CSSHEGEWISCHStops at Route 128 have been on the schedule for a very long time.
You are absolutely right. Route 128 is the nation's first ring road around a city. And the station at Route 128 is the first suburban station located so it could have a large parking lot. Both have been very successful.
In 1953 Then New Haven President Buck Dumaine built a large parking lot and platforms by the tracks at Route 128. There was a small building where tickets were sold but no actual station building. It was intended to accommodate commuters and today it is still primarily a commuter station. Several years ago a station with waiting rooms was built there. In the 50's it was common for commuters to ride all New Haven trains so all trains stopped there. When Amtrak took over Amtrak maintained the tradition but it is unlikely that today anyone would commute between Route 128 and Boston on an Amtrak train as MBTA fares are much lower.
I appreciate the fact that people who live south of Boston and want to ride Amtrak will find Route 128 more convenient than South Station. However, it seems strange that Acela would stop at what in fact is a commuter station.
Similar to Chicago. Some inner and outer suburbs had stops in and outbound. On the old CNW (UP) west line (Galena), Oak Park, Geneva and sometimes Wheaton. On the CNW north line (Milwaukee div) Evanston, Winnetka and Waukegan. On the CB&Q (now BNSF) Aurora. Etc.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
And going backwards, Schlimm, select suburban stops allowed for businessmen to not have to go to the office. Notice, too, the stops were at the far end of or at strategic stations within, the commuter districts. Thus, for instance at Dover, NJ, Suffern, NY, New Brunswick, or Trenton', Harmon and Peekskill, NY, Stamford and new Haven Ct, and the likes of Worchester, MA were all stops to collect those who rode that far on connecting local trains that made all stops on schedules just ahead of the limited. Also, of course, to pick up US mail similarly collected. Again, providing and giving service and coordinating services to pay for each other and not just running trains.
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Henry is very astute in his observation. Having one or even two quick stops in the suburbs makes connections a whole lot easier for many potential travelers. Isn't that an important part what a transportation service means and should be?
henry6 I am sure Amtrak or any train operator would not make station stops if there wasn't a passenger need or load on or off at that station that makes cents and dollars. Few people are in many center cities but in the suburbs up to 50 miles from center city...thus Rt128 out of Boston makes a lot of sense as does Stamford, CT., Poughkeepsie, NY; Newark, Metro Park, Trenton, NJ; etc. Remember, we should not be talking running trains but providing service...and service is what the people will pay to use.
I am sure Amtrak or any train operator would not make station stops if there wasn't a passenger need or load on or off at that station that makes cents and dollars. Few people are in many center cities but in the suburbs up to 50 miles from center city...thus Rt128 out of Boston makes a lot of sense as does Stamford, CT., Poughkeepsie, NY; Newark, Metro Park, Trenton, NJ; etc. Remember, we should not be talking running trains but providing service...and service is what the people will pay to use.
Henry is very correct about service. These stops provide a service for persons that would otherwise fly to New York or south to PHL. A person there does not have to fight traffic back thru Boston city to get to the airport.
Stops at Route 128 have been on the schedule for a very long time. Stops at a suburban location such as Route 128 can be an advantage now that many businesses have relocated sizable offices to outlying areas.
Mario_vI've been doing some 'technical schedules' and the best possible with Acelas between NYP & BOS vary between 3hrs 15 (for a 'super express' stopping only in Providence, Route 128 and Back Bay)
I hope you are successful, Mario. I still can't see why good service demands a stop at Route 128 and especially a stop at Back Bay. You can walk between South Station and Back Bay Station.
John WR Mario_vThe Acelas Schedules have way too much padding, I believe 3hrs 20 or 3hrs 25 are possible I'm sure you are right, Mario. Also more time could be saved by omitting stops at Back Bay (1 mile from South Station) and Route 128 (11 miles from South Station. And Stamford is a commuter stop. Take those away and Acela Boston to New York could be cut to 3 hours. When there is a new catenary between New York and New Haven even more time could be saves. Finally, the Merchants Limited had to stop 20 minutes in New Haven to change engines. Those engine changes were done away with in the 90's. John
Mario_vThe Acelas Schedules have way too much padding, I believe 3hrs 20 or 3hrs 25 are possible
I'm sure you are right, Mario. Also more time could be saved by omitting stops at Back Bay (1 mile from South Station) and Route 128 (11 miles from South Station. And Stamford is a commuter stop. Take those away and Acela Boston to New York could be cut to 3 hours. When there is a new catenary between New York and New Haven even more time could be saves.
Finally, the Merchants Limited had to stop 20 minutes in New Haven to change engines. Those engine changes were done away with in the 90's.
