Henry,
It's no secret that price competition is effective. Many people shop by price and by price alone. Certainly discount buses use this attribute of human nature.
But to do everything the cheapest way possible you have to cut some corners somewhere. You can cherry pick your route and ignore the needs of people who live in more out of the way places. You can avoid the cost of a handicapped accessible restroom and leave handicapped people to negotiate with the driver for a rest stop. And you can do your pick ups and drop offs along the road both when there is a lot of street live and also in the dead of night and not concern yourself with anyone's safety. All of these practices same money by passing problems and risks along to others including your passengers.
Certainly in the all over scheme of things bus travel has to be part of intercity travel. But perhaps we as a society make a mistake when we allow private bus companies to pass along these risks to innocent and unwary people.
Yes....you've got to consider the "level" of the traveler. Frugal, no frills, will put up with anything and everything. Not everybody will do it no matter how much they will save. Next up is the bus in general...did you know more people get sick riding buses than airplanes and even ships?....followed by the commuter coaches, intercity coach, parlor or extra fare cars, limousine, plane coach, plane first class, private jet. Driving private car not included because we are talking about purchasing publicly available purchased transportation. Some people do want certain luxuries or niceties when the travel and are willing to pay for it. Know your market, then sell your market. Don't put down the market below you or above you...it is there and it will generate its own income. Or not.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
MerrilyWeRollAlong As for intermediate stops, I do know one of the bus companies between ny and Philly does make one intermediate stop in Cherry Hill since there are a significant number of young adults who live in NYC and are from South Jersey.
I checked both the Mega Bus and Bolt website. Neither list Cherry Hill as a stopping point. However, you could go to Philadelphia and then get local transit to Cherry Hill.
Discount buses attract frugal travelers. That is fair enough. Frugal travelers who come to urban centers need to consider local buses, subways and trains and be willing to wait for them and use them. That is reasonable during rush hours and times when the urban centers are safe. However, discount buses do not bring you to a bus terminal where there are police and the area is safe. They just drop you off by the side of the road and go on. If you are lucky there is a more traditional bus or rail station close by where you can retreat and figure out your next step. If you are no so lucky your $1 fare can get you mugged.
John WR MerrilyWeRollAlongSo what is the logic in taking the train for a minimum of $24 if you can get to Philly (or Baltimore or Boston or Washington) for $1.00 on the bus? I checked Megabus New York to Philadelphia. It is cheaper than NJT plus SEPTA but I found no $1 fares. for Sunday, March 17 fares are $15 to $20 For April 17 fares run from $5 to $15 One problem I can see is that Megabus tends to serve big cities. Can you get Megabus from Elizabeth to Philadelphia? or New Brunswick to Phildadelphia? Or Trenton to Philadelphia? From Elizabeth and Trenton on Megabus you just can's get there from here. From New Brunswick it is possible; you take Megabus to New York and then change to Philadelphia.
MerrilyWeRollAlongSo what is the logic in taking the train for a minimum of $24 if you can get to Philly (or Baltimore or Boston or Washington) for $1.00 on the bus?
I checked Megabus New York to Philadelphia. It is cheaper than NJT plus SEPTA but I found no $1 fares.
for Sunday, March 17 fares are $15 to $20
For April 17 fares run from $5 to $15
One problem I can see is that Megabus tends to serve big cities. Can you get Megabus from Elizabeth to Philadelphia? or New Brunswick to Phildadelphia? Or Trenton to Philadelphia? From Elizabeth and Trenton on Megabus you just can's get there from here. From New Brunswick it is possible; you take Megabus to New York and then change to Philadelphia.
The $1 low rate is available to the first person who buys a ticket for a given bus trip. when the bus company releases a block of tickets for sale is when the $1 ticket is available. As for intermediate stops, I do know one of the bus companies between ny and Philly does make one intermediate stop in Cherry Hill since there are a significant number of young adults who live in NYC and are from South Jersey.
