Another mudslide on the BNSF from Everret - Seattle hit the last 3 cars of the Empire Builder Sunday. No injuries but last 3 cars ( dinner, 2- coaches ) knocked off rails. A picture that I cannot now find showed the Builder on the track closest to the hill side. There are 3 tracks shown on the picture. Why did BNSF not dispatch the passenger train on a track closer to the lee side ?? That was left had runnig as well. The slide did not cross over to the center or far side tracks. Maybe BSF trying to protect a freight train ?
blue streak 1 Another mudslide on the BNSF from Everret - Seattle hit the last 3 cars of the Empire Builder Sunday. No injuries but last 3 cars ( dinner, 2- coaches ) knocked off rails. A picture that I cannot now find showed the Builder on the track closest to the hill side. There are 3 tracks shown on the picture. Why did BNSF not dispatch the passenger train on a track closer to the lee side ?? That was left had runnig as well. The slide did not cross over to the center or far side tracks. Maybe BSF trying to protect a freight train ?
Dispatchers must lack the ESP needed to know when and where a mudslide is going to happen.
I'm sure PTC will address that, too.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Any time Streak wants to explain how BNSF can mitigate water and gravity problems that start off the R/W, I'm sure he will enlighten us. BNSF has spent a healthy chunk of change trying to monitor slide prone areas with strain gages, slide fences and monitor wells in alluvial deposits that litter that area of the country along with extra patrols during and after rains. (and then there is all of the $$ spent rebuilding cuts and fills)
Besides,what happens when the next slide prone area lands on the other side of the tracks before you get to the next crossover in that curvy, hilly country.
Dispatchers have enough to worry about (stuff that is happening) to forever worry about "what ifs". If you try to plan for every what if, then nothing will move at all.
My point is that there are 3 tracks in the area (probably 1 is a siding ? ) This has been a rainy winter / spring season. Why not dispatch a passenger train on the track furtherest from the hill side ? One can suspect that vibration from the EB passing might have caused the hill side to break loose since only the last 3 cars were hit by this slide..
The intermodal freight that was hit last month also running on the inside track was hit by a slide not the train running into a slide.
To infer that ESP IS INVOLVED IS not my thought. Keep all trains away from the slide face if possible. This area from Everette south has had over 50 slides in the past 16 months.
It may be time to clamp down on property owners above the tracks because those owners are certainly contributing to the slides.l
blue streak 1 My point is that there are 3 tracks in the area (probably 1 is a siding ? ) This has been a rainy winter / spring season. Why not dispatch a passenger train on the track furtherest from the hill side ? One can suspect that vibration from the EB passing might have caused the hill side to break loose since only the last 3 cars were hit by this slide.. The intermodal freight that was hit last month also running on the inside track was hit by a slide not the train running into a slide. To infer that ESP IS INVOLVED IS not my thought. Keep all trains away from the slide face if possible. This area from Everette south has had over 50 slides in the past 16 months. It may be time to clamp down on property owners above the tracks because those owners are certainly contributing to the slides.l
A Dispatchers job is to move traffic so as to maximize utilization of the companies track structure and minimize delays to trains. That job requires us of ALL track facilities. If one dispatches a territory based on 'what if' - nothing moves effectively. Nature has been a adversary of railroads since the laying of the First Stone of the Baltimore & Ohio RR, and it will continue to be a adversary until the end of railroads.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
mudchicken Any time Streak wants to explain how BNSF can mitigate water and gravity problems that start off the R/W, I'm sure he will enlighten us. BNSF has spent a healthy chunk of change trying to monitor slide prone areas with strain gages, slide fences and monitor wells in alluvial deposits that litter that area of the country along with extra patrols during and after rains. (and then there is all of the $$ spent rebuilding cuts and fills) Besides,what happens when the next slide prone area lands on the other side of the tracks before you get to the next crossover in that curvy, hilly country.
The geology between the Ballard Drawbridge and Everett, where all these slides are happening, and have happened since the line was built, is unique.
The hills are not alluvial deposits, they are unconsolidated glacial deposits, drumlins to be specific. The long axis of the drumlins are north/south with steep sides on the east and west. The line is located at the foot of the drumlins and about 20 feet above Puget Sound. There are drumlins to the east and Puget Sound to the west. Wonderful profile, dead flat, but the unconsolidated glacial debris is not stable.
Last week a similar slide under some homes on Whidby Island, about 50 miles away, made national news. Same story as the man who built his house on sand, plus these folks had the ocean eating away at the bottom of the slope.
Mac
the dispatcher who works that job, very likely has never seen that stretch of railroad. Or if they have, they worked it five years before the railroad decided it would be worthwhile to send them on a road trip. It is amazing the things that once you have actually seen the railroad seem perfectly obvious, but never occur to you (or to the persone who trained you) from Fort Worth. I have been dispatching for 15 years and next week am taking my 2nd railroad sponsored road trip to actually put eyes on my own railroad.
