Sometimes a person can get an idea of plans from unlikely sources. AMTRAK has a problem with the design of the Miami Intermodal center ( MIC ).
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/05/24/report-wheels-come-off-the-track-for-new-train-station-construction/#respond>
ATK says the Silver Meteor is a total of 1065 feet in length. The normal consist is 2 P-42s, 1 Baggage, 4 coaches, a lounge, 1 dinner, & 2 Sleepers. The locos are ~ 60 ft in length and the pass cars ~85'4". That makes a 9 car consist of approximately 888ft. Subtracting that from the 1065 ft listed in the above link leaves ~~ 177 ft that allows for 2 more cars on Meteor.
A consist of 2 locos, 1 - bag dorm, 3 sleepers, diner, lounge, 5 coaches would be a possible lineup.
The article says one track for Amtrak but often both Meteor, & star arrive on each other's signals. What are they to do about that ?
Comments ? ? ?
FDOT has since returned to the drawing board. Among them Filer pointed out, “We looked a tunnel option that would take the roadway under the crossing. We looked at an overpass option which would take the roadway over Metrorail." ... “The cheapest option is where we are just taking track three and extending it to the south,” Filer said.
No, the cheapest alternative is to ensure that Miami passengers are in the cars that 'fit' the platform. Or have them walk ... what is it, half a car length more than they would have otherwise to detrain?
And if you "extend the 'headhouse'" to take at least one of the P32s... why does that have to be strictly grade-separated from pedestrian traffic 100% of the time? Even if you provided flip-up barriers and had staff on hand to corral befuddled snowbirds, it would have to be cheaper... and as he indicates, this would be the "40-60' of buffer space" most of the time... which neatly allows accommodation of the overlength without necessarily putting a locomotive in the pedestrian space ...
Meanwhile, sure, 25th St. would be blocked for a while at... a couple of times a day? Put signs on it indicating when the wait times would be expected, if necessary. Or special detour signals that light up when the train is blocking the street. That's a lot cheaper than an over/underpass, and more palatable than closing the street entirely.
I am leaving out the reasons why a satellite platform across the street for the 'overflow' passengers would be unthinkable. Surely there are safe ways to get even the elderly across a street a few minutes a day. Even if you chose to build a passenger bridge over or under the street, with elevators at either end, it would have to be cheaper than moving the whole road...
BTW: I think I see two tracks in the plan (presumably shared with regional trains) -- so very little problem accommodating two LD trains simultaneously, one accessed through the right doors, the other through the left...
I must be missing something, but what is it?
Overmod:
Good points.
I haven't driven that area for about 5 years so the constuction and new traffic paterns are unknown. 25th st used to be used as a cut off to go from LaJune to 36 st. There were not that many business in that area so maybe buying them out. More importantly is limiting any Amtrak train to the possible 11 cars.
Either use your predestrian gates that the Miami SAL station used or just close 25th st. Since the LaJune rd flyover of 36st is in place 25th is not needed for the access to 36st.
Another thought is what happens in the future if the trains become much longer. I read in train orders that a current Meteor was at 11 cars yesterday.. Very likely that if passenger demand continues to increase cars to a maximun of 18 cars ? Certaiinly Amtrak does not want the expense of an extra section(s)
OvermodNo, the cheapest alternative is to ensure that Miami passengers are in the cars that 'fit' the platform. Or have them walk ... what is it, half a car length more than they would have otherwise to detrain?
Technically you're right, but the entire point of that station is that it's supposed to be a single, flagship, transportation hub for Miami. If it isn't really suitable for long distance trains from the get-go then it's a failure, even if you can argue that long distance trains can kinda sorta use it, but in a way that means sub-optimal boarding and complaints from local residents about their roads being blocked for 30 minutes at a time.
If I were Amtrak, and you were the Miami Central station building head honcho, my thought wouldn't be "Yeah, OK, we'll put up with it and block the street and have everyone board through the back of the train", it'd probably be to talk to the FEC about using their shiny new passenger station as soon as it's ready. But I'm not Amtrak, and Amtrak may decide to "put up with it" under those circumstances.
I prefer the option of just fixing the station though.
blue streak 1 Sometimes a person can get an idea of plans from unlikely sources. AMTRAK has a problem with the design of the Miami Intermodal center ( MIC ). http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/05/24/report-wheels-come-off-the-track-for-new-train-station-construction/#respond> ATK says the Silver Meteor is a total of 1065 feet in length. The normal consist is 2 P-42s, 1 Baggage, 4 coaches, a lounge, 1 dinner, & 2 Sleepers. The locos are ~ 60 ft in length and the pass cars ~85'4". That makes a 9 car consist of approximately 888ft. Subtracting that from the 1065 ft listed in the above link leaves ~~ 177 ft that allows for 2 more cars on Meteor. A consist of 2 locos, 1 - bag dorm, 3 sleepers, diner, lounge, 5 coaches would be a possible lineup. The article says one track for Amtrak but often both Meteor, & star arrive on each other's signals. What are they to do about that ? Comments ? ? ?
