While on the topic of baggage cars, I wonder if the reason that Amtrak is ordering 55 of them is the possible resurrection of express and mail business? I don't recall anyone considering that point.
oltmannd And, I would agree. Checked baggage just might not need baggage cars...particularly new ones. There are other ways to skin a cat.
And, I would agree. Checked baggage just might not need baggage cars...particularly new ones. There are other ways to skin a cat.
oltmannd Look what NC does for food service on their trains. It's not provided by Amtrak.
Look what NC does for food service on their trains. It's not provided by Amtrak.
oltmannd Perfect example: Similar sized dinner salads. From the CZ menu: Vegetarian Southwest Entrée Salad .................... $8.75Crisp romaine lettuce topped with cherry tomatoes,a sweet corn pepper-onion medley, feta cheese andguacamole. Served with choice of dressing and aroll. (595 cal.) (Available with a grilled chicken*** for an additional $3.00.) (110 cal.) From McDonalds: Premium Southwest Salad with Grilled Chicken Slices of tender chicken *** filet, mixed greens, fire-roasted corn, savory black beans, roasted tomatoes and poblano peppers. Sprinkled with cheddar and jack cheeses, chili-lime tortilla strips, a fresh-sliced lime wedge and served with Newman's Own Southwest Dressing. Amtrak price with chicken: $11.75 McDonalds price with grilled chicken: <$5.00 Amtrak loses money at $11.75. McDonalds at least breaks even. You don't have to give up food on the trains, just contract it out!!! (and I'm not suggesting McDonalds. How about Darden)
Perfect example:
Similar sized dinner salads.
From the CZ menu:
Vegetarian Southwest Entrée Salad .................... $8.75Crisp romaine lettuce topped with cherry tomatoes,a sweet corn pepper-onion medley, feta cheese andguacamole. Served with choice of dressing and aroll. (595 cal.) (Available with a grilled chicken*** for an additional $3.00.) (110 cal.)
From McDonalds:
Premium Southwest Salad with Grilled Chicken
Slices of tender chicken *** filet, mixed greens, fire-roasted corn, savory black beans, roasted tomatoes and poblano peppers. Sprinkled with cheddar and jack cheeses, chili-lime tortilla strips, a fresh-sliced lime wedge and served with Newman's Own Southwest Dressing.
Amtrak price with chicken: $11.75
McDonalds price with grilled chicken: <$5.00
Amtrak loses money at $11.75. McDonalds at least breaks even.
You don't have to give up food on the trains, just contract it out!!! (and I'm not suggesting McDonalds. How about Darden)
Contracted services are not always as inexpensive as you are supposing; especially when you are dealing with mobile services. I would also expect there to be a union fight if it were attempted.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Face it, Don. There are a lot of folks, and not just working at Amtrak, who resist any change or criticism, "Cuz that's the way we do things around here."
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
squiggleslashEliminating food service altogether will eliminate some of that extra $13 cost, but not all of it.
No. All of it. Commissaries go away. Food service attendants go away. Diners go away. About the only thing left would be the overhead jobs, that should go away, but Amtrak has a poor record of that.
squiggleslashGetting off topic, but the "$15 hamburgers" are a sign of what's wrong with outsider's views of how passenger railroading should work, not of what's wrong with Amtrak.
$15 is what it costs Amtrak to serve you the burger, not what they charge!
They LOSE MONEY, and lots of it, serving food to a captive crowd. They do it all themselves.
That, is the point.
The Angus Burger with potato chips is currently $9.75. The $15.00 hamburger comes from an OIG report cited by others earlier. Outsiders? Perhaps if Amtrak listened to outsiders it would be such a mess. Contract out the diner service to various bidders who actually run successful mass food businesses, rather than leaving it to amateurs.
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/27/239/California-Zephyr-Dining-Menu.pdf
Getting off topic, but the "$15 hamburgers" are a sign of what's wrong with outsider's views of how passenger railroading should work, not of what's wrong with Amtrak.
Amtrak's right. They provide food service on most trains. Unlike cars and buses, they have the space to provide the service on board without stopping the train. Buses and cars *have* to stop every few hours because people would go nuts if stuck in such cramped conditions (plus, y'know, fuel), and planes tend to provide 100% subsidized food and drink - they don't even pretend they're trying to claw back the costs.
And the hamburger isn't $15. It's closer to $2. It's $15 only in the same sense that the Chevy Volt is $50,000. Sunk costs. Costs of providing things most of which you'd have to provide anyway. Eliminating food service altogether will eliminate some of that extra $13 cost, but not all of it.