I think it used to be that dispatchers would do a cab ride at least once a year...if not required, they often did anyway.....Also used to be that dispatchers usually came up through the ranks of operators, towermen, even yardmasters and train crews.
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henry6 I think it used to be that dispatchers would do a cab ride at least once a year...if not required, they often did anyway.....Also used to be that dispatchers usually came up through the ranks of operators, towermen, even yardmasters and train crews.
Part of the problem is that dispatchers now have thousands of miles of territory that they run. So it takes many road days to see everything. Plus when you have dispatchers off the street - how much are they really going to learn from a few cab rides? They'll learn something, yeah, but riding every inch of a line won't help them much, IMO.
As far as ranks, not many operators or towermen left, and not many train crews or yardmasters want the job. Been there, done that, got the shirt.
That was my point, Zug....virtual reality is not reality. Yet RR company managers and investors will take someone off the street, give him/her a computer, then trust them with billions and billions of dollars of equipment, property, lives, and customer's property and expect it to work within the margin of profit.
henry6 That was my point, Zug....virtual reality is not reality. Yet RR company managers and investors will take someone off the street, give him/her a computer, then trust them with billions and billions of dollars of equipment, property, lives, and customer's property and expect it to work within the margin of profit.
Being from the ranks doesn't mean you will be any better. I believe it helps, but it is a whole 'nother skillset, and a while 'nother way of thinking.
But one from the ranks knows more about the railroad, the job, the people, than a computer does. He has to know when to hide something in the back pocket to put on the table to make it work. "John is an engineer who can run and make this work" or "John doesn't move and run so won't make this work". Or that this or that locomotive or set can't do what the timetable/rules say, etc. No, I like the idea that the guy telling my train crew where to go and how and been there that way. I love computers for what they can do, but it is more important that I know what everything can do and can't do...so I can override or adjust the computer.
MUD; My point is this. This area is very slide prone during and after heavy rains.---Over 60 slides in the last 18 months. As such BNSF should have a dispatch policy whenever there are heavy rains there to dispatch trains on the outside track(s) especially passenger trains. As it is the policy not to allow passenger occupied trains for 48 hrs after any slide is a very wise one. The intermodal that was hit a couple monthsago was also on the inside track.
once a year would be great, unfortunately, you have scheduling issues. transportation issues, especially if you are talking Everett, WA from Fort Worth. And a cab ride may not be your best bet, you may learn more riding track with a track inspector, or riding on a local, most of the time everyone wants to jump on a hotshot. I am leaving Wednesday, hoping to ride some track, spend some time with the 3rd trick yardmaster (my opposite number) and meet as many btrain crews as possible.
Henry your point is well taken, unfortunately most of those jobs; operator station agent, are gone now thanks to technology, dispatcher was once a job you worked up to, now it is entry level. I actually heard one student in the schoolhouse ask, "what is a siding?" A few still work up from MOW, not many from train service though, there used to be more. I think it is too political an environment, plus and hogger can earn close to 120k these days on my railroad, that is significantly more than I make as a dispatcher.
And requiring a different mindset is absolutely correct, I have actually said to one train crew on a particularly difficult night, "gee, I wish I only had one train to worry about for 12 hours..."
I know those jobs are gone. I rue the fact. In railroading and so many other businesses the training grounds have been bulldozed into oblivion and the quality of the work, the job, the career, the pride of workmanship and accomplishment, are gone. I can sit here at a computer and punch buttons, and depending on the program I have installed and the connections I have made, and a little luck, I could land a man on the moon, start or end a war, dive to the depths of of the ocean, put a train in a siding, conduct an orchestra, play a baseball game or hockey game or football game or solitaire but never know what I really did other than struck a few keys on the keyboard or clicked a mouse on a number or icon. That is train dispatching today....is it as good as it was? Technically it is great, magnificent, slick and quick. But complete and sure? Not so sure. Yeah, if you know how to do something, then the computer can be a help...I edit and mix sounds to produce radio commercials....I used to do it with tape and razor blade and white crayon in a slotted form...took hours and you only had one chance to do it right. Now, I can take a 10 minute interview, edit it down, mix with another voice and music and have a 60 second commercial in hours instead of days. I understand. But I know I couldn't do as well with the computer program if I hadn't first done it with tape, razors, white crayon, and painstaking cutting and taping. Same with dispatching. Flipping switches by moving a mouse or keying in data is ok...but if you've been there and know what you are really doing instead makes for a better job well done.
I thank my lucky stars for taking a job working for Sperry as a resume filler while I was waiting for my resume to wend its way through the process at BNSF after I retired from the Air Force, although it was only 8 months what I learned in the field still stands up today after 15 years dispatching
I could agree with you, Henry. In fact, I do agree with you, Henry. But you and I and others like us, well young people today are just not where we are and never will be. Our culture is over. I mean I went to my son's house to do a little painting project for him and his wife. I asked for some newspaper to put down to catch the drips. They didn't have any. They don't get a daily newspaper; they read the news on the internet. And that's just the beginning.