This shows Amtrak has no plans beyond the status-quo - plus or minus a sleeper or two. If I were the King of Amtrak, I think I'd try one, big NEC to FL overnight train on the Meteor's schedule and then chop the Star up into day trains. One serving the Carolinas to the Northeast and one serving intrastate FL. ...for starters.
That the Star and Meteor run at the same time of day shows that Amtrak has not attempted to optimize schedules for intrastate travel.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
"This shows Amtrak has no plans beyond the status-quo - plus or minus a sleeper or two."
The same attitude was shown when Amtrak decided not to challenge UP's cost estimate of $700 million to allow the Texas Eagle to run daily from San Antonio (SA) to LAX.
Amtrak could have cancelled the three day a week Sunset Limited and run the Eagle as a through train on the same three day a week schedule. And it could have implemented a SA to New Orleans day train to connect with the Eagle, again on a three day a week schedule. Instead it opted to continue the current arrangement, other than to adjust the schedule of the Eagle and Limited to reduce the dwell time in SA.
To protect against a late running eastbound Limited, Amtrak parks a sleeper and coach in SA. I don't know how many times it has been used, but my guess is not often. For a company that is supposedly short of equipment, this does not appear to be a good outcome.
If Amtrak must be in the long distance train (a mistake), it should strive to achieve the best outcome possible. Not likely to happen for a large bureaucracy that has a monopoly on intercity passenger rail.
After 2 weeks of riding a variety of trains in Germany, Austria and Italy, including one night train with sleeping cars, one observation jumps out: no (zero) baggage cars. Period. Many travelers, even the elderly, have large bags, but find dedicated space to stow on the car they are riding with no problems.
Continuing to purchase 50 new baggage cars b/c we have always had them (so did Europe in the past) is another example of the out-of-date and wasteful decisions by Amtrak's "thinkers." They should have bought more revenue-producing cars, which apparently are in shortage, or none.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
oltmanndIf I were the King of Amtrak, I think I'd try one, big NEC to FL overnight train on the Meteor's schedule and then chop the Star up into day trains. One serving the Carolinas to the Northeast and one serving intrastate FL. ...for starters.
+1.
It's currently two, very slow (less than 50mph average), trains that go almost exactly the same routes, in a not terribly useful way. I think it's currently hampered by:
One of the reasons our terrible governor cancelled FL HSR was the point that there already was a train between Tampa and Orlando. He's technically right - the Meteor makes that trip once a day, but it's once a day, it's useless, few Tampa residents will ever even consider it a way to get to Orlando and vice-versa. Thankfully the FEC is stepping in. Maybe between FEC/AAF and Sunrail, Amtrak might start reconsidering how it serves Florida & access to Florida.
schlimm After 2 weeks of riding a variety of trains in Germany, Austria and Italy, including one night train with sleeping cars, one observation jumps out: no (zero) baggage cars. Period. Many travelers, even the elderly, have large bags, but find dedicated space to stow on the car they are riding with no problems. Continuing to purchase 50 new baggage cars b/c we have always had them (so did Europe in the past) is another example of the out-of-date and wasteful decisions by Amtrak's "thinkers." They should have bought more revenue-producing cars, which apparently are in shortage, or none.
Stunner.
Here's how I envision it went down:
Mid level Mechanical, Operating and Marketing all sitting on the equipment purchasing committee.
Question: "What's our biggest need for equipment?"
Mechanical: "Old diners and baggage cars are driving us nuts. We can hardly keep them in service. We have to scrounge and make parts every week."
Operating Dept: "Those 60' shorty baggage cars cause us all kinds of scheduling problems on the NEC. Trains with them can't keep in the flow, particularly north of Trenton. We can never count on Mechanical to keep the 85' ones on the NEC LD trains."
Mech: "That because we can't keep them running. We never know which one's going to fail when. You are lucky you have any baggage cars at all."
Marketing: "We are really tight on sleeper space on during the summer on all our trains. New coaches would be nice, but don't sell out the coach seats as often as the sleepers"
WIthout a lot of thought, it becomes obvious that the intersection of these three "needs" is new baggage and dining cars, plus crew dorm/baggage cars so that revenue sleeper space is freed up. Never does the question of what should we really be doing pop up. Why? That's a question for folk much higher up the food chain. It is likely they would take a consensus view from down below and forward it on.
