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Amtrak NEC CAT and signal problems.

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, July 8, 2014 9:34 AM
NJT website said Amtrak had power supply problem...but power is now back and service in and out of NYP has resumed with many delays. Amtrak's substructure is always suspect but so are the outside power suppliers. Don't know which to blame as of now.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, November 7, 2014 12:26 PM

More failures of the CAT this morning near Bowie.

 

Today at 6:28 AM
Penn Line Update:  Due to a catenary wire issue at Bowie, all Penn Line service is temporarily suspended. Updates will follow as information becomes available. Metro to honor MARC tickets.
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, January 21, 2015 5:45 PM

Depending on the failure location a CAT wire problem at NYP caused NJT to have to delay several trains around noon.  More info not available.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, February 10, 2015 11:59 AM

Earlier today ( Tuesday ) CAT torn down near BWI airport.  As usual single  tracking was in effect.  CAT now restored.  No link.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, February 11, 2015 2:00 AM

Appears CAT torn down   at Baltimore Penn station.  Only one track availble to platform trains at BAL Penn station.  Anyone know if one or more wire crews are stationed near this continuing occurring locations? MARC link ::

 

Feb 10 at 8:32 PM
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, April 13, 2015 11:41 AM

CAT [problems today Monday Apr 13 slowing MARC.

Here is MARC bulletin.

MARC Service Alert Southbound Penn Line Trains operating with electric locomotive will experience delays of 20 to 25 minutes between West Baltimore and Odenton stations due to a power outage in the catenary; Crews are w

 
 
Today at 5:16 AM
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Posted by schlimm on Monday, April 13, 2015 4:35 PM

Is this still the ~80 year old cat?   Seems to fail almost monthly: cold, heat, snow, ice, wind.  What a way to run a railroad!!   No

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, April 13, 2015 6:23 PM

Schlimm: This CAT is not the first that PRR installed.  BUT -- What has been updated ( not constant tension ) of older PRR style CAT is not known.  It may be that the CAT from PHL and especially Perry  to WASH will only be patch work repairs for far into the future.  That is because  long range plans for this section of track provides for it to become 4 main track with some alignment changes for higher speeds.  That can be found on both Amtrak NEC improvement plans and MARC plans.  MARC desires to increase their number of trains on this route. 

Of course until the funds can be acquired to rebuild the route these problems will continue.  It may be that longer MARC trains can solve some capacity problems but the needed longer platforms will require careful planning to meet the 4 track plans. As well WASH does have platform lengths that cannot be increased until extended sets of tracks and necessary ladder tracks are first built.  ( expensive ).

 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, July 24, 2015 3:09 PM

Although does not appear to be heat related this week's problems that are occurring Newark -  NYP again points out how fragile the present electrical distribution system is.  From CAT to under sized feeders  to low capacity substations to additional frequency converters each seems to be very vunerable. 

These problems now when Amtrak and NJT want to add more load in the near future.  At least NJT dual mode locos can help by running diesel although there may be indications these problems originate in the Hudson river tunnels..

See today's news wire.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, July 24, 2015 8:03 PM

NJ governor blasts Amtrak over this week's delays.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/christie-blasts-amtrak-for-causing-delays-for-nj-transit-commuters-1.1380604

Could it be that the Gov is worried about the possible current political fall out indicating he does not take constitutents needs properly?.  Other GOP canidates certainly will have ammo.  Any political campaign is only as good as the voter's last perceptions of a candidate.

 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Friday, July 24, 2015 9:52 PM

The concensus is that the commuter lines on the NEC don't pay their fair share for rail access, so apparently they are getting what they pay for.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Saturday, July 25, 2015 12:41 PM

According to another site Boardman took media to NYP to observe cables and circuit breakers.  Any one with link ?

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Saturday, July 25, 2015 12:51 PM

schlimm

Is this still the ~80 year old cat?   Seems to fail almost monthly: cold, heat, snow, ice, wind.  What a way to run a railroad!!   No

 
  According to some other news reports Amtrak was limiting the number of trains in the tunnels at one time.  We may suspect that the CAT contact wire is carrying the power to trains. It may be that the feeder cables to the CAT are continuing to deteoriate from the salt water in the tunnels from "Sandy" AS well the amount of power needed to climb up from the river floor to either NYP or NJ may be significant.
Boardman reported to have had media inspect feeder cables and circuit breakers located in NYP Friday.  Reported to have said feeders from 1930s and C/Bs from 1950s.
 
 
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Posted by schlimm on Sunday, July 26, 2015 7:39 AM

Here's a good summary of the bigger picture on the NEC: antique intrastructure, double the traffic and a lack of funding/diversion of profits to LD trains.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/27/nyregion/aging-infrastructure-plagues-nations-busiest-rail-corridor.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Sunday, July 26, 2015 8:08 PM

There appears to be a long chain of events that has led to this resulting bad situation.

1.  Amtrak in the 1980 - 2000 was underfunded so much that almost no NEC improvements could be done even to the 25 Hz system.

2.  Traffic around the 1980 appears to be almost half of what it is today so improvements to the electrical distribution system could be posponed especially when CR decided to discontinue electric freight train service instead of paying high electric rates that could have been used to improve the electrical system.

