matthewsaggieI am tired of reading the whine about Phoenix
Actually Amtrak does serve Phoenix. It uses a Thruway Bus connection between Phoenix and the Flagstaff Station where the Southwest Chief provides daily service.
oltmanndIf your ridership is generally flat in an area that has grow leaps and bounds in the past 20 years, what would you call that? Remember, the Crescent's consist hasn't really changed in decades.
Don, I have no statistics over the past 20 years. I only have them over 2 years and it seems to me that the real problem with the statistics I gathered is precisely that they do cover only do years. Do you know of any statistics over a longer term?
John
DeggestyThree trains use the New Orleans station--would it be proper to say that 2 3/7 trains use the station since the Sunset runs only three out of seven days?
A very good point, Johnny. I went back and added a note to my post about it. I did not comment about the City of New Orleans stops because I am only talking about the Crescent between New Orleans and Atlanta.
Don:
Agree that SE RR museum is certainly a good location but having to use its grade crossing and going over the 2 industrial tracks might not be the best ? The vacant lot area just north east of the museum might be useable. By building an separate elevated station track & platform no super elevation needed ?
Agree that any new station tracks need full signaling where ever built. The help to NS in ATL will be great as they will no longer have to hold out freights from Peachtree station when a passenger train is in station. Those holdouts cost NS about 1:30 in time every day. Freight fluidity is very restricted at those times..
Good location for the intercity buses as well once the streetcar runs there. The Amtrak PRIIA proposal to run the Amtrak thruway buses would also have the necessary parking
blue streak 1Agree: except no need to drop Toccoa
No, you probably wouldn't have to...it's a flag stop right now, anyway.
blue streak 1Have not studied these locations so do not know if station can be built SE of track between NS and US29
One possible site would be adjacent to SE RR museum. Lease parking from them. Access off 29 is OK. No major road Xing issues. Double track at that location. Might have issues shoe-horning in platform - some track superelevation on curve...
blue streak 1Atlanta city needs to get off its rear end and build its proposed Amtrak station at Atlantic station.
Oh, my, yes. With a signalled station track. It would be a big help to NS, too. Might even be able to get them to split the $$ for the track and signal work. Put Greyhound in there and let Megabus stop at the curb. (They make a mess of the traffic on West Peach at Civic Center as it is now during rush hour.)
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmannd The difference is Atlanta's northern suburbs have >1M people. . Drop Toccoa. Add Duluth/Buford. QED
The difference is Atlanta's northern suburbs have >1M people. .
Drop Toccoa. Add Duluth/Buford. QED
schlimmToccoa 2011 3,826 2012 4,434 12 riders per day
It's about a 45 minute drive from Toccoa to Clemson SC and to Gainesville GA. That's no different than the drive from Atlanta's northern suburbs to the two closest stations.
The difference is Atlanta's northern suburbs have >1M people. The "metro Toccoa" has a few 10,000s.
blue streak 1 A very startling figure only found in the East coast trains report was the % of riders not counting children was ----------. 62% Lakeshore, 68% Star, 69% Meteor, 71% Crescent, 74% Palmetto were female riders. If this is true for all LD trains then IMHO Amtrak is not marketing these LD routes properly to this large of %.
A very startling figure only found in the East coast trains report was the % of riders not counting children was ----------.
62% Lakeshore, 68% Star, 69% Meteor, 71% Crescent, 74% Palmetto were female riders. If this is true for all LD trains then IMHO Amtrak is not marketing these LD routes properly to this large of %.
Maybe they have that market cornered. Perhaps they need to go after people who aren't already riding.