If you are a "train running" company, then you only bother yourself with things related to "running trains". "Our trains have baggage cars. The baggage cars are worn out. We need new baggage cars." It's that simple.
Why does this train go here or there? Why now vs. then? Why stop here vs. there?
What? Because that's how our trains run.
With the schedule of the Silver Star, Amtrak is maintaining service between the Northeast and Tampa and day service between Tampa and Miami. That the Star backs the 30 miles or so from Lakeland to Tampa (this is what the time shown in the public timetable tells me) adds time--is there no longer a wye near the station in Tampa? Each road did have a wye there. Amtrak does provide a service that the Seaboard did not--one seat daytime service between Tampa and Miami (SAL had "parlor buses" between Tampa and West Lake Wales, connecting with the Silver Meteor.)
Johnny
oltmannd Why does this train go here or there? Why now vs. then? Why stop here vs. there? What? Because that's how our trains run.
Superb, with the possible change of the answer to, "Because that's how and where our trains ran when we started 43 years ago."
schlimm oltmannd Why does this train go here or there? Why now vs. then? Why stop here vs. there? What? Because that's how our trains run. Superb, with the possible change of the answer to, "Because that's how and where our trains ran when we started 43 years ago."
They only change them when:
1. The track goes away.
2. Congress tells them to.
3. Congress yells at them.
oltmannd They only change them when: 1. The track goes away. 2. Congress tells them to. 3. Congress yells at them.
But Congress does not tell Amtrak to change its ways much less yell at Amtrak. In fact, Congress has been funding Amtrak doing what is is doing now for over 40 years. Congress could appropriate money for Amtrak to institute daytime coach service on certain routes but it doesn't.
When members of Congress criticize Amtrak they don't criticize it for not being more efficient; the criticize it for existing at all. And perhaps Congress should decide to do away with Amtrak. But until it does we will have to get along with Amtrak as Congress funds it.
I doubt that the reason for buying baggage cars was simply because "we always had them". Checked baggage is a tremendous help to passengers-not just the ones checking but the ones stuck behind someone trying to carry on a lot of luggage. (I have been both the person waiting and the person causing the wait. Neither one is pleasant.). Baggage cars are among Amtrak's oldest equipment and almost certainly a disproportionate maintenence expense. Yes, passenger accomodations are where the revenue originates but proper "back of house" equipment halps to provide the services that fill the cars and, if badly done, can soak up too much of the revenue.
Sorry, but I have witnessed for many years how thousands of passengers, the young and old, many with large bags get along just fine on the many trains of German Railways. Perhaps the fact that they found simple ways of providing accessible storage spaces to stow luggage on the passenger cars helps, along with having every car door open at stops. 30-40 years ago, they decided baggage cars were unnecessary if changes were made. There is simply no good reason why we cannot follow suit except being stuck in doing stuff because that's the way we've always done it.
Kevin C. Smith I doubt that the reason for buying baggage cars was simply because "we always had them". Checked baggage is a tremendous help to passengers-not just the ones checking
I doubt that the reason for buying baggage cars was simply because "we always had them". Checked baggage is a tremendous help to passengers-not just the ones checking
Kevin: -- There are several other benefits for the new Baggage - Dorms
1. 1 B-D car takes place for 1-1/2 cars. Replace a baggage car and release the revenue sleeper space ( about 1/2 of spaces in sleeper car ).
2. The present old baggage cars are an eclectic mixture. Almost none are alike. two large groups are the 60 ft cars that have a top speed of 90 MPH but some are further restricted according to some sorces. The others are the standard 82 ft that are nominally limited to 110 MPH but some less. Some are rebuilt Heritage coaches of various pedigrees. Availability and repair pushes up operating costs.
3. These various speed restrictions has caused Amtrak to schedule all their LD traains at the slowest-allowed speed. That may be one reason why some LD trains make up time on the NEC and another same train differrent days, same conditions do not ?
4. As an aside the various Heritage diners may have the same restrictions but I have never seen that information.
5. Once the new cars are all on scheduled east coast trains we may see a schedule speed up there ?. The NYP - Albany Lakeshore may also have a speed up when that track section gets the rebuilt segments up to 110 MPH ?
6. Baggage speeds outside the NEC are not a factor at present but maybe in the future for the Eagle ?
Kevin C. SmithI doubt that the reason for buying baggage cars was simply because "we always had them". Checked baggage is a tremendous help to passengers-not just the ones checking but the ones stuck behind someone trying to carry on a lot of luggage.
