From: http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2013/02/24/in-france-a-truly-low-cost-high-speed-rail-option/
France has new super-low train fares for their HSR routes called OuiGo.
"OuiGo brings the aviation low-cost concept to high-speed railways. In exchange for a cheap ticket, customers will be charged for a second carry-on bag; they’ll pay more for the use of an electrical outlet; they’ll be unable to change their tickets without a fee. There will be fewer conductors — only four per train, who will also be tasked with some maintenance. Double-decker trains will seat 1,268 passengers, not because seats have been compressed (unlike the airlines, thank god), but rather because the first class and dining car spaces have been replaced by economy-class areas. Trains themselves will be scheduled to run more often than typical TGVs, traveling about 80,000 kilometers per month, double the normal rate."
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Don,
That is an idea even I can agree with. In fact Amtrak could do the French one better and simply add a second class bilevel car to its existing trains. New Jersey Transit uses very comfortable bilevels now in there commuter service. This is 4 across seating but the seats do not recline. No outlet; no wi fi. Baggage goes on an overhead rack or under your seat. No services except ticket collect. The cars are bright enough to read easily. Seats do not recline. They would be more than acceptable for a New York to Boston trip.
Amtrak charges $49 New York to Boston on April 17 (Northeast Regional; not Acela).
Bolt Bus charges $8 to $13 for the same trip (depending on time of travel).
If Amtrak charged $24.50 for a second class (bilevel) seat New York to Boston I bet plenty of people would upgrade from bus to train. And they could do this on any train line they run simply by adding one or more bilevel cars.
I believe both Mega Bus and Bolt Bus offer outlets and WiFi on their buses so why would a bus rider switch to a more slightly more expense double decker rail car with less ammenities? I would think the installation and the subsequent cost of electricity for the outlets is negligible considering the amount of eletricity being used by the AEM-7 to pull the train.
Overall it's not a bad idea for Amtrak but the train mentioned in the article is operating over an extensive passenger rail network that was built and funded by the French government. Amtrak can barely get enough funding to maintain let alone upgrade the Northeast Corridor or expand beyond it.
Of course this is all very hypothetical since there is no reason to believe Amtrak will run double decker cars at reduced fares.
Of course WiFi and electric outlets would be a good idea. But no one gets that on New Jersey Transit now and yet there Northeast Corridor trains run quite full. The real reason is that a train, even a commuter train has bigger and more comfortable seats than a bus has. (Except, of course, the older Comet cars with 5 across seating).
And yes, Amtrak would have to come up with money to purchase the cars. But certainly cars must be purchased from time to time anyway. I don't expect it will happen but I don't see that it is impossible either.
PS.
There was a time when Amtrak did something similar to what the French Railways are doing.
The Pennsylvania Railroad ran and Amtrak continued up to a few years ago Clockers. Clockers were trains added to the schedule so there would be hourly service between New York and Philadelphia. The Pennsy allowed commuters with commuter tickets to ride their clockers. Amtrak continued that tradition. For several months I rode an Amtrak Clocker from Princeton Junction to Newark. The Amtrak abandoned its Clocker service.
To give a fare comparison, today NJT charges $400 a month for a commuter ticket between Trenton and New York. Amtrak also sells a commuter ticket for $1077 between the two stations. I don't know how many people commute on Amtrak within New Jersey but I suspect almost all prefer NJT with its lower fare.
However, it seems to me honoring NJT tickets within New Jersey was a good idea for Amtrak. After all, they were running trains with empty seats and the extra fares they collected, while a lot lower than their own, were all pure profit.
John WRHowever, it seems to me honoring NJT tickets within New Jersey was a good idea for Amtrak. After all, they were running trains with empty seats and the extra fares they collected, while a lot lower than their own, were all pure profit.
Depends significantly on how fast Amtrak got REIMBURSED by NJT for the tickets that were honored. Wanna bet it took a while? And involved a great deal of whining and bureaucratic delays?
When Amtrak sells a ticket they get the money up front. And all the personnel cost of collection and accounting is handled 'inline' by already-paid staff doing their jobs. Getting blood from a stone money out of a cash-strapped state commuter agency is not likely to be as smooth, or as costed-out. And all this BEFORE Amtrak tries charging NJT something 'more' than the ticket face value, or above whatever NJT considers its cost basis per passenger, to reflect the better service, etc...
f, for one, enjoyed the "Am and Cheese sandwich" and a cold can of Coke with a big cup of crumbled ice, from one of the movable chairs at the end of the car, watching the scenery between NYP and 30th St and hearing the sound of the track and the GG1's horn, many times. Better and somehow more satisfying than most other meals.
OvermodDepends significantly on how fast Amtrak got REIMBURSED by NJT for the tickets that were honored. Wanna bet it took a while? And involved a great deal of whining and bureaucratic delays?
I have no idea how long the reimbursement process took. What I