Overmod John WROne guy who didn't want to bother with it is Joe Biden. I just read an article which said that in the Senate he rode Acela between DC and Wilmington 7 or 8 thousand times. How many of these were after 8:00 <vbg> Wilmington: capital of the state he represented for so long Washington: logical 'other end' where he does the business. Alternative service that makes sense to use between these two points: NIL. Too long for a limousine, too short for a (suitably secure) flight. Helicopters from Andrews too flashy. I just wish he would remember his roots and GET SCRANTON-NY SERVICE PRIORITIZED. RME
John WROne guy who didn't want to bother with it is Joe Biden. I just read an article which said that in the Senate he rode Acela between DC and Wilmington 7 or 8 thousand times.
How many of these were after 8:00 <vbg>
Wilmington: capital of the state he represented for so long
Washington: logical 'other end' where he does the business.
Alternative service that makes sense to use between these two points: NIL. Too long for a limousine, too short for a (suitably secure) flight. Helicopters from Andrews too flashy.
I just wish he would remember his roots and GET SCRANTON-NY SERVICE PRIORITIZED.
RME
Once, long ago (mid 1980s?), I wound up taking a morning Metroliner from Wilmington to DC. (I think I was picking up a piece of test equipment from Amtrak). Coach was sold out, so I was allowed to upgrade to Metroclub that day. Wound up sitting right across from Joe Biden. I don't think Joe was in club for the same reason I was....
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Definitely a marketing survey is needed. Included would have to be all who currently use Amtrak, SEPTA and NJT trains, all who currently use the RiverLine-bus option or who use RiverLine-PATCO option; those who use buses, those who use car, those who use nothing because it is too complicated (cost or expense will be revealed later). The longest segment is across NJ but not necessarily the most ridership from there...and downtown to downtown may not be the core riders either...but that will depend on the type of service wanted, needed or proposed.
henry6Could SEPTA offer express Philadelphia to Trenton service--would that increase the number of people that use SEPTA-NJT or just increase the number of trains---would it take away from Amtrak?
Better still -- why not the same kind of 'joint operation' between NJT and SEPTA that currently exists on the Port Jervis line? I doubt Amtrak will care, and in fact should be overjoyed that some of the load is being taken up by the kind of 'state-subsidized' service that was mandated in 2008 (and that we have discussed half to death in connection with the Pennsylvanian).
Could there be or should there be return to the Clockers Market St-Suburban-30th ST to Trenton, Princeton, New Brunswick, NWR, Newark, NYP?
Personally, I have no hesitation in saying yes to this. (Is there no longer any point in stopping at North Philadelphia or Metropark/Iselin? And I would think a stop, even a short one, at Lautenberg/Secaucus would be in order for at least some of the trains...)
My chief concern with the situation as you describe it is that SEPTA would have considerable equipment utilization but with minimal actual convenience to anyone living in Pennsylvania unless (1) they go to Trenton in the first place, which wouldn't involve SEPTA at all), or (2) they go somewhere or connect through to something convenient to 30th St.
Conversely, if NJT picks up a proportionate share of the load, they now have multiple trains that are operating over on SEPTA a considerable portion of the time. This may be seen by NJ as a kind of unfunded mandate situation unless Pennsylvania kicks in a higher share than 'proportionate' of the subsidies involved.
I see nothing insurmountable in the applied politics here. And there is tremendous regional incentive for a 'faster' service comparable to the Clockers, although it would be sad if they couldn't manage under 90 minutes time with all the massive infrastructure improvements that have been made... ;-} If it were my call, I'd start the detailed studies tomorrow.
