but like management all over the world they will be slinking back under the stones avoiding the glare of publicity and letting the driver take all the flack.
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