Should Amtrak not provide a food service? Only if they earn no revenue from tickets - because there'll be considerably fewer passengers for trains that require you bring everything you want to eat over the next few hours on-board yourself. Why do people think Amtrak provides food service? Did this start after 1971? Was there no food on passenger trains before 1971? Did the NYC or PC somehow run a food service that covered its costs from food prices?
One particularly dumb commercial I saw claimed that Amtrak's food service costs $30M a year in "subsidies". That's under a dollar a passenger. Now, if Amtrak did a one-time increase of $1 across the board for all tickets, would the complaints stop? Of course not, because it would have stopped already - that $1 is already built into the ticket price. Amtrak didn't just inherit rolling stock and train names from the old railroads, it inherited their fare structures too.
Baggage cars made sense in an era when travelers had very large Pullman bags (36") and trunks and there were many Redcaps, etc. Most travelers for the past 30 years travel much lighter, using smaller, lighter bags with wheels. Yet Amtrak places orders for equipment as though this were 1955. Baggage cars, like $15 hamburgers are simply a symbol of what is wrong with Amtrak. Like many institutions (not just governmental ones) it has failed to adapt to changing times. It may prove to be necessary and easier to work around Amtrak to achieve a modern passenger rail system because of its organizational stasis. I think Boardman is trying, but it is an almost impossible task to change Amtrak's antiquated corporate climate.
oltmannd schlimm Amtrak also carries company supplies in baggage cars. Surely there are better ways to do this. How does DB do it? Might be worth Amtrak's time to find out.
schlimm Amtrak also carries company supplies in baggage cars. Surely there are better ways to do this.
Amtrak also carries company supplies in baggage cars.
Surely there are better ways to do this.
How does DB do it? Might be worth Amtrak's time to find out.
Checked baggage is a major selling point, but surely there are other ways to do it than dedicated baggage cars. I use checked baggage on the Crescent when I have the opportunity.
My wife and I did a two week trip to Switzerland and Austria two years ago and did fine horsing the bags ourselves into storage areas. Just don't repeat the mistake the Austrians did on the Jet Trains and put the baggage racks at the center of the cars! Yoiks! Major traffic jams.
Dave Phelps
John WR oltmannd They only change them when: 1. The track goes away. 2. Congress tells them to. 3. Congress yells at them. But Congress does not tell Amtrak to change its ways much less yell at Amtrak. In fact, Congress has been funding Amtrak doing what is is doing now for over 40 years. Congress could appropriate money for Amtrak to institute daytime coach service on certain routes but it doesn't.
oltmannd They only change them when: 1. The track goes away. 2. Congress tells them to. 3. Congress yells at them.
They only change them when:
1. The track goes away.
2. Congress tells them to.
3. Congress yells at them.
But Congress does not tell Amtrak to change its ways much less yell at Amtrak. In fact, Congress has been funding Amtrak doing what is is doing now for over 40 years. Congress could appropriate money for Amtrak to institute daytime coach service on certain routes but it doesn't.
But, you are wrong! How do you think we got the Hilltopper, way back when? Or, the Pioneer? And, why do you think they went away? Is Mica not part of Congress? Doesn't he yell at them for running a "soviet style" RR?
What, exactly, do you think PRIAA 2008 was? It was Congress yelling at them to fix/improve their service - something they should have been doing all along. It was about fixing existing routes.
And, again, I'm not talking about ADDING a daytime NY-ATL train, I'm talking about flipping the schedule on the EXISTING route and adding a stop where a million (really! not hyperbole...) people live within a 10 mile radius.
Amtrak can do this ALL BY THEMSELVES. But, they won't unless # 2 or #3 happen.
DeggestyBaggage cars? they are used by passengers where they are in service.
I think you mean "checked baggage service? It is used by passengers...."
blue streak 1Since the single level trains are going to get bag - dorms on the single level sleeper routes only the Carolinian & Palmetto will need new bag cars.