John WR I collected some figures from Amtrak's State Fact Sheets about ridership related to the Crescent. Altogether I don't think they support the proposition that large numbers of young people will, as they age, desert Amtrak but draw your on conclusions. Alabama. Overall ridership up 5.3 % in 2011 and 0.5 % in 2012. Georgia. Overall ridership up 4.2 % in 2011 but down 1.4 % in 2012. This includes all stations in Georgia for both Crescent and Silver Service Trains. Atlanta. 2011: 114,938 passengers. 2012: 104,854 passengers. Down 10,084 or 0.9 %. Toccoa. 2011: 3,826 " 2012: 4,434 " Up 608 or 15 %. Louisiana Overall ridership up 5.1 % in 2011 and 5.1 % (same amount) in 2012. (Includes all Louisiana riders: Crescent, City of New Orleans and Sunset Limited). NOLA 2011: 210,465 " 2012: 222,828 " Up 12,363 or 5.8 % (This includes all passengers who use Amtrak at New Orleans Union Terminal on above trains). Mississippi Overall ridership down 2.2 % in 2011 and 3.4 % in 2012. (This includes passengers on The Crescent and the City of New Oleans). Hattiesburg 2011 12,771 " 2012 12,951 " Up 180 or 1.4 % Laurel 2011 5,603 " 2012 5.484 " Down 119 or 2.1 % Meridian 2011 12,989 " 2012 12,120 " Down 869 or 6.7 % Picayune 2011 3,253 " 2012 2,971 " Down 282 or 8.0 % Slidell [I forgot Slidell the first time. Please give me until tomorrow to add it in.] Overall these figures are somewhat mixed. But I don't see that they support an overall decline in ridership. However, the single biggest limitation is that they cover only two years, the years Amtrak's fact sheets are available. PS. I went back and looked at Amtrak's on line archives. I cannot find and archived fact sheets or similar material. Does anyone else know how to access this?
I collected some figures from Amtrak's State Fact Sheets about ridership related to the Crescent. Altogether I don't think they support the proposition that large numbers of young people will, as they age, desert Amtrak but draw your on conclusions.
Alabama. Overall ridership up 5.3 % in 2011 and 0.5 % in 2012.
Georgia. Overall ridership up 4.2 % in 2011 but down 1.4 % in 2012. This includes all stations in Georgia for both Crescent and Silver Service Trains.
Atlanta. 2011: 114,938 passengers. 2012: 104,854 passengers. Down 10,084 or 0.9 %.
Toccoa. 2011: 3,826 " 2012: 4,434 " Up 608 or 15 %.
Louisiana Overall ridership up 5.1 % in 2011 and 5.1 % (same amount) in 2012. (Includes all Louisiana riders: Crescent, City of New Orleans and Sunset Limited).
NOLA 2011: 210,465 " 2012: 222,828 " Up 12,363 or 5.8 % (This includes all passengers who use Amtrak at New Orleans Union Terminal on above trains).
Mississippi Overall ridership down 2.2 % in 2011 and 3.4 % in 2012. (This includes passengers on The Crescent and the City of New Oleans).
Hattiesburg 2011 12,771 " 2012 12,951 " Up 180 or 1.4 %
Laurel 2011 5,603 " 2012 5.484 " Down 119 or 2.1 %
Meridian 2011 12,989 " 2012 12,120 " Down 869 or 6.7 %
Picayune 2011 3,253 " 2012 2,971 " Down 282 or 8.0 %
Slidell [I forgot Slidell the first time. Please give me until tomorrow to add it in.]
Overall these figures are somewhat mixed. But I don't see that they support an overall decline in ridership. However, the single biggest limitation is that they cover only two years, the years Amtrak's fact sheets are available.
PS. I went back and looked at Amtrak's on line archives. I cannot find and archived fact sheets or similar material. Does anyone else know how to access this?
If your ridership is generally flat in an area that has grow leaps and bounds in the past 20 years, what would you call that? Remember, the Crescent's consist hasn't really changed in decades.
I have no idea, but it is just another example of the problems with relying on the freight lines
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I am tired of reading the whine about Phoenix. If I recall, SP/UP took up the track back to the mainline west of downtown didn't they. If my poor memory is right, if there's no track, there's no train.
Three trains use the New Orleans station--would it be proper to say that 2 3/7 trains use the station since the Sunset runs only three out of seven days?
As to why Amtrak picked Greenwood as stop, Greenwood is a terminal for train crews (perhaps for engine crews as well), and Carbondale is also a terminal for train crews. Why Yazoo City? Perhaps the thought was that enough traffic would be generated to warrant a stop. The other stops are historic stops, though the Panama did not stop at all of them.
Johnny
Schlimm,
I was only considering the Crescent route between Atlanta and New Orleans. However, three trains use New Orleans Union Terminal and only the totals for all three trains are available for that particular place. I do list all stops along the route I focused on and I agree some have very few boardings and alightings.
