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Atlanta - Chalrotte Passenger Rail

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Posted by schlimm on Friday, May 31, 2013 9:03 PM

John WR

oltmannd
You have it backward.  The states work with Amtrak.  The push (and money) come from the states.  Amtrak does not go to the states and say, "Hey! Want to fund some new service here?"   

Well yes.  But the states that are willing to fund service have that service.  I cannot explain why Amtrak does not have another stop in Atlanta.  Can you explain why the Acela stops at Back Bay which is one mile from South Station, Boston?

Maybe they stop at Back Bay because they always did before Amtrak, while adding a new stop in suburban Atlanta would represent a change from the past.  Amtrak's problem seems to be an inability to adapt and change.

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Posted by John WR on Friday, May 31, 2013 7:22 PM

oltmannd
You have it backward.  The states work with Amtrak.  The push (and money) come from the states.  Amtrak does not go to the states and say, "Hey! Want to fund some new service here?"   

Well yes.  But the states that are willing to fund service have that service.  I cannot explain why Amtrak does not have another stop in Atlanta.  Can you explain why the Acela stops at Back Bay which is one mile from South Station, Boston?

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, May 31, 2013 12:58 PM

I do not know if Dave means Greensboro or Greenville. Back when the Southern had six or so passenger trains between Washington and Atlanta, the Peach Queen  provided overnight service from New York to Greensboro and Charlotte, and arrived in Greenville just before noon. The Piedmont Limited left Charlotte at noon and Greenville about four, and arrived in New Orleans the next morning. If he had gone back to New York directly, the Crescent would have been the train to take from Greenville or Charlotte, and the Piedmont Limited would have been the one to take from Greensboro.

However, these days are gone forever, it seems.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, May 31, 2013 9:39 AM

In fact I did have trips to Charlotte and Greensburg.   But that was in the Southern Railroad pre-Amtrak days and I could go overnight on the Owl from Boston to NY, spend a day working in BBN's NY office, and then get a sleeper with a decent time of arrival in Charlotte or Greensburg (Gulf Coast Limited, former Havana Speical?  Forget which train.).   Going home the vey late departure of the Crescent wasn't a problem.  On occasion, I would continiue on the Piedmont to New Orleans for further work, and then the Sunset to LA or the Flying Crow? to Shreveport, or the overnight MP sleeper to Houston, then reverse and the City of New Orleans to Jackson, and the Panama to Chicago, or just to Champaign for further work (UofI).

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Friday, May 31, 2013 8:57 AM

The Piedmont and Carolinian schedules are integrated to compliment each other.

The Carolinian originates in Charlotte in the morning and the Piedmont originates in Raleigh in the morning, providing opposite direction service.  Approximately noon, the Piedmont returns from Charlotte to Raleigh and another Piedmont originates in Raleigh.  At evening rush hour, the Noon Piedmont train returns from Charlotte to Raleigh and the Carolinian passes through Raleigh on it's way back to Charlotte from NYP.

NCRR owns the track and makes money leasing it to NS & CSX.  It, therefor operates without state funds.  There are plans to add an additional round trip, if the money is sufficient.  The recent political reversal in the state government has resulted in money being diverted from NCRR to the general fund.

I think it makes perfect sense to extend one or more of those trains to Atlanta.

I don't know what the schedules will be when the Southeast Corridor is completed.

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, May 31, 2013 7:57 AM

John WR
Right now North Carolina funds Piedmont service.  There are 4 trains a day, two in each direction, serving the state.  If Georgia, South Carolina and Virginia would do the same thing they could have daytime service between Atlanta and New York.  

There are three Piedmonts.  NC owns the RR, the equipment and directs and markets the service.  Amtrak pretty much just operates the trains.  The fourth train is the Carolinian - a day train to NY.  That and the Palmetto were probably the last two Amtrak-initiated attempts at providing service based on demographics - day trains through a growing region.  They are both 30+ years old now.

The Carolinian might have started as a 403b train - I'm not sure, but I don't think so.  The Palmetto was the result of flipping (and cutting back) the third overnight NY- FL train.

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, May 31, 2013 7:49 AM

John WR
I am struck by the fact that Virginia won't.  Virgina already funds trains about halfway through the state.  If it would add enough to connect with North Carolina's Piedmonts there could be rail service for those two states to Washington with easy connections if not through service to New York.  

I assume you mean restoring the Petersburg to Raleigh direct route?  What do you mean Virginia "won't"?  From what I read, I'd say they "want to" and have been funding the engineering work that has to be completed before anyone lifts a shovel.

VA has committed to funding the extension of Lynchburg train to Roanoke.  In terms of intercity funding passenger rail service improvements, I'd put VA in third place behind CA and IL.