Who said checked baggage has to go in a baggage car? There are lots of ways to do checked baggage. Amtrak is buying baggage cars to replace old baggage cars - because "we always had them".
oltmannd Kevin C. SmithI doubt that the reason for buying baggage cars was simply because "we always had them". Checked baggage is a tremendous help to passengers-not just the ones checking but the ones stuck behind someone trying to carry on a lot of luggage. Who said checked baggage has to go in a baggage car? There are lots of ways to do checked baggage. Amtrak is buying baggage cars to replace old baggage cars - because "we always had them".
Some alternatives to consider: Space in existing cars at end or underneath. Convert out of service Amfleet. Combines. ...just for starters.
The Texas Eagle does not have baggage cars; it carries the checked baggage in coach/baggage cars. The Eagle is running with three coaches; one of them is a coach/baggage car, which means the lower level seats have been replaced by space for checked baggage. I believe the City of New Orleans has the same arrangement.
The Country Link trains in Australia, at least the XPTs that run between Melbourne and Sydney (one day train and one night train) do not have checked baggage. Passengers store their baggage in racks at the end of the carriages or in the overhead luggage racks. Mobility impaired passengers can get help with their baggage from station and train personnel.
So far we have three different examples (sam1 in Australia, Don's ideas and my observations in Germany and Italy) of how to handle luggage efficiently without having separate baggage cars. And the sleeper attendants on (European) CNL night trains use only one space in each sleeper car. Dining car crews should be handled as Don suggests, eliminating the need for "Dormitory" cars.
Granted, my wife and I were not the typical long distance passengers; when we took a trip, it usually was for about a month; which meant that we had to carry several changes of clothing, even when we planned to stop at hotels which had coin laundry facilities (and one in Victoria, B.C. did not charge us to use the hotel's public laundry facilties) Our usual assortment of baggage included one large suitcase which would not fit into a bedroom and two smaller bags which would.
We had no problem when riding in a Superliner--but Viewliners are a different story. Since the old 10-6 cars had a space at the end of car which held large suitcases, I thought that the Viewliners did--until the first time that we boarded one, in New Orleans. The conductor told us that the large suitcases would have to be checked (we had a bedroom, but tjere wa not enough room for all of our baggage--and took care of the process himself. Since then, when we traveled in a Viewliner we checked the large suitcase ahead of time..
Last year, traveling by myself, I needed two small suitcases and I managed to find room for them both when traveling in a roomette, but checked one through from New Orleans to here on my return home--and it arrived as I did.
Two or three times, I made use of the checked baggage policy to store the large suitcase at an intermediate stop when we were going past it and returning the next day. For instance, we were going from Salem, Ore., to Los Angeles and back up to San Jose after spending a night in Los Angeles.(my wife enjoyed the view of the ocean above Los Angeles), so I checked the big suitcase to San Jose, and picked it up when we detrained in San Jose the day after it arrived.
Baggage cars? they are used by passengers where they are in service.
I sure hope that Thge LASL gets it's speed increased. Likewise all LD trains which use the NEC for any of their disance. It just makes sense to do so.
1. Just how heavily used are the baggage cars? Are those 60-85' cars actually filled with passengers' baggage?
2. Having to have someone open a baggage car at all stops en route to load and unload bags would seem to increase dwell time at intermediate stops a great deal. Compare that with dwell times of 2-3 minutes on DB.
3. Amtrak should have done a study looking at those questions before ordering 50 new baggage cars rather than doing so because "the boss says."
schlimm3. Amtrak should have done a study looking at those questions before ordering 50 new baggage cars rather than doing so because "the boss says."
"Well of course we need new baggage cars! The old ones are worn out and slow!"
...psst. DB doesn't have baggage cars.
"....zzzzzzz * Huh?"
oltmannd schlimm3. Amtrak should have done a study looking at those questions before ordering 50 new baggage cars ."
schlimm3. Amtrak should have done a study looking at those questions before ordering 50 new baggage cars ."
Don't you think that Amtrak could have found 35 - 40 +++ 80 ft Heritage baggage cars that would have not been too expensive to upgrade & operate on the superliner trains ? They could then cannabilize the others for parts ? That way maybe only 15 new baggage cars would be needed.
probably some of the heritage cars including dinners may be suffering for both known and unknown metal fatigue. ultra sound testing can be expensive.
Since the single level trains are going to get bag - dorms on the single level sleeper routes only the Carolinian & Palmetto will need new bag cars. That would have provided 35 new coaches to operate on the single level LD trains. Average of 1.4 extra coaches per train set.