3.  NJT began its long climb of increasing number of commuters to NYP.

4.  Conversion of Lackawanna electric service and some of NJ east coast to 60 HZ AC allowed for more passengers.

5.  Along with the above the addition of all these passengers caused NJT trains to get much longer increasing power draw. This poster remembers riding on 6 car EMUs before and now all are 12 cars. It would be interesting to find out power draw then and now from NJT.

6.  Somewhere along these years Amtrak did not sufficiently plan for higher power draws and apparently NJT basked in the result of not having to pay more for its larger power draw.

7.  Acela units, ALP-44s, -45s,-46s, & new ACS-64s are all icreasing power draws especially short term as their acceleration is much quicker. + newer EMUs

 8.  Sometime around 2004 - 2006 Amtrak started campaining for more capital funds but did not get any dedicated until 2009 PRIIA.

9.  ARC planning was going on by 2010 but Gov Cristie cancelled NJ participation.  In looking back it was a good decision as the dead end 6 - 8 track layout was inadequate.  We will never know if the governor cancelled it for these reasons as his public announcement cited possible over run costs for NJ.  However his not pushing for the much more acceptable Gateway project at that time and robbing funds from the PA has no excuse. Credit he did not know that a "Sandy" event was possible and he may have acted differently if he had known.

10.  "Sandy" and the salt water in the Hudson ( North ) river tunnels ( the tubes ) started  corrision that cannot be stopped until everything is stripped and fresh water washed and cleaned. 

11.  Amtrak got emergency funds because of Sandy and has applied some to both add and improve power conversion equipment near the tubes.

12.  Amtrak converted Gate - Rochelle from 25 Hz to 60 Hz to lower power draw on the Sunnyside frequency converter station. As well a rebuild of the station has / is been done.

13.  Sometime in the past Amtrak removed the over running 600v third rail in the tubes but since reinstalled it so DM locos could push / pull stalled trains out of the tubes.

14.  Amtrak installed high capacity signaling in the tubes to allow closer spacing between trains thereby adding more power draw in the tunnels.  ( this before Sandy )

 

Now for some of the items that can only be speculated.

21.  Before last week there have been occasional NJT and Amtrak trains stalled in the Hudson tubes for undisclosed reasons.  ( maybe power problems ? )

22.  Last week almost every rush hour seemd to have problems that were not disclosed but of course all blamed on Amtrak by the governor.

23.  Finally Boardman called in the media and showed them tunnel feeders and circuit breakers that were very old and stated that was the problem.

 24.  The electric feeder and wire in the tubes is a witches brew.

           Note: for all the following probably have either separate or maybe some common grounds.

     a.  nominal 12Kv 25 Hz AC feeders

     b.  600 v DC for the third rail

     c.  Unknown for sure but 100 Hz 4400v AC  signal power (PRR  but may have been changed )

     d.  440v 3 phase 60 Hz AC for tube sump pumps and ventilation fans

     e .  Unknow power for lighting and work force power equipment ( probably 120 / 240 3 phase single  phase.

     f.  emergency phone usually 48v DC talk / 105 AC ring.

     g.  various conrol circuits for equipment.  

      h.  EDIT:   Possible that 138 Kv feeders to transformers are in the tunnel as well.  Transformers in NYP have to be fed from somewhere and using the two source rule may also be in East river tunnels. 

 25.  With all the above electric systems any corrision of wires may be a problem.  For the CAT power a high resistance short to the cast iron tube may start a weaking of the wall.  Anyone know if there is a Circuit breaker trip the dispatcher has the train(s) lower pans and circuit tested for shorts ? Then if OK  restore power and allow trains to continue.     

 26.  It may be that some Cathotic protections of the cast iron tubes have been reduced because of Sandy corrison.

27.  Of concern: is there operative tunnel plugs on the NY side to prevent water entering NYP station in case of a major leak into the tunnel(s) that cannot be handled by the sump pumps.?

 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, July 27, 2015 8:57 AM

Yes, but the policy was (and is?) to keep them open so Penn. Sta. itself would not be flooded!   This was Amtrak's (and NJT's and LIRR's?)  decision.

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Posted by NorthWest on Monday, July 27, 2015 11:57 AM

Isn't NYP higher than the bottom of the tunnels under the river, so they would flood long before water reached the station?

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, July 27, 2015 1:13 PM

The point about north river tunnel flood doors is that in case of a catastrophic failure of a tunnel hudson river water would not flood the NYP tracks which are below sea level.  During "Sandy" the river went over flood walls on the east side of the Hudson along Manhattan.  Those waters though not extensive were enough to flood the west end tracks of NYP.  A decision was made to let the waters go into the tunels. In hindsight the water was not Hudson river fresh water but was salt water pushed up the Hudson by the Sandy winds and maybe should have been kept out of the Hudson tunnels.  It was a decision to protect the track, third rail, signals, and switch machines at NYP.  Does anyone remember if LIRR had moved their EMUs from the west side yard  ?  That location would have needed protection as well.

