-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
One thing that BWI station could definitely use is a people mover of some sort rather than the present shuttle bus.
rcdryeA ride on the 1980s/1990s Metroliner would feel about like a regional today.
A ride on an 1980s/90s regional train felt the same as a ride on a Metroliner service train. The only difference was seat pitch.
I did quite a bit of riding back in those days
rcdrye NEC load factor includes all stations from Boston to Washington. Anyone who has ridden an Acela or Regional train all the way from Boston to Washington knows full well that the train load goes way up in New York. Philadelphia-Baltimore is very near, if not at, the peak of traffic density on the corridor. One of the reasons for the ride quality change in the last 30 years is that allowed speeds for regional trains are quite a bit higher. A ride on the 1980s/1990s Metroliner would feel about like a regional today.
NEC load factor includes all stations from Boston to Washington. Anyone who has ridden an Acela or Regional train all the way from Boston to Washington knows full well that the train load goes way up in New York. Philadelphia-Baltimore is very near, if not at, the peak of traffic density on the corridor.
One of the reasons for the ride quality change in the last 30 years is that allowed speeds for regional trains are quite a bit higher. A ride on the 1980s/1990s Metroliner would feel about like a regional today.
Anyone who has ridden a train only knows what she sees, usually confined to the car that she is ridding in, on the day that she is traveling. Her experience is not indicative or predictive of the days that she is not on the train. A personal experience is not a statistical sample and, therefore, cannot be projected to the population, i.e. all riders on that train, all trains, etc., for a period as a whole.
The only folks who can tell us the load factors on the NEC, or any other train for that matter, are persons with access to Amtrak's rider database(s). I have filed an FOIA request to get it. If they will turn the data loose, I'll bet that it will take me a year or more to get it.
Planning in advance can reap significant fare savings.
If one can book a flight 21 days in advance, the round trip price from Atlanta to BWI on Southwest for July 17th would be $229.80. The 7:10 a.m. flight gets to BWI at 9:00 a.m. And there is a 7:00 p.m. return flight the same day that would have one home in time to snuggle up with the spouse or the dog, whichever has the highest priority, in one's own bed. There are numerous earlier departures. Waiting raises the price. The 14 day price jumps to $439.80.
A direct flight on Delta for July 17th from Atlanta to Philadelphia would be $372.80. On July 10th it would be $651.80. The 7:40 a.m. departure would put one in the City of Brotherly Love by 9:40 a.m., which would leave plenty of time for late morning and afternoon meetings. The 6:15 p.m. or 7:15 p.m. return flights would get one home in plenty of time to sooth rover's separation anxiety pangs due to his love's absence. Spouse probably not so much unless newly wed.
The round trip coach fare on Amtrak for July 16th, necessary to get to Philadelphia by July 17th, would be $388, whilst the fare and accommodation charge for a Viewliner roomettee would be $1,082. Presumably the coach passenger would want to buy some eats in the dinning car or lounge car, thereby bringing the cost of coach travel on a par with the two week advance booking into BWI on Southwest. If one goes into BWI to transfer to a train to Philadelphia, he has to add in the cost of the train fare from BWI to Philadelphia.
These are the some of the reasons why most business people cannot afford a night on the train. Unless they work for a business that either has no competition or does not plan to be in business much longer. Or they don't matter, which is not a good place to be in.
Walk-up fares are much higher, of course, but if my experience is any indication, most business trips can be planned far enough in advance to take advantage of the 14 and 21 day booking rates.
John WR Actually, you don't have to pay $700 extra if you take the train between Atlanta and Philadelphia. You do have to plan ahead, though. For a July 29 departure returning on August 2 in a roomette the round trip fare is only $541. Of course people who decline to sleep in the train would not ride Amtrak at any price.
Actually, you don't have to pay $700 extra if you take the train between Atlanta and Philadelphia. You do have to plan ahead, though.
For a July 29 departure returning on August 2 in a roomette the round trip fare is only $541.
Of course people who decline to sleep in the train would not ride Amtrak at any price.
I probably would have bit on $541...(the extra $~100 I'd chalk up to "railfan entertainment") but I needed it to be Thurs - Sun or Fri - Mon. I had only one vacation day to burn on the trip - and I only had a few weeks lead time to plan.
I'm sorry about the incorrectly attributed quotation, Sam. I deleted it.