If a baggage dorm has enough baggage space for the overnight trains, why wouldn't a combine have enough space on the the Carolinian & Palmetto? Let maximize the revenue space! It reduces costs and increases revenue - a "win-win".
rcdrye Things to consider: Amtrak also carries company supplies in baggage cars. Surely there are better ways to do this. Congress is also involved - the requirement that Amtrak carry guns in checked baggage service (and maybe pets - there's a bill for that pending) had some provisions that made it difficult to eliminate checked baggage service. So what about Acela service? No baggage cars there. You need an 85' car to 'check your guns at the door, pardner"? The Baggage-Coach combine on the Superliner does do the same duty as a combine would on a single level train. On many superliner trains a B-C is in the consist but used as an ordinary coach. My observation is that having the baggage car in the same place on the train every day reduces station dwell time. having baggage in the car you are riding reduces dwell time far more. Dorm space is a contract requirement for some employees. It took several years after the delivery of the Sup II transition sleepers before the extra superliner roomettes were available for revenue service - it required a contract change. Change the entire procedure. The sleeping car attendants ride in one space on the car(s) they are responsible for. Dining car workers get off after meall times are concluded, new ones board (with food) in the early morning.
Things to consider:
Congress is also involved - the requirement that Amtrak carry guns in checked baggage service (and maybe pets - there's a bill for that pending) had some provisions that made it difficult to eliminate checked baggage service.
So what about Acela service? No baggage cars there. You need an 85' car to 'check your guns at the door, pardner"?
The Baggage-Coach combine on the Superliner does do the same duty as a combine would on a single level train. On many superliner trains a B-C is in the consist but used as an ordinary coach. My observation is that having the baggage car in the same place on the train every day reduces station dwell time.
having baggage in the car you are riding reduces dwell time far more.
Dorm space is a contract requirement for some employees. It took several years after the delivery of the Sup II transition sleepers before the extra superliner roomettes were available for revenue service - it required a contract change.
Change the entire procedure. The sleeping car attendants ride in one space on the car(s) they are responsible for. Dining car workers get off after meall times are concluded, new ones board (with food) in the early morning.
rcdrye Things to consider: The heritage baggage cars are very well worn, and parts are hard to come by - and even a high level of maintenance can't change that. A recent trip on the Lake Shore lost several hours to a fractured brake rotor on a 52-year old converted coach - would have been a lot more if it hadn't happened in the middle of Cleveland where mechanical department employees and an NS switch crew were available. The amount of baggage transferred from the damaged car (from New York) to the other bggage car (from Boston) was quite large. Even with checked baggage service many travellers carry large amounts of luggage on board.
The heritage baggage cars are very well worn, and parts are hard to come by - and even a high level of maintenance can't change that. A recent trip on the Lake Shore lost several hours to a fractured brake rotor on a 52-year old converted coach - would have been a lot more if it hadn't happened in the middle of Cleveland where mechanical department employees and an NS switch crew were available. The amount of baggage transferred from the damaged car (from New York) to the other bggage car (from Boston) was quite large. Even with checked baggage service many travellers carry large amounts of luggage on board.
If we have to have them, why not convert Amfleet to baggage service and buy new coaches? The way it is now, the baggage will get the ride in the new car and the passengers will get the 30 year old equipment. Smart?
rcdryeThe Baggage-Coach combine on the Superliner does do the same duty as a combine would on a single level train. On many superliner trains a B-C is in the consist but used as an ordinary coach. My observation is that having the baggage car in the same place on the train every day reduces station dwell time.
Even worse! They have combines and don't use them! Instead, they add a car to every train. Worse yet, it's cars that cost a lot of time and money to keep running.
rcdryeDorm space is a contract requirement for some employees. It took several years after the delivery of the Sup II transition sleepers before the extra superliner roomettes were available for revenue service - it required a contract change.
Contracts are not etched in stone. Amtrak needs to "talk turkey" in the next round of talks. Unfortunately, there's nothing in it for Amtrak to do it.. In fact, it's "job security" for Amtrak mgt not to do it.
Why not rotate car attendants/food service staff off with T&E folk? Better yet, lets try not to run overnight train service.
oltmannd schlimm3. Amtrak should have done a study looking at those questions before ordering 50 new baggage cars ."
schlimm3. Amtrak should have done a study looking at those questions before ordering 50 new baggage cars ."
Don't you think that Amtrak could have found 35 - 40 +++ 80 ft Heritage baggage cars that would have not been too expensive to upgrade & operate on the superliner trains ? They could then cannabilize the others for parts ? That way maybe only 15 new baggage cars would be needed.
probably some of the heritage cars including dinners may be suffering for both known and unknown metal fatigue. ultra sound testing can be expensive.