Our Ridewithmehenry group has discussed the idea of riding Acela between NYP or Newark and Philadelphia. Time wise it is about 10 to 15 minutes faster than several trains but only about 5 minutes faster than a limited stop Regional....Minimum fare for the ACELA is $97 and it goes up from there; no Sr or other discounts except weekends; seat price could be as high as $161 or more for peak hours and at boarding time. Regular Amtrak trains are less than half the Acela fare and allow for discounts any day. Our conclusion is simply that...."yeah, but you've got to get the ACELA experience, it might just be worth it." But that is a railfan's take on it. I am sure the businessman or others who have the money are glad to pay whatever fare for the luxuries of ACELA. Timing is less than 15 minutes across the Amtrak board, so those who don't need the luxuries and don't want to pay for them can easily accept the other trains. Those who are on tight budgets will take SEPTA to Trenton: they can board SEPTA trains anywhere in the system either heading to Trenton or to transfer to the Trenton trains at Philadelphia stations; or they could go to Camden and ride the River Line to Trenton accessed by PATCO accessed by SEPTA subway, trolley, and bus services (there is even a combined RiverLIne-SEPTA bus ticket!).
Two points I want to make: 1) there is a service available for need and willingness and ability to pay...and all are well used by all levels in this case (Philadelphia-Newark-New York). The marketers and providers have done their jobs rather well. Could there be more of this or that? Could SEPTA offer express Philadelphia to Trenton service--would that increase the number of people that use SEPTA-NJT or just increase the number of trains---would it take away from Amtrak? Could there be or should there be return to the Clockers Market St-Suburban-30th ST to Trenton, Princeton, New Brunswick, NWR, Newark, NYP? Population surveys and marketing and coordinated operations..i.e., dedicated regional railroad entity...have to be studied to see.
As for HSR...ACELA is great Boston-Providence-NYP-Philadelphia-Baltimore-D.C. for timing and level of service. But the in between points where less than ten minutes costs are high are questionable. It is the glamour of HSR, the speed, that gets our attention. But should it get our money? Too many people have stars in their eyes with HSR without understanding the cost for the actual time recovered. Again, regional planning and overlapping schedules may be more cost effective and attract more people to trains than a HSR that is too costly for many to ride and not worth the extra money for the few minutes saved on a ride of less than 100 miles. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of HSR...I just want it to be understood for what it is and how it will work; and understand how conventional trains and operations can work just as fast in many instances but also to work with HSR to make both viable.
Not to beat a dead horse, but If anyone thinks that it is illogical to pay $62 more for Acela service over Regional service, just imagine what the people who ride Bolt Bus and MegaBus think of the idiots who take either Amtrak or NJT/SEPTA between NY and Philly. Tickets for both bus companies start at $1 and averages about $8 one-way. So what is the logic in taking the train for a minimum of $24 if you can get to Philly (or Baltimore or Boston or Washington) for $1.00 on the bus?
To add insult to injury, most buses are scheduled to make the NY-PHI trip in 2 hours which bests the typical NJT/SEPTA running time.
I was thinking of Philly to NYP and not concerned with the precise time of evening, obviously, in response to the diversion from the original theme of this thread, which was::
And the answer is, the only HSR we have currently already "pays for itself" and subsidizes the Northeast Regional service.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
OvermodHow many of these were after 8:00
I don't know, Bob. He commuted to and from his work as a Senator.
Overmod just wish he would remember his roots and GET SCRANTON-NY SERVICE PRIORITIZED.
Are you talking about Amtrak service to Scranton?
John
schlimmMaking $100/hr. is hardly rare.
You are right, Schlimm. And if I made that kind of money I just might not want to bother with slower service. One guy who didn't want to bother with it is Joe Biden. I just read an article which said that in the Senate he rode Acela between DC and Wilmington 7 or 8 thousand times. The article called him "Amtrak Joe Biden."
daveklepperus the reputed extra comfort on Acela. But is it real? What about food service?
Dave,
That is one of those questions which, if you decided to ask it, the answer will be "no." And I would prefer to buy my own food at one of the really excellent bakeries or delis in New York Penn Station than get it on any train. But clearly there are people who make a different decision. A lot of people.
MerrilyWeRollAlongHonestly, in the end it boils down to how much do you value your time.
Roll Along,
I agree with you. And I don't mind rolling along for several more minutes. Both Northeast Regional trains and Acelas run throughout the day so if you want to be in, say, Philadelphia starting from New York you can arrange that with either train. So it is a question of each to his own taste and pocketbook.