Using the Heritage Baggage cars on duperliners can then wait until a bi-levl order of new coaches including bag - coaches is ordered to replace the superliner heritage baggages.
Wife and I are planning a 2 - 1/2 month tour of the country starting labor day and definitely will need to check the extra so we only have to each carry a 15 pound bag onto the trains.
Things to consider:
The heritage baggage cars are very well worn, and parts are hard to come by - and even a high level of maintenance can't change that. A recent trip on the Lake Shore lost several hours to a fractured brake rotor on a 52-year old converted coach - would have been a lot more if it hadn't happened in the middle of Cleveland where mechanical department employees and an NS switch crew were available. The amount of baggage transferred from the damaged car (from New York) to the other bggage car (from Boston) was quite large. Even with checked baggage service many travellers carry large amounts of luggage on board.
Amtrak also carries company supplies in baggage cars.
Congress is also involved - the requirement that Amtrak carry guns in checked baggage service (and maybe pets - there's a bill for that pending) had some provisions that made it difficult to eliminate checked baggage service.
The Baggage-Coach combine on the Superliner does do the same duty as a combine would on a single level train. On many superliner trains a B-C is in the consist but used as an ordinary coach. My observation is that having the baggage car in the same place on the train every day reduces station dwell time.
Dorm space is a contract requirement for some employees. It took several years after the delivery of the Sup II transition sleepers before the extra superliner roomettes were available for revenue service - it required a contract change.
rcdryeThe Baggage-Coach combine on the Superliner does do the same duty as a combine would on a single level train. On many superliner trains a B-C is in the consist but used as an ordinary coach. My observation is that having the baggage car in the same place on the train every day reduces station dwell time.
Even worse! They have combines and don't use them! Instead, they add a car to every train. Worse yet, it's cars that cost a lot of time and money to keep running.
rcdryeDorm space is a contract requirement for some employees. It took several years after the delivery of the Sup II transition sleepers before the extra superliner roomettes were available for revenue service - it required a contract change.
Contracts are not etched in stone. Amtrak needs to "talk turkey" in the next round of talks. Unfortunately, there's nothing in it for Amtrak to do it.. In fact, it's "job security" for Amtrak mgt not to do it.
Why not rotate car attendants/food service staff off with T&E folk? Better yet, lets try not to run overnight train service.
rcdrye Things to consider: The heritage baggage cars are very well worn, and parts are hard to come by - and even a high level of maintenance can't change that. A recent trip on the Lake Shore lost several hours to a fractured brake rotor on a 52-year old converted coach - would have been a lot more if it hadn't happened in the middle of Cleveland where mechanical department employees and an NS switch crew were available. The amount of baggage transferred from the damaged car (from New York) to the other bggage car (from Boston) was quite large. Even with checked baggage service many travellers carry large amounts of luggage on board.
If we have to have them, why not convert Amfleet to baggage service and buy new coaches? The way it is now, the baggage will get the ride in the new car and the passengers will get the 30 year old equipment. Smart?
rcdrye Things to consider: Amtrak also carries company supplies in baggage cars. Surely there are better ways to do this. Congress is also involved - the requirement that Amtrak carry guns in checked baggage service (and maybe pets - there's a bill for that pending) had some provisions that made it difficult to eliminate checked baggage service. So what about Acela service? No baggage cars there. You need an 85' car to 'check your guns at the door, pardner"? The Baggage-Coach combine on the Superliner does do the same duty as a combine would on a single level train. On many superliner trains a B-C is in the consist but used as an ordinary coach. My observation is that having the baggage car in the same place on the train every day reduces station dwell time. having baggage in the car you are riding reduces dwell time far more. Dorm space is a contract requirement for some employees. It took several years after the delivery of the Sup II transition sleepers before the extra superliner roomettes were available for revenue service - it required a contract change. Change the entire procedure. The sleeping car attendants ride in one space on the car(s) they are responsible for. Dining car workers get off after meall times are concluded, new ones board (with food) in the early morning.
Surely there are better ways to do this.
So what about Acela service? No baggage cars there. You need an 85' car to 'check your guns at the door, pardner"?
having baggage in the car you are riding reduces dwell time far more.
Change the entire procedure. The sleeping car attendants ride in one space on the car(s) they are responsible for. Dining car workers get off after meall times are concluded, new ones board (with food) in the early morning.
blue streak 1Since the single level trains are going to get bag - dorms on the single level sleeper routes only the Carolinian & Palmetto will need new bag cars.
If a baggage dorm has enough baggage space for the overnight trains, why wouldn't a combine have enough space on the the Carolinian & Palmetto? Let maximize the revenue space! It reduces costs and increases revenue - a "win-win".
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