As well East river tunnels 1 & 2 received some water from the Queens side but were somewhat protected by temporary water filled bladder dams.  Bladders protected 3 & 4 which did not get any water.  That is why east river tunnels 1 & 2 are scheduled to need 1 + year each closure for "Sandy" repairs.  That is in addition to the temporary closures that have ocasionally already occurred and will in the future.  If the water had not gone into the North river tunnels the overflow might have back filled all the east river tunnels.

  Gets darned complicated does't it ? 

Seems to me to prevent any future flooding that operative flood doors need to be installed on all tunnel entrances.  4 in Queens, 4 on east river tunnels at NYP and 2 on North river tunnels at NYP.  Understand north river tunnel portals in NJ come out above sea level. 

As well flood doors on any ventilation shafts that are close to sea level.  

 

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Posted by Wizlish on Monday, July 27, 2015 3:23 PM

blue streak 1
In hindsight the water was not Hudson river fresh water but was salt water pushed up the Hudson by the Sandy winds

"Hudson River fresh water" at 33rd St.?  The salt front is at Tappan Zee even in normal conditions, and it's been known to go as far north as Poughkeepsie...

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, July 27, 2015 3:36 PM

Blue Streak, you are correct.   And yes, LIRR did move all its mu equipment to high ground.   Very little MN and LIRR rolling stock, perhaps none, was damaged.  Also true of the subway system and PATH.  NJT was alone in not using all precautions.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, July 27, 2015 7:40 PM

Wizlish
 

"Hudson River fresh water" at 33rd St.?  The salt front is at Tappan Zee even in normal conditions, and it's been known to go as far north as Poughkeepsie...

 

 
Yes but some business adm major(s) who had never taken a chemistry  course might have thought that a diluted sea water solution was OK.  Its all about those sodium and chlorine ions that matter. 
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, July 29, 2015 11:15 AM

Interesting article.  Important item says that 2 of 4 feeders in tunnel failed.  That may have been either 12Kv CAT  power or maybe it might be that  138Kv feeders are in the tunnel as well that Amtrak uses to feed 12 Kv CAT transformers.  Anyone know ?

http://www.northjersey.com/news/analysis-committing-cash-is-key-to-hudson-tunnel-talk-1.1382096

    EDIT:    Probably that 138 Kv feeders to NYP transformers are in the tunnel as well.  Transformers in NYP have to be fed from somewhere and using the two source rule may also be in East river tunnels as well. Power sources Mutchken  ( SP? )  and Sunnyside.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 29, 2015 12:39 PM

Actually, most subway equipment was not only on high ground but underground as well.   Rockaway Park, Coney Island, and Westechester Av. yards were emptied, and no equipment was south of 42nd Street in Manhattan.  The Washington Heights subway tunnels, A and 1, were filled.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, October 1, 2015 9:55 PM
The almost weekly CAT or signal power failure on the MARC section of Amtrak's Penn line failed again Signal power failure this evening.  What has happened to the backup commercial power for signals that Amtrak is supposed to be installing ?. 
 

MARC Service Alert <alert@mtamarylandalerts.com> All Penn Line trains will experience major delays due to a signal power outage between West Baltimore and Washington. The trains are moving and all trains have lights and climate control. Trains will

To
MTA Maryland Alerts Subscriber

 

 
Today at 9:10 PM
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, October 8, 2015 12:55 PM
Second time this week more signal problems.
 

MARC Service Alert <alert@mtamarylandalerts.com> MARC 428 (410 dpt WAS) has departed Washington and is operating with a delay of approximately 20-25 minutes due to signal issues in Washington.  

To
MTA Maryland Alerts Subscriber

 

 
Oct 7 at 4:35 PM
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, November 6, 2015 7:10 PM

Second time this week another failure on the nEC section that MARC travels.

To

MTA Maryland Alerts Subscriber

 

 
Today at 5:31 PM
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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, November 7, 2015 2:37 AM

blue streak 1

Second time this week another failure on the nEC section that MARC travels.

To

MTA Maryland Alerts Subscriber

 

 
Today at 5:31 PM

Signal issues at Washington Union Terminal - it also delayed all the VRE, diesel opeated commuter trains to Manassas and Fredericksburg.

As signal systems become more electronic and more complex, diagnosing and fixing the problems can be more involved and time consuming.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, November 8, 2015 12:02 AM

Until signal equipment and system designers learn to design with self-diagnosing features, as EMD and GE have done with locomotives.

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, November 8, 2015 12:29 AM

daveklepper

Until signal equipment and system designers learn to design with self-diagnosing features, as EMD and GE have done with locomotives.

Even then - the self diagnosis doesn't necessarily point to the exact problem nor does it necessarily identify the proper fix.

Seen too many technicians get to the point that computer board XYZ is bad - they install a new board XYZ and the failure repeats itself immediately - something caused XYZ to fail and it isn't in XYZ itself - that is when you have to know your stuff.  And board XYZ only costs several thousand dollars a pop!

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Posted by schlimm on Sunday, November 8, 2015 7:46 AM

Maybe you should bring back ball signals as a reliable backup to the backup!!   You can never be over-protected.

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