All of the stops are for cities along the route. I don't know how Amtrak decides whether or not to stop at a particular place. Perhaps you have more insight into that than I do.
In Louisiana New Iberia, Schriever and Lake Charles are all on the Sunset Limited route. In Mississippi Hazelhurst and Yazoo City are on the City of New Orleans route. That is why I omitted them.
Actually, Amtrak does serve Phoenix, Arizona. It provides the "Arizona Shuttle," a bus connection from the Flagstaff Station to Phoenix and other points. From Phoenix the bus is an hour and it meets the Southwest Chief.
John WRI collected some figures from Amtrak's State Fact Sheets about ridership related to the Crescent. Altogether I don't think they support the proposition that large numbers of young people will, as they age, desert Amtrak but draw your on conclusions.
And the charts you pasted show nothing that would confirm or disprove Oltmann's proposition because they are irrelevant.
What they do show that there are several stops that have such low (and declining in one case) ridership they should be discontinued. And even though you only selected a few, these seem to have low ridership:
Picayune 2011 3,253 2012 2,971 8 riders per day
Toccoa 2011 3,826 2012 4,434 12 riders per day
Here are a few more in some states (2012) you used, sometimes for other trains like the Sunset:
New Iberia, LA 1670
Schriever, LA 1755
Lake Charles, LA 3438
Hazelhurst, MS 1960
Yazoo City, MS 3323
Amtrak continues to have trains stop at places with boardings + alightings of only 4.4 to 12 per day in 2012 and populations as low as 4400. One has to wonder if it is again a case of Amtrak just doing what they have always done. Obviously zero market analysis. Yet Amtrak does not serve Phoenix, AZ, with an MSA population = 4.2 million.
Louisiana Overall ridership up 5.1 % in 2011 and 5.1 % (same amount) in 2012. (Includes all Louisiana riders: Crescent, City of New Orleans and Sunset Limited. The Sunset Limited operates only 3 days a week. All other trains are daily.)
Slidell 2011 7,316 " 2012 7,101 " Down 215 or 2.9 %
oltmannd BaltACD oltmannd Overall, it looks like the "old (69%), educated (58%) lady (71%) express". Avg age is 58! This train will be completely useless in 20 years. It's only mostly useless now. So you are intimating that the 'young' people that won't use it today, won't age in twenty years and have the same reasons for using it as the 'old' people today have. The 'old' people of today are the 'Boomers' who have been the most 'road obsessed' of generations, subsequent generations have had more of a 'green' leaning and take more readily to public forms of transportation. No, you have it right. Young people will ride useful trains - perhaps more so than Boomers. I'd be willing to bet that these older riders on the Crescent have been riding it since they were kids - and continue because it's what they do. They are train-savvy repeat customers. You can tell by what they pack. When they are gone, so are the Crescent's patrons...unless the train becomes more useful.
BaltACD oltmannd Overall, it looks like the "old (69%), educated (58%) lady (71%) express". Avg age is 58! This train will be completely useless in 20 years. It's only mostly useless now. So you are intimating that the 'young' people that won't use it today, won't age in twenty years and have the same reasons for using it as the 'old' people today have. The 'old' people of today are the 'Boomers' who have been the most 'road obsessed' of generations, subsequent generations have had more of a 'green' leaning and take more readily to public forms of transportation.
oltmannd Overall, it looks like the "old (69%), educated (58%) lady (71%) express". Avg age is 58! This train will be completely useless in 20 years. It's only mostly useless now.
Overall, it looks like the "old (69%), educated (58%) lady (71%) express".
Avg age is 58! This train will be completely useless in 20 years. It's only mostly useless now.
So you are intimating that the 'young' people that won't use it today, won't age in twenty years and have the same reasons for using it as the 'old' people today have. The 'old' people of today are the 'Boomers' who have been the most 'road obsessed' of generations, subsequent generations have had more of a 'green' leaning and take more readily to public forms of transportation.