John
I've been doing some 'technical schedules' and the best possible with Acelas between NYP & BOS vary between 3hrs 15 (for a 'super express' stopping only in Providence, Route 128 and Back Bay) and 3hrs 25 (for a 'regular' train stoping in Stamford, New Haven, Ptovidence, Route 128 and Back Bay). In these I've padded it a little bit, but using the 'European Method for crack trains' (3 extra minutes per each 60 miles of track traveled). Can't do any better, because the whole line has a bunch of speed restrictions (only in Amtrak territory there are 69 due to curves), and NYP - New Haven is rather slow (typical speed 60 or 70 Mph, and a really old, almost 100 year old catenary). Cutting some stops will not take much time out, maybe 5 minutes less, and would not provide a good service as Amtrak pretends
blue streak 1So we know that there has been schedule improvements !
You have given a great example, Streak. When Amtrak first took over it replaced all of the tracks using concrete ties and welded rails. No doubt that itself improved time schedules. Also, in the days of the Pennsylvania and New Haven the tracks were really rough. Walking through the train would test your balancing skills. And drinking a cup of coffee was a feat in itself. I used to wonder at how the waiters could be so sure footed but they were. They were amazing.
Well, the traditional term used is "padding," which most of us equate with Amtrak's term. This is not the same as padding an expense account, but is akin to putting padding on a chair so the sitter will be more comfortable. Amtrak's term may be more easily understood by those who are not familiar with the long-time use of "padding."
Some specific examples of the use of padding, from a trip that I took last month between Salt Lake City and Memphis:
We were 39 minutes late at Princeton (104.2 miles from Chicago; I failed to note the time we left Naperville) and on time into Chicago (scheduled time 2:27). I did not note the time we left Newbern, Tenn., for I was fast asleep; we arrived in Memphis 15 minutes early (and had to find breakfast in Memphis). Returning, we were 10 minutes late out of Homewood (28 miles from Union Station) and arrived in Chicago 13 minutes early (scheduled time 1:16) This section takes a long time because the train has to back into Union Station. We were 1:31 late out of Fort Morgan the next morning (78 miles east of Denver), and 54 minutes late into Denver (scheduled time 2:10; the train is turned and backed into the station). We gained and lost time here and there, and left Provo (44 miles from Salt Lake City) 25 minutes late and arrived in Salt Lake City 15 minutes early (scheduled time 1:39; there is extremely slow running for several miles before ariving at the station).
Incidentally, we had to stop in Kankakee, even though there was no one on or off because we arrived early.
Johnny
oltmannd The analog for an Acela would be the Senator, which did make Stamford and Bridgeport - probably for the same reason - thru traffic west of NYP. http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track3/senator195504.html
The analog for an Acela would be the Senator, which did make Stamford and Bridgeport - probably for the same reason - thru traffic west of NYP.
http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track3/senator195504.html
oltmanndAmtrak calls all of this "recovery time".
Based on experience we can predict there will be certain delays because of encountering freight trains and similar things although we cannot identify individual sources of each delay. It seems to me that doing this is not only reasonable; it is something we would expect from competent managers.
But adding in a hunk of time for no particular reason is different. That I what I would call "padding."
Mario_v oltmannd John WR Mario_vThe Acelas Schedules have way too much padding, I believe 3hrs 20 or 3hrs 25 are possible I'm sure you are right, Mario. Also more time could be saved by omitting stops at Back Bay (1 mile from South Station) and Route 128 (11 miles from South Station. And Stamford is a commuter stop. Take those away and Acela Boston to New York could be cut to 3 hours. When there is a new catenary between New York and New Haven even more time could be saves. Finally, the Merchants Limited had to stop 20 minutes in New Haven to change engines. Those engine changes were done away with in the 90's. John You can find the padding in Amtrak NEC schedules pretty easily. They don't build much slack into the running times EXCEPT in the last leg to destination or intermediate station that has "recovery dwell" (New York, in the case of Acelas). Just compare the running time in the leg in each direction and you'll see the padding. To/from Stamford and NYP 52 vs 40 minutes, so padding is 12 minutes. It's maybe the 'american way' of padding schedules. Here in Europe, padding time is distributed thruout the schedule, and 'crak trains' are differentiated from others. Normally, this extra times are added per each 62 miles of travel (100 Km) and the most important trains get to have some extra 3 minutes, and all other 4 to 5, we call it 'regularity margin' and it's pretty useful if one gets some restrictive signals in the way. There are some RRs that also ad some extra minutes in the last leg of the trip, one of them being the Spanish national railways, in ordre to add some 'robustness' to the schedule and get some extra garantees of on time arrival. As for Amtrak schedules, I've been trying to apply this 'regularity margin' principle, and the final result is not very different from what's in effect
oltmannd John WR Mario_vThe Acelas Schedules have way too much padding, I believe 3hrs 20 or 3hrs 25 are possible I'm sure you are right, Mario. Also more time could be saved by omitting stops at Back Bay (1 mile from South Station) and Route 128 (11 miles from South Station. And Stamford is a commuter stop. Take those away and Acela Boston to New York could be cut to 3 hours. When there is a new catenary between New York and New Haven even more time could be saves. Finally, the Merchants Limited had to stop 20 minutes in New Haven to change engines. Those engine changes were done away with in the 90's. John You can find the padding in Amtrak NEC schedules pretty easily. They don't build much slack into the running times EXCEPT in the last leg to destination or intermediate station that has "recovery dwell" (New York, in the case of Acelas). Just compare the running time in the leg in each direction and you'll see the padding. To/from Stamford and NYP 52 vs 40 minutes, so padding is 12 minutes.