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Posted by schlimm on Friday, May 31, 2013 6:50 AM

oltmannd

John WR
I agree with Dave.  Amtrak does look to demographics and that is why it is working with the states to set up inter city service.  And Amtrak will continue to work with states to set up inter city service.  

You have it backward.  The states work with Amtrak.  The push (and money) come from the states.  Amtrak does not go to the states and say, "Hey! Want to fund some new service here?"   

Can you explain why Amtrak has no suburban Atlanta stop?  I know for a fact they have never approached NS about the possibility.

Perhaps the answer is a US/state government "Network Rail" to provide capital for expanded infrastructure and maintenance on current and future passenger routes.  If the route is a private freight line, some shared cost arrangements could be negotiated.   Privatize the operating services as Don has mentioned.  The routes that are determined to be necessary to serve low population areas could be heavily subsidized by those states.

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, May 31, 2013 4:51 AM

John WR
I agree with Dave.  Amtrak does look to demographics and that is why it is working with the states to set up inter city service.  And Amtrak will continue to work with states to set up inter city service.  

You have it backward.  The states work with Amtrak.  The push (and money) come from the states.  Amtrak does not go to the states and say, "Hey! Want to fund some new service here?"   

Can you explain why Amtrak has no suburban Atlanta stop?  I know for a fact they have never approached NS about the possibility.

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, May 31, 2013 4:46 AM

daveklepper

I used the Crescent overnight fairly frequently and could not have used it as a day train nearly as often.

I'd bet you weren't headed to Charlotte, Greenville or Spartansburg...

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Posted by John WR on Friday, May 31, 2013 3:14 AM

oltmannd
These are just a few example of places that have changed a great deal since the 1970s.  It's not Congress that's holding them back.  I'm not talking about new routes, just existing service on existing routes.

Don,  

I agree with Dave.  Amtrak does look to demographics and that is why it is working with the states to set up inter city service.  And Amtrak will continue to work with states to set up inter city service.  

But, and it is a big but, Joe Boardman has stated fairly clearly that in 1970 Congress made a contract with the American people to maintain the long distance routes and while he is President Amtrak will honor that contract.  The contract trumps current demographic trends.  And Amtrak's Board of Directors has just renewed Boardman's contract for two more years so it appears that the Board agrees with Joe Boardman.  

Right now North Carolina funds Piedmont service.  There are 4 trains a day, two in each direction, serving the state.  If Georgia, South Carolina and Virginia would do the same thing they could have daytime service between Atlanta and New York.   But the other states are unwilling to come up with with funding.   I am struck by the fact that Virginia won't.  Virgina already funds trains about halfway through the state.  If it would add enough to connect with North Carolina's Piedmonts there could be rail service for those two states to Washington with easy connections if not through service to New York.  

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, May 31, 2013 3:06 AM

Schlimm::   Agree   ---   however Amtrak is a creature of congress because those routes you mention just needs congress' money for ROW improvements esp to double track the single track  ROW and money to buy equipment & money to operate trains ( not a lot if Phoeebe's service levels are obtained )

UK has network rail which is providing large amounts to capital to improve ROW.  Network rail as I nderstand it gets its pounds from the government ?

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Posted by schlimm on Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:31 PM

daveklepper

What routes in the NE have been stagnent or loosing populaton where Amtrak actually runs trains?  I don't seen any Boston Montreal service (formerly available on four different routes at one time) or Boston -Maritimes, just north to Portland and Brunzwick.  I think Amtrak planners do look at Demographics, but it is really Congress that determines what the route structure is.

The Harrisburg to Pittsburgh train for one.  Empire service (13 trains each way between NYP and Albany?) for another.  in 1950, Albany had its population peak of 134,995; now only 97,856.  if one looks at the MSA which also contains Schenectady and Troy, the population has increased from 746,844 in 1970 to 874,646 in 2012, a 17% increase.  The US overall went from 203.2 mil in 1970 to 313.9 mil. in 2012, a 54% increase.   If one looked at metro areas in the southeast, such as Atlanta or Charlotte, etc., the rate of increase would be even more.  Yet Amtrak (not Congress) has chosen to continue and even beef up services in places where the population growth isn't there.  Why?  Just guessing, but probably because of its legacy route structure and it is easier to go along to get along.  
Blaming Amtrak's woes all on Congress or politics is a convenient scapegoat.   It has a 40 year history of maintaining the status quo.  To achieve any real improvements it looks more and more like we need to privatize operations, as has been done in Japan, UK and even Germany to some degree.  While in the latter, I noted that DB wants to take back some local/regional services it let go in the past.  Why?  Because the private contractors are making an operating profit!!