Since the single level trains are going to get bag - dorms on the single level sleeper routes only the Carolinian & Palmetto will need new bag cars. That would have provided 35 new coaches to operate on the single level LD trains. Average of 1.4 extra coaches per train set.
Using the Heritage Baggage cars on duperliners can then wait until a bi-levl order of new coaches including bag - coaches is ordered to replace the superliner heritage baggages.
Wife and I are planning a 2 - 1/2 month tour of the country starting labor day and definitely will need to check the extra so we only have to each carry a 15 pound bag onto the trains.
schlimm3. Amtrak should have done a study looking at those questions before ordering 50 new baggage cars rather than doing so because "the boss says."
"Well of course we need new baggage cars! The old ones are worn out and slow!"
...psst. DB doesn't have baggage cars.
"....zzzzzzz * Huh?"
1. Just how heavily used are the baggage cars? Are those 60-85' cars actually filled with passengers' baggage?
2. Having to have someone open a baggage car at all stops en route to load and unload bags would seem to increase dwell time at intermediate stops a great deal. Compare that with dwell times of 2-3 minutes on DB.
3. Amtrak should have done a study looking at those questions before ordering 50 new baggage cars rather than doing so because "the boss says."
I sure hope that Thge LASL gets it's speed increased. Likewise all LD trains which use the NEC for any of their disance. It just makes sense to do so.
Granted, my wife and I were not the typical long distance passengers; when we took a trip, it usually was for about a month; which meant that we had to carry several changes of clothing, even when we planned to stop at hotels which had coin laundry facilities (and one in Victoria, B.C. did not charge us to use the hotel's public laundry facilties) Our usual assortment of baggage included one large suitcase which would not fit into a bedroom and two smaller bags which would.
We had no problem when riding in a Superliner--but Viewliners are a different story. Since the old 10-6 cars had a space at the end of car which held large suitcases, I thought that the Viewliners did--until the first time that we boarded one, in New Orleans. The conductor told us that the large suitcases would have to be checked (we had a bedroom, but tjere wa not enough room for all of our baggage--and took care of the process himself. Since then, when we traveled in a Viewliner we checked the large suitcase ahead of time..
Last year, traveling by myself, I needed two small suitcases and I managed to find room for them both when traveling in a roomette, but checked one through from New Orleans to here on my return home--and it arrived as I did.
Two or three times, I made use of the checked baggage policy to store the large suitcase at an intermediate stop when we were going past it and returning the next day. For instance, we were going from Salem, Ore., to Los Angeles and back up to San Jose after spending a night in Los Angeles.(my wife enjoyed the view of the ocean above Los Angeles), so I checked the big suitcase to San Jose, and picked it up when we detrained in San Jose the day after it arrived.
Baggage cars? they are used by passengers where they are in service.
Johnny
So far we have three different examples (sam1 in Australia, Don's ideas and my observations in Germany and Italy) of how to handle luggage efficiently without having separate baggage cars. And the sleeper attendants on (European) CNL night trains use only one space in each sleeper car. Dining car crews should be handled as Don suggests, eliminating the need for "Dormitory" cars.
The Texas Eagle does not have baggage cars; it carries the checked baggage in coach/baggage cars. The Eagle is running with three coaches; one of them is a coach/baggage car, which means the lower level seats have been replaced by space for checked baggage. I believe the City of New Orleans has the same arrangement.
The Country Link trains in Australia, at least the XPTs that run between Melbourne and Sydney (one day train and one night train) do not have checked baggage. Passengers store their baggage in racks at the end of the carriages or in the overhead luggage racks. Mobility impaired passengers can get help with their baggage from station and train personnel.
oltmannd Kevin C. SmithI doubt that the reason for buying baggage cars was simply because "we always had them". Checked baggage is a tremendous help to passengers-not just the ones checking but the ones stuck behind someone trying to carry on a lot of luggage. Who said checked baggage has to go in a baggage car? There are lots of ways to do checked baggage. Amtrak is buying baggage cars to replace old baggage cars - because "we always had them".
Kevin C. SmithI doubt that the reason for buying baggage cars was simply because "we always had them". Checked baggage is a tremendous help to passengers-not just the ones checking but the ones stuck behind someone trying to carry on a lot of luggage.
Who said checked baggage has to go in a baggage car? There are lots of ways to do checked baggage. Amtrak is buying baggage cars to replace old baggage cars - because "we always had them".
Some alternatives to consider: Space in existing cars at end or underneath. Convert out of service Amfleet. Combines. ...just for starters.
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