You can find the padding in Amtrak NEC schedules pretty easily. They don't build much slack into the running times EXCEPT in the last leg to destination or intermediate station that has "recovery dwell" (New York, in the case of Acelas). Just compare the running time in the leg in each direction and you'll see the padding.
To/from Stamford and NYP 52 vs 40 minutes, so padding is 12 minutes.
It's maybe the 'american way' of padding schedules. Here in Europe, padding time is distributed thruout the schedule, and 'crak trains' are differentiated from others. Normally, this extra times are added per each 62 miles of travel (100 Km) and the most important trains get to have some extra 3 minutes, and all other 4 to 5, we call it 'regularity margin' and it's pretty useful if one gets some restrictive signals in the way. There are some RRs that also ad some extra minutes in the last leg of the trip, one of them being the Spanish national railways, in ordre to add some 'robustness' to the schedule and get some extra garantees of on time arrival.
As for Amtrak schedules, I've been trying to apply this 'regularity margin' principle, and the final result is not very different from what's in effect
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
John WR henry6Tradition. NH would run GCT or NYP with stop at Stamford. You are right, Henry. Many New Haven trains did stop at Stamford. And they also ran locals that were really local. For example, the Beacon Hill which stopped at East Greenwich and Hillsgrove RI. I could walk to Hillsgrove and catch the Beacon Hill. But the Merchants Limited was their crack express. It did not stop at Stamford. And the Acela is supposed to be a crack express too. John
henry6Tradition. NH would run GCT or NYP with stop at Stamford.
You are right, Henry. Many New Haven trains did stop at Stamford. And they also ran locals that were really local. For example, the Beacon Hill which stopped at East Greenwich and Hillsgrove RI. I could walk to Hillsgrove and catch the Beacon Hill.
But the Merchants Limited was their crack express. It did not stop at Stamford. And the Acela is supposed to be a crack express too.
I suspect there are quite few more folk living in western Connecticut exurbs now than in the heyday of the ML. Must be a fair number of folk going from there to Phila and DC. No reason for a two seat ride (or worse)
Also, the ML was a GCT train, not a through train to DC. The analog for an Acela would be the Senator, which did make Stamford and Bridgeport - probably for the same reason - thru traffic west of NYP.
My experience has been that even airline schedules have a bit of padding in them to allow for delays in pushing away from the gate, waiting for a runway slot, headwinds, etc.
Any SCHEDULE for anything, anywhere is padded to enhance the possibility of On Time completion.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Isn't admitting American railroads pad timetables and there are other ways America falls short of absolute perfection kind of, well, unAmerican?
Eastbound trains not stopping at Denville going via Morristown were scheduled at 5 minutes, with stop 6. Look especially at weekend westbounds today....mostly 14 minutes but some 16 minutes. Regular weekday schedules allow 7 to 10 minutes in either direction. I have not noticed that the track is longer than it was when I was growing up...but I do notice the speed limits are five to ten mph slower.
Henry,
I wonder what Shirley is doing these days. I assume she is still President of her own consulting company but she seems to have dropped out of sight.
I refuse to believe what you say about Denville to Dover. I deny it. Absolutely deny it. Denial is the way that I live.
henry6 Amtrak took over passenger services on day one without adjusting or dropping trains, it was whatever the participating roads were running at the time, Amtrak got. They started consolidating trains and routes, dropping duplicate routes, rearranging schedules, adapting to worn out equipment and breaking down trains. So of course day one was a big day. But subsequently schedules and number of trains were cut.
Amtrak took over passenger services on day one without adjusting or dropping trains, it was whatever the participating roads were running at the time, Amtrak got. They started consolidating trains and routes, dropping duplicate routes, rearranging schedules, adapting to worn out equipment and breaking down trains. So of course day one was a big day. But subsequently schedules and number of trains were cut.
Surely you jest....Shirley invented the pad on NJT...6 minutes Denville to Dover westbound is now carded at up to 20 minutes! And they stopped making pillows in Dover well over 7 decades ago!
Mario_vIt's maybe the 'american way' of padding schedules.
Padding of American Amtrak schedules? Surely you jest, Mario. The ancient countries of Europe such as your own may resort to the nefarious practice of padding schedules. But no American railroad would ever, ever do such a thing by even a second. Those who suggest it live in a world of self delusion.
henry6Amtrak took over passenger services on day one without adjusting or dropping trains, it was whatever the participating roads were running at the time, Amtrak got.
Tradition. NH would run GCT or NYP with stop at Stamford. Like PRR to Newark, DL&W to Newark, Erie to Passaic and Ridgewood, B&A to Back Bay, etc. The idea was to pick up or drop off passengers who rode to or from intervening stations. It was called "service".
I find it hard to understand why the Acela should stop at Stamford at all. Stamford is a commuter station.
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