No, you have it right. Young people will ride useful trains - perhaps more so than Boomers. I'd be willing to bet that these older riders on the Crescent have been riding it since they were kids - and continue because it's what they do. They are train-savvy repeat customers. You can tell by what they pack. When they are gone, so are the Crescent's patrons...unless the train becomes more useful.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
oltmannd John WRRoads may not be the total cause of accidents but poorly planned roads can sure contribute to accidents. And transportation planner can show you different roads have different accident rates and yet the same group of drivers use both kinds of roads. And yes, drivers contribute to accidents too. And rain, snow and ice and darkness and dusk and a host of other things. Few things in this world have a single cause. Drivers cause all accidents not related to failure of the road, road systems or vehicle. There are contributing factors for sure, but the driver is supposed to adjust for those.
John WRRoads may not be the total cause of accidents but poorly planned roads can sure contribute to accidents. And transportation planner can show you different roads have different accident rates and yet the same group of drivers use both kinds of roads. And yes, drivers contribute to accidents too. And rain, snow and ice and darkness and dusk and a host of other things. Few things in this world have a single cause.
Drivers cause all accidents not related to failure of the road, road systems or vehicle. There are contributing factors for sure, but the driver is supposed to adjust for those.
Absolutely. I wish the news media could come to terms with that fact.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
John WRCertainly some Interstates are valid. But where does validity end and boondoggle begin?
Standardized cost benefit analysis yields this answer.
Unless the goal is "social justice" and then providing Altoona and State College with an interstate highway might be justification enough.
John WRYou ask how I define "rational" for a rational transportation system. From Merriam Webster: "Having reason."
Do you think Robert Moses though he was being irrational? Was he alone? Can there be a difference of opinion with both sides being "rational"?
Don,
You ask for a definition of "need." But when roads are build there is never a problem, never an attempt to show need. Roads are just built and built and built with no thought of anything. Only with rail passenger transportation does the "need" and "define need" question comes up. And realistically, if someone wants to drive somewhere then there is a need for a road. If a million people want to take trains somewhere then there is no need.
I well know that the decision was to include interstates through cities that ripped their guts out and destroyed communities. Once the power brokers made the decision the people could do nothing about it. For example, with the Cross Bronx Espressway Robert Moses would evict everyone from the top floor of a building and start tearing it down with people living in it.
There is no win win for people pushed out of their homes. But no one cares about that. And where are the taxes Newark has lost to I 280? Or the taxes New London has lost to I 95? Or the taxes Providence has lost to I 195 and the second I 195?
Certainly some Interstates are valid. But where does validity end and boondoggle begin? Of vice versa? Whenever some unjustified road is built the money doesn't come back to us because we say "boondoggle."
Roads may not be the total cause of accidents but poorly planned roads can sure contribute to accidents. And transportation planner can show you different roads have different accident rates and yet the same group of drivers use both kinds of roads. And yes, drivers contribute to accidents too. And rain, snow and ice and darkness and dusk and a host of other things. Few things in this world have a single cause.
You ask how I define "rational" for a rational transportation system. From Merriam Webster: "Having reason."
But I hope you don't read all of this tonight. I'm done and going to bed. Have a good rest of the evening. John
John WRYou, I and the American people are paying an enormous amount for highways that we really do not need.
Define "need". We built them. People use them. We didn't need them when we built them any more than we needed the Camden and Amboy when it was built.
John WRJust to begin with the Interstate and Defense Highway System. This was supposed to connect cities, not to go through them.
Kind of. Check the history of the interstates at the gov't web site. There was a big rift over whether or not to include the urban routes. The decision was to include. Did it have unintended consequences? Sure. Everything does.
John WRBut we all still have to pay the taxes this land once generated and we do pay those taxes.
People can, and do, say that roads lead to economic development. So, net-net on taxes is a "win".
John WRA classic example is Rep. Bud Schuster's I-99 where we paid not only to build the highway but also to remedy the battery acid like runoff it caused.
Not a classic example. Just one of a few boondoggles (I-77 and 79 in WV come to mind). I don't think you can say the same thing about I-40, 70, 80, 85, 75, 81, and 95...
John WRAnd go to the newer areas and see the 6 lane local roads which are both expensive to build and maintain and because they encourage fast driving are responsible for a lot of accidents.
Roads cause accidents? What about the drivers? Highways cause more accidents because the induce speed? Really? They are built for the posted speed plus some. Left turns are what cause accidents the most.