OvermodCan someone explain to me the 'logic' behind paying an extra $62 to get to Philadelphia about 20 minutes faster at 9:30 at night?
Bob,
I'm a frugal traveler. I would ride the Northeast Regional train or even NJT plus SEPTA.
But clearly many people disagree with me. Acela is Amtrak's most popular service. A lot of people will pay the extra $62.
schlimmMaking $100/hr. is hardly rare. Additionally, many folks heading to NYP might want to make it in time to a Broadway show, a concert or an event in the Garden. Or perhaps they want to get home for dinner with family?
Give me the short list of Broadway shows and MSG events that happen in Philadelphia. Or weren't you reading it right.
Show me anyone who would rather have dinner after 9:30 ... no,wait, it's going to be later than that when anyone actually gets to the dinner table ... instead of dinner at whatever time the earlier train gets there. Or, in either case, would keep his "family" up that late to have dinner at that hour.
Makes even less sense now.
Yes, but making it in between the time you have to leave for Penn Station to catch a 7:40 and the time you have to leave to catch an 8:20 -- which is the only measure of marginal income that actually applies to this situation -- is likely to be far more rare.
Especially if you are in a business where you choose to live in Philadelphia. And absolutely, positively,need to be in the office late but not all that late.
Sorry, I'm from New York and spent considerable time in Philadelphia, and I just don't see the point.
(But then again, I'm not striving to get the absolute maximum number of Amtrak favor points per month...that's about the only activity for which the example would make sense.)
Making $100/hr. is hardly rare. Additionally, many folks heading to NYP might want to make it in time to a Broadway show, a concert or an event in the Garden. Or perhaps they want to get home for dinner with family?
MerrilyWeRollAlong Overmod John WR I just checked for this Friday, March 15. Acela at 4, 5 or 6 pm is $161. But if you can wait until 8:20 it is only $97. With an 8:20 departure you get to Philadelphia about 9:30 pm. Can someone explain to me the 'logic' behind paying an extra $62 to get to Philadelphia about 20 minutes faster at 9:30 at night? Actually your question assumes that both an Acela and a Regional train leave NY at the same time which never happens. Looking over the schedule, the next train to leave after the 8:20p Acela Express #2173 is Regional #187 at 9:05p which gets into Philly at 10:27pm. The last Regional train to Philly prior to the 8:20pm Acela departure was Regional #175 at 7:40pm. So in response to your question, with the aforementioned information, the logic of paying $62 more would be to get home almost an hour earlier (not faster) at 9:28pm on Acela instead of at 10:27pm on the Regional. Your question also assumes that "home" is at or near 30th Street Station. If you have to connect to SEPTA Regional Rail, Subway/Trolley or bus service, then saving $62 by taking the later Regional train could result in longer connecting times to SEPTA service (depending on what line/service you need) which in turn potentially means getting home even later than the Acela would have. Honestly, in the end it boils down to how much do you value your time.
Overmod John WR I just checked for this Friday, March 15. Acela at 4, 5 or 6 pm is $161. But if you can wait until 8:20 it is only $97. With an 8:20 departure you get to Philadelphia about 9:30 pm. Can someone explain to me the 'logic' behind paying an extra $62 to get to Philadelphia about 20 minutes faster at 9:30 at night?
John WR I just checked for this Friday, March 15. Acela at 4, 5 or 6 pm is $161. But if you can wait until 8:20 it is only $97. With an 8:20 departure you get to Philadelphia about 9:30 pm.
I just checked for this Friday, March 15. Acela at 4, 5 or 6 pm is $161. But if you can wait until 8:20 it is only $97. With an 8:20 departure you get to Philadelphia about 9:30 pm.
Can someone explain to me the 'logic' behind paying an extra $62 to get to Philadelphia about 20 minutes faster at 9:30 at night?