John
and I agree.
dakotafred oltmannd henry6 You're talking less than $200 or 15% difference less actually. From a marketing standpoint that is competitive not "WAAAY too expensive." No. $700 difference. $1100 for the Crescent. $400 for NEC/BWI. That's WAAAY too large a difference. The Airtran/Southwest flights were $110 each. Amtrak was $42 and $32. Hotel was $100. Flew up on Friday AM. Arrived Philadelphia just after the Crescent. Left Philadelphia at 9:30 PM Sunday, about 5 hours after the Crescent. Arrived in ATL about same time as Crescent. Depends on what you're traveling for, of course, and on your circumstances. I will say that, at the end of my life, I won't count as a win $700 saved on a opportunity lost to ride a sleeping car Atlanta-Philadelphia.
oltmannd henry6 You're talking less than $200 or 15% difference less actually. From a marketing standpoint that is competitive not "WAAAY too expensive." No. $700 difference. $1100 for the Crescent. $400 for NEC/BWI. That's WAAAY too large a difference. The Airtran/Southwest flights were $110 each. Amtrak was $42 and $32. Hotel was $100. Flew up on Friday AM. Arrived Philadelphia just after the Crescent. Left Philadelphia at 9:30 PM Sunday, about 5 hours after the Crescent. Arrived in ATL about same time as Crescent.
henry6 You're talking less than $200 or 15% difference less actually. From a marketing standpoint that is competitive not "WAAAY too expensive."
You're talking less than $200 or 15% difference less actually. From a marketing standpoint that is competitive not "WAAAY too expensive."
No. $700 difference. $1100 for the Crescent. $400 for NEC/BWI. That's WAAAY too large a difference.
The Airtran/Southwest flights were $110 each. Amtrak was $42 and $32. Hotel was $100.
Flew up on Friday AM. Arrived Philadelphia just after the Crescent. Left Philadelphia at 9:30 PM Sunday, about 5 hours after the Crescent. Arrived in ATL about same time as Crescent.
Depends on what you're traveling for, of course, and on your circumstances. I will say that, at the end of my life, I won't count as a win $700 saved on a opportunity lost to ride a sleeping car Atlanta-Philadelphia.
And, that's why the sleepers aren't empty.
John WR Sam1I think load factor is at best a rough estimate for availability of space on a train. Sam, If you want to talk about averages you are talking to the wrong guy. I don't like averages because I think they distort important things that happen at the ends of the continuum. I like frequency distributions. But if we used frequency distributions with something like Amtrak we would almost immediately be deluged with a mass of data that is too great to handle. Now if you think that I have a bug in the lower portion of my anatomy about averages, you are right. Everybody uses them. I don't suggest you should not use them. I just don't like them. John
Sam1I think load factor is at best a rough estimate for availability of space on a train.
Sam,
If you want to talk about averages you are talking to the wrong guy. I don't like averages because I think they distort important things that happen at the ends of the continuum. I like frequency distributions. But if we used frequency distributions with something like Amtrak we would almost immediately be deluged with a mass of data that is too great to handle.
Now if you think that I have a bug in the lower portion of my anatomy about averages, you are right. Everybody uses them. I don't suggest you should not use them. I just don't like them.
It appears that you have quoted yourself and attributed it to me.
A frequency distribution could tell you the distirubiton of the load factor by quartiles or quintiles for a population. But one would still need to know the load factor for each segment to determine if the capacity utilization is for the route, one segment, or multiple segments.
Amtrak only gives us averages by route. Having said that, it is difficult to imagine that an average load factor of 48 per cent translates into 100 per cent very often for the route or any one segment.
Sam1 [Several years ago a person who used to participate in these forums made a reasonably good argument that 65 per cent is near the capacity for a railroad train, although he did not have any supporting data to back-up his argument. . And I would be further surprised if Amtrak, like the airlines, does not sell more tickets than it has seats, especially during peak periods, to optimize revenue.
[Several years ago a person who used to participate in these forums made a reasonably good argument that 65 per cent is near the capacity for a railroad train, although he did not have any supporting data to back-up his argument.
. And I would be further surprised if Amtrak, like the airlines, does not sell more tickets than it has seats, especially during peak periods, to optimize revenue.
John WR I think load factor is at best a rough estimate for availability of space on a train. The reason is that not all riders get in at the first station and ride all the miles up to the last station. People get on an off during the trip. Load factor is the relationship of passenger miles to seat miles. If you have people riding for relatively short distances (such as BWI to Philadelphia) the seats can be filled on that part of the journey may there may be empty seats before BWI and after Philadelphia. Unlike the private railroads that preceded it, Amtrak does not sell more tickets that it has seats, not even for short distances. That will tend to decrease the load factor.
I think load factor is at best a rough estimate for availability of space on a train. The reason is that not all riders get in at the first station and ride all the miles up to the last station. People get on an off during the trip. Load factor is the relationship of passenger miles to seat miles. If you have people riding for relatively short distances (such as BWI to Philadelphia) the seats can be filled on that part of the journey may there may be empty seats before BWI and after Philadelphia.
Unlike the private railroads that preceded it, Amtrak does not sell more tickets that it has seats, not even for short distances. That will tend to decrease the load factor.
The average load factor takes into consideration all the segments. It could be very high on one segment, i.e. BWI to Phildelphia, but at roughly 48 per cent most segments served by the NEC regional trains are operating way under capacity.