John WRWhere you and I agree is that the country needs a rational transportation system. If roads are rational we should use them and if passenger rail is rational we should use it.
You have to define "rational". Otherwise, it's just a warm and fuzzy thing that allows subjective application and labeling of folks who don't see it your way. Lots of people think what we've been doing is perfectly rational - and they have lots of cherry-picked facts to prove their point. I'd use cost/benefit to define rational.
Aha! Visit family and friends is not considered "leisure". Only 11% business (and most of that is to/from Charlottesville, I'd bet.
oltmannd blue streak 1Only 15 - 29% of east coast trips were vacation or leisure. What were the rest? What else is there besides business? Does "vacation or leisure" mean the train ride itself was the vacation/liesure activity or was transport to/from the activity?
blue streak 1Only 15 - 29% of east coast trips were vacation or leisure.
What were the rest? What else is there besides business?
Does "vacation or leisure" mean the train ride itself was the vacation/liesure activity or was transport to/from the activity?
OK DON: The following is a paste from the Crescent PRIIA. You can look for others in the same PRIIA report. Unfortunately the other reports do not have this break down. Note the number of female riders and the number of vacation/ leisure. Also not many business trips as you have previously noted.
Annual Ridership (FY 2010)
Coach Passengers ..................... 264,912
Sleeper Passengers...................... 33,776
Total............................................ 298,688
Average Travel Distance:
Coach Passengers ................... 526 miles
Sleeper Passengers.................. 755 miles
Total.......................................... 552 miles
Passenger Miles....................... 165
million
Age of Adult Passengers
(children not included)
18-34....................................................8%
35-54..................................................23%
55+.....................................................69%
Average Age....................................... 58
Gender
Female ..............................................71%
Male ..................................................29%
Employment
Employed.........................................49%
Retired..............................................41%
Education
College Graduates ......................... 58%
Household Income
Under $50K..................................... 35%
$50K - $100K ................................... 38%
$100K +............................................ 27%
Average ..........................................$76K
Travel Party
Traveling Alone .....................…57%
Group Travel ..............................43%
Traveling with Family..........38%
Traveling with Friends...........4%
Trip Purpose
Business........................................... 11%
Non Business .................................. 89%
Visit Family/Friends ................ 54%
Personal or Family Business...... 9%
Vacation (1+ Weeks)................. 13%
Leisure or Recreation................ 12%
School............................................ 1%
Other............................................. 1%
In
oltmanndSure, you paying? I don't want to.
One thing that must be understood, Don. You, I and the American people are paying an enormous amount for highways that we really do not need. Just to begin with the Interstate and Defense Highway System. This was supposed to connect cities, not to go through them. By sending the highways through the cities we have destroyed enormous amounts of tax paying property. But we all still have to pay the taxes this land once generated and we do pay those taxes. Then there are short sections of highways that are not needed but we pay or anyway. A classic example is Rep. Bud Schuster's I-99 where we paid not only to build the highway but also to remedy the battery acid like runoff it caused. And there are examples like this all over the country. Then look at state highways. Many were built in the 1930's to simply put people to work with no real transportation need. And go to the newer areas and see the 6 lane local roads which are both expensive to build and maintain and because they encourage fast driving are responsible for a lot of accidents.
Where you and I agree is that the country needs a rational transportation system. If roads are rational we should use them and if passenger rail is rational we should use it. But in a system that is so irrational how do you get it? That answer is so complicated that propably no one will ever agree on it. But it will keep a lot of transportation planners employed for years to come.
A surprising number of people get on and off the Crescent in Charlotte, even at that obscene hour. Kannapolis is small, and only 28 miles away. Anyone who needs to get on there can drive to Charlotte. As I said before, they are served by three trains a day in each direction, one set of which goes all the way to NYP, during normal hours.
Phoebe Vet There is no need for the Crescent to stop in Kannapolis at 2 and 3 AM.
Exactly! Why is it running through Charlotte in the dead of night? Somebody in Kannapolis might actually want to use the train to get to Alpharetta. Or, get back to school in Clemson.
In fact, there would be more of them than people who want to get from Meridian to Birmingham. So why does the train schedule favor the latter?
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.