Actually your question assumes that both an Acela and a Regional train leave NY at the same time which never happens. Looking over the schedule, the next train to leave after the 8:20p Acela Express #2173 is Regional #187 at 9:05p which gets into Philly at 10:27pm. The last Regional train to Philly prior to the 8:20pm Acela departure was Regional #175 at 7:40pm. So in response to your question, with the aforementioned information, the logic of paying $62 more would be to get home almost an hour earlier (not faster) at 9:28pm on Acela instead of at 10:27pm on the Regional.
Your question also assumes that "home" is at or near 30th Street Station. If you have to connect to SEPTA Regional Rail, Subway/Trolley or bus service, then saving $62 by taking the later Regional train could result in longer connecting times to SEPTA service (depending on what line/service you need) which in turn potentially means getting home even later than the Acela would have.
Honestly, in the end it boils down to how much do you value your time.
Let me rephrase it a little, then:
The issue is not whether your connections go through, it's why you're spending the extra $62 to get somewhere late in the evening.
You can save $62 by arranging to leave on the 40-minutes-earlier train. Which unless I'm badly mistaken would get you 'home' at the same time you'd have done it via Acela.
Highly unlikely (to me) that the difference in departure time means you have the opportunity to make at least $93 per hour (to pay the agio) and still value being home however many minutes late that evening you are.
Between New York and Washington, or Boston and Washington, the higher speed makes some sense. But not really between NY and Philadelphia, for the money. Except in such tortured circumstances, with such tortured assumptions, that most people's priorities would not fit.
YMMV, of course... but I doubt most people would disagree with the situation as I see it.
daveklepper plus the reputed extra comfort on Acela. But is it real? What about food service?
plus the reputed extra comfort on Acela. But is it real? What about food service?
Between Phila and NY, you hardly have time to go get a cup of coffee!
This is part three of my New York to Philadelphia trilogy.
Acela takes 73 minutes.
Northeast regional takes 97 minutes which is 24 minutes more.
NJT fastest trains are about 72 minutes NY to Trenton. SEPTA fastest trains are about 53 minutes Trenton to Philadelphia. Total 125 minutes but there is a little time long in changing so I estimate best time is 135 minutes. This is 62 minutes more than Acela and 38 minutes more than NE Regional.
As a matter of practical reality if you are going to use NJT and SEPTA occasionally you probably go to the station and take the next train. This may well be a local and add 45 minutes or so to your trip That can bring your trip from New York to Philadelphia up to 3 hours. Bring a book. If you want a cup of coffee and a roll or bagel I recommend Zaros at Newark Penn Station. Expensive for that kind of food but worth it.
I just did some price comparisons for the lowest one way adult fare between New York and Philadelphia.
Adding the fares in my head NJT plus SEPTA comes to $24.25. Of course there is no need to buy tickets in advance. No WiFi. NJT trains (and I suspect SEPTA trains) have a few electrical outlets that appear to be intended for car cleaners. However, it might be possible to plug into them. I don't know if the conductor would allow it, though. I wonder if anyone has any experience.
Amtrak's lowest fare on a Northeast Regional Train same trip is $36. The fare is available for trains 2 weeks from today. If you shop around I'm sure you could get a closer date, especially if you are flexible in scheduling.
So yes, with more cars we can certainly expect fares to stay closer to the base. A win win situation.
Can't predict right now how half hour frequency will affect ridership...demand is high for what they have now, but it might soften enough that even the 97 buck base from NYP to Phila could lower or at least stay in place right up to the "all aboard".
henry6But if Acela starts half hourly service from NYP to D.C., then there might be a chance of lowering of fares and more use.
Why do you think Amtrak would lower Acela fares? Right now from NYP to DC Acela runs full. Actually, I'm too frugal to ride Acela but when I was commuting from Newark to Trenton as I waited for my train an Acela would pull up across the platform and there were always people waiting to get on.
As you have pointed out if you schedule in advance you can get very reasonable fares on Northeast Regional trains. I find a month in advance is early enough for a good fare.
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