John
John, I know how you feel. Sometimes I think the world's rushing past me into future I can't see and it's ignoring me in the process.
And "Roger" to what Henry said earlier. I think the real troubles with America's businesses began when the grads of the MBA mills got fast -tracked right into mangement without coming up through the ranks and learning and understanding the businesses they were in.
Wayne
henry6 But one from the ranks knows more about the railroad, the job, the people, than a computer does. He has to know when to hide something in the back pocket to put on the table to make it work. "John is an engineer who can run and make this work" or "John doesn't move and run so won't make this work". Or that this or that locomotive or set can't do what the timetable/rules say, etc. No, I like the idea that the guy telling my train crew where to go and how and been there that way. I love computers for what they can do, but it is more important that I know what everything can do and can't do...so I can override or adjust the computer.
Computers are just tools - they are not the brains behind dispatching - unless the individual dispatcher is brainless and relinquishes what little intelligence he has to it by using the wrong 'automatic' functions at the wrong times for the wrong reasons. The computer is a tool, there are dispatchers that can make the tool work, and those who have less skills - just like any other profession that have individuals operating tools.
BaltACD Computers are just tools - they are not the brains behind dispatching - unless the individual dispatcher is brainless and relinquishes what little intelligence he has to it by using the wrong 'automatic' functions at the wrong times for the wrong reasons. The computer is a tool, there are dispatchers that can make the tool work, and those who have less skills - just like any other profession that have individuals operating tools.
With all this autorouting stuff coming out, they won't just stay tools for long. That's ok, dispatchers have enough other crap to do besides running trains, anyhow. They'll stay busy.
Based on what Mac said about the slide prone geology and the fact that the rail line is 20 feet above the Sound, putting the train on the outside track next to water could have been just as hazardous. The track next to the downslope is still in a slide zone, and may slide down into the Puget Sound. The ground closer to sea level is even more saturated, and the toe of the slope subject to erosion.
Firelock76I think the real troubles with America's businesses began when the grads of the MBA mills got fast -tracked right into mangement without coming up through the ranks and learning and understanding the businesses they were in.
Wayne,
I have a close friend who is in a part time MBA program set up for people working full time as he is. I asked him if calculus is either taught or required for the course as traditionally to get an MBA you need to have calculus. He said that it is not. And he said some of his class mates cannot multiply and divide per centages. Things are sure changing.
the computer does it for them OK until there is a computer bug and they have no way of knowing and start treating wrong results and correct.
John WR Firelock76I think the real troubles with America's businesses began when the grads of the MBA mills got fast -tracked right into mangement without coming up through the ranks and learning and understanding the businesses they were in. I have a close friend who is in a part time MBA program set up for people working full time as he is. I asked him if calculus is either taught or required for the course as traditionally to get an MBA you need to have calculus. He said that it is not....
I have a close friend who is in a part time MBA program set up for people working full time as he is. I asked him if calculus is either taught or required for the course as traditionally to get an MBA you need to have calculus. He said that it is not....
Perhaps someone will be so kind as to tell me how many old-line dispatchers were required to learn calculus, as by extension you're saying that "MBAs" with no practical experience don't get key parts of the traditional railroad experience, and then you use calculus to back up the idea that they're not learning key parts of relevant experience...
Same point really applies to adding and subtracting percentages (assuming you've already got the right magnitude for them) in your head. Is that a key dispatching skill?
What is wrong with the "MBA approach" is not the skill sets of the people coming in -- it's the willingness to acquire knowledge and wisdom in their chosen business before making decisions that affect or change it. We (arrogant Columbia people) don't much care for Leland Stanford Junior University MBAs, many of whom have acquired a reputation for thinking that because of where they went to school, they are obviously more knowledgeable than anyone else about any aspect of business. When they more than usually aren't.
[soapbox mode]One of my father's, and then one of my, best friends was a man who ran Morgan Stanley for a while back in the days it actually did what it was supposed to do, in a professional manner. He told me exactly what kind of people he wanted to recruit for new 'career-track' positions for grads... and the results would be as surprising to you as they were initially to me. But they didn't involve Stanford-type MBAs, and neither should mission-critical services that require non-algorithmic solutions. [/soapbox]
I believe that the Amtrak train had just stopped at the Everette Train Station, with the platform only on the east track, therefore the train had to be on the east track.
I know nothing about train dispatching and do not suggest that I have any knowledge of those skills.
However, I do think that anyone who is graduated by an American high school should be able to add, subtract, multiply and divide fractions.
I was great at math....
Ummm. Isn't x maybe about 12 according to Monte Python's theory? Maybe not exactly 12 but there abouts. If I had my calculator I could give you the exact answer.
And what is that cm stuff? I don't understand all this railroad language.
I thought it was 42. The answer is always 42.
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