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:50 PM

The Crescent comes through Charlotte at 2AM in both directions.  It would be nice if there was a second trip at 2PM.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, May 30, 2013 1:31 PM

I used the Crescent overnight fairly frequently and could not have used it as a day train nearly as often.

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Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, May 30, 2013 12:12 PM

daveklepper
 I think Amtrak planners do look at Demographics, but it is really Congress that determines what the route structure is.

If they looked at demographics, there would be a stop or two in suburban Atlanta.  There isn't.  There hasn't even been a whiff of one.

If they looked at demographics, the Crescent schedule would be flipped so that it hit the Piedmont during the day.  Again, this hasn't happened - not even a whiff. 

If they looked at demographics, they would have pushed for some intra-FL trains.  Again, not a whiff.

These are just a few example of places that have changed a great deal since the 1970s.  It's not Congress that's holding them back.  I'm not talking about new routes, just existing service on existing routes.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, May 30, 2013 10:30 AM

What routes in the NE have been stagnent or loosing populaton where Amtrak actually runs trains?  I don't seen any Boston Montreal service (formerly available on four different routes at one time) or Boston -Maritimes, just north to Portland and Brunzwick.  I think Amtrak planners do look at Demographics, but it is really Congress that determines what the route structure is.

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Posted by schlimm on Thursday, May 30, 2013 10:02 AM

oltmannd

schlimm
The geniuses in planning at Amtrak seem to still be looking at 1970 (or earlier!) census demographics.

It doesn't appear they are looking at any census data.  How does census data effect "running trains"? Smile

Routes that are based on population demographics of 40-60+ years ago would be fine if the demographics had stayed the same.  Since the presumed goal of passenger rail service is to serve people, routes, especially in huge growth areas like the southeast need to change.  This may also mean that some routes away from the NEC in the northeast are running through areas that have had stagnant or ven declining populations for 60-70 years.   of course, if Amtrak's guiding principle is "running trains" as they've been forever, then it doesn't matter.

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Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, May 30, 2013 9:43 AM

Phoebe Vet

blue streak 1

The 258 miles ATL - CLT compares favorable with the 284 miles CHI - STL.  However the population base of ATL is probably much less ? The ability to connect at both STL & CHI is much better than CLT's Piedmont service. Can anyone imagine the 3 states agreeing on costs or anything much less this service ?

Population of ATL   432,427

Population of the ATL Metro Area   5,457,831

Population of CLT   751,087

Population of the CLT Metro Area   2,442,564

I think that is large enough to support a rail link.

And Greenville - Spartansburg comes in at 1.2M for gravy.

Versus 120K for Athens GA area and 200K for Augusta area.  Why are routes through there even being looked at?

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Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, May 30, 2013 9:31 AM

Deggesty

The route through Columbia and Augusta currently is right at 362 miles long; I am sure some miles could be cut off by building a new track. This route, of course, would leave Piedmont South Carolina high and dry.

Agree. An obvious loser.  It's only in there so Augusta doesn't feel left out and GA doesn't think its doing it all for SC's benefit.

Another obvious loser is the CSX Abbeville sub to Greenwood, then on to Charlotte.  Only Athens is on the route.  Abbeville sub is less suitable passenger speeds than NS Piedmont.

Another obvious loser is the !-85 alignment.  Not so bad in GA, but SC has lots and lots of killer vertical curves.  Plus, cost to build make it almost as bad as greenfield.

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Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, May 30, 2013 6:57 AM

matthewsaggie
This will be worth watching, but until the SEHSR project gets to Charlotte, this is WAY out in he future. The final result of this study should be a complete Phase one EA and probably has a 4-5 year study time. Lots of $ for consultants.

Yup.  This is a GADOT "feed the consultants" deal.  

The timeline shows a mid-2015 end date for this phase - which appears to be only route selection.

http://dot.ga.gov/travelingingeorgia/rail/AtlantatoCharlotte/Documents/Schedule.pdf

We're going to study all sorts of "connect the dots" routes.  They'll model trip times and ridership and estimate costs to implement and in the end, it'll be the route that connects the largest "dots" on the shortest path on an existing - or mostly existing - rail route.  And that would be the existing NS route.  We have to wait two years to hear this result, though.

Worse yet, the consultants will only have to dust off some work they did less than a decade ago and update it and amplify it, but will get paid like it's "fresh work".  

If they were serious about service along the Piedmont, they'd take 10 minutes and look at flipping the Crescent's schedule.  Then, if that produced meaningful results, look into adding some frequency to the service.  Then if that worked, look into reducing trip times.