Several years ago a person who used to participate in these forums made a reasonably good argument that 65 per cent is near the capacity for a railroad train, although he did not have any supporting data to back-up his argument.
Amtrak uses a yield management system like those used by the airlines. These systems contain some robust predictive algorithms. I would be surprised if Amtrak's does not contain a "no show" factor. And I would be further surprised if Amtrak, like the airlines, does not sell more tickets than it has seats, especially during peak periods, to optimize revenue.
Good luck and thanks for trying! It would be very interesting.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
V.Payne BWI is an alright station. I used it about a month ago when going to 30th street on a Regional as well. Generally for me the limit is a bit over 750-900 miles for a train trip be it overnight or daytime so Southwest does indeed work from there. The regional I was on was literally completely sold out, middle of the week, about 2 PM. One guy walked around looking for the last seat. They could easily be running 14 car regional trains and filling them it seems.
BWI is an alright station. I used it about a month ago when going to 30th street on a Regional as well. Generally for me the limit is a bit over 750-900 miles for a train trip be it overnight or daytime so Southwest does indeed work from there.
The regional I was on was literally completely sold out, middle of the week, about 2 PM. One guy walked around looking for the last seat. They could easily be running 14 car regional trains and filling them it seems.
Must have been a bit unusual. The average load factor on the NEC regional trains in 2012 was 48.3 per cent. To be sure, the load factor can vary significantly from day to day and segment to segment, but I am hard pressed to believe that the capacity constraints on the NEC are as great as some claim. The average load factor on the Acela during 2012 was 62.5 per cent. It would be nice to see the load factors for each day and each segment of the NEC for a year.
In 2008 I asked Dallas Area Rapid Transit for the load factor for each of its bus and rail routes. I never believed that they would give it to me. They did. I got each route as well as every bus and train for the first half of 2007. The even sent me the data on Excel spreadsheets. Now I am testing my luck again. I have filed a Freedom of Information Request with Amtrak for similar information on the NEC. It will be interesting to see what I get.
oltmannd Sam1In addition, at least in my case, I have never gotten off an overnight train feeling completely rested. Me, too. Mostly because I thought I would be missing something! Never had any trouble getting to sleep, but staying there after 4 hours or so was tough. I tend to wake up when the train stops...
Sam1In addition, at least in my case, I have never gotten off an overnight train feeling completely rested.
Me, too. Mostly because I thought I would be missing something! Never had any trouble getting to sleep, but staying there after 4 hours or so was tough. I tend to wake up when the train stops...
Sam1 schlimm Does MARC have frequent service to DC from BWI? There are approximately 24 weekday trains a day from BWI to Washington's Union Station. The one way fare is $6.00. It is $3.00 for seniors. I have found that hotel prices in the Baltimore area can be as much as 50 per cent less than in D.C. for the same class of accommodation. Baltimore, by the way, is worth a visit. The harbor area is neat. And the B&O Railway Museum is worth a visit.
schlimm Does MARC have frequent service to DC from BWI?
Does MARC have frequent service to DC from BWI?
There are approximately 24 weekday trains a day from BWI to Washington's Union Station. The one way fare is $6.00. It is $3.00 for seniors.
I have found that hotel prices in the Baltimore area can be as much as 50 per cent less than in D.C. for the same class of accommodation. Baltimore, by the way, is worth a visit. The harbor area is neat. And the B&O Railway Museum is worth a visit.
Just put up some pictures on my blog. Also a few from NJT Atlantic City Line.
I always felt very good and very rested after a night in sleeping accommodations on a decent train. There were exceptions, like a derailment causing a bus bridge in the middle of the night, or a sleeper on a local train that the railroad truly wanted to discontiniiue and thus left couopled to the switcher while sorting cars at a junction in the middle of the night, but those were exceptions. And the huge joy of waking up in the morning after a good night's rest with thoughts of good French Toast in the diner and a whole day sightseeing on a transcontinental, well that was really living. When Amtrak did provide a shower, on a few trips toward the end of my USA and Canadian travels, I still opted to simply scrub myself with a wet towel and stay in the roomette or bedroom, however. On one business trip I spent five successive nights in sleepers: NYNH&H Owl, Boston-NY, PRR-Southern. NY-Greensboro, Southern-WPRoute-L&N, Greensboro-New Orleans (streetcar riding included), KCS, NO-Shreveport (and rode the trackless trolley there as well as attended to business), and KCS-MP Shrreveport-St. Louis. I would have liked to take the NYC back to Boston, but had to fly back to make a meeting. That particular year I think I spent about 10% of my nights in sleeping cars and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Sam1 Clearly, the BWI station is not 30th Street or Washington Union Station. But it works.
Clearly, the BWI station is not 30th Street or Washington Union Station. But it works.
It needs a bigger waiting room and restrooms - and the walkway over the tracks is a bit scummy. But, you are right. It works.
Thanks for the travelogue, Don. This is the kind of information I find most helpful.
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