This ain't rocket science. 

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Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, May 30, 2013 6:43 AM

schlimm
The geniuses in planning at Amtrak seem to still be looking at 1970 (or earlier!) census demographics.

It doesn't appear they are looking at any census data.  How does census data effect "running trains"? Smile

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, May 29, 2013 9:44 PM

The route through Columbia and Augusta currently is right at 362 miles long; I am sure some miles could be cut off by building a new track. This route, of course, would leave Piedmont South Carolina high and dry.

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Posted by matthewsaggie on Wednesday, May 29, 2013 9:35 PM

As usual, the media is getting out a little ahead of reality on this. I actually had the opportunity to read the scoping document on this today while at the Charlotte city hall. At this point the study is at what's called the scoping phase, where any interested stakeholders can both identify themselves and suggest items that they feel should be considered in an upcoming environmental assessment. The EA document. 

This study is not being done by Amtrak, but is being led by  GaDOT along with the FRA. Amtrak is a stakeholder, along with NS and CSX, the 3 state DOT's, all the cities that his might pass through, the MPO's for each metro area, the resource agencies, etc., etc., etc. The public meetings referenced in the article are opportunities for the public at large to state opinions as stakeholders before the process starts.

They have identified possible routes from the past study for further consideration. If I recall what I read today, they were 1) the current NS, 2) a route through Athens GA, 3) a route through greenwood, SC, 4) a NS to Columbia, the NS to Augusta and on to Atlanta on CSX, 5) a route using existing medians and rights-of-way along I-85. (Note, I may have the railroads mixed here as my memory is getting bad) .

This will be worth watching, but until the SEHSR project gets to Charlotte, this is WAY out in he future. The final result of this study should be a complete Phase one EA and probably has a 4-5 year study time. Lots of $ for consultants.

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Wednesday, May 29, 2013 7:36 PM

blue streak 1

The 258 miles ATL - CLT compares favorable with the 284 miles CHI - STL.  However the population base of ATL is probably much less ? The ability to connect at both STL & CHI is much better than CLT's Piedmont service. Can anyone imagine the 3 states agreeing on costs or anything much less this service ?

Population of ATL   432,427

Population of the ATL Metro Area   5,457,831

Population of CLT   751,087

Population of the CLT Metro Area   2,442,564

I think that is large enough to support a rail link.

Dave

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, May 29, 2013 7:16 PM

The 258 miles ATL - CLT compares favorable with the 284 miles CHI - STL.  However the population base of ATL is probably much less ? The ability to connect at both STL & CHI is much better than CLT's Piedmont service. Can anyone imagine the 3 states agreeing on costs or anything much less this service ?

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Wednesday, May 29, 2013 5:24 PM

It sounds like a good fit to me.  The track that will serve the new Charlotte Gateway Station already goes right past the Charlotte Airport and continues on south.

It's a bit of an exaggeration to call the SE Corridor "High speed rail", though.  I don't consider 110 MPH, 90MPH on some segments, to be high speed rail in today's world.

Dave

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Posted by A McIntosh on Wednesday, May 29, 2013 3:12 PM

I believe that this route is part of the Crescent Corridor. That being the case, this route will be upgraded anyway. The states of SC and GA could justify investing monies in this upgrade to expedite freight, but to add

capacity for passenger service as well.

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Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, May 29, 2013 3:11 PM

oltmannd
Spartanburg and Greenville were mere blips on the map when Amtrak took over the Crescent.  Anyone who's driven I-85 knows Charlotte south through SC is no rural backwater anymore.  It's a big market.  However, nobody at Amtrak seems to have noticed.

The geniuses in planning at Amtrak seem to still be looking at 1970 (or earlier!) census demographics.

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, May 29, 2013 2:07 PM

Oh, my.  Here we go again.  GADOT did a study 5 years or more ago.  Conclusion was existing route was okay for current speeds.   Lots and lots of curves to straighten to get to 90 mph.  Above that, new alignment.  

As - is and 90 mph would need operating subsidy.  New alignment might not, but big capital to invest.

Also relate was blurb in AJC about NS saying there is no spare capacity for passenger trains through the "Gulch" 

But, FWIW, you could get a good leg up if you just ran the Crescent as a day train north of Atlanta.  You could do this RIGHT NOW.  No big study needed.  Just do it.  Also, it wouldn't kill anybody to add an Atlanta suburban stop or two.

Spartanburg and Greenville were mere blips on the map when Amtrak took over the Crescent.  Anyone who's driven I-85 knows Charlotte south through SC is no rural backwater anymore.  It's a big market.  However, nobody at Amtrak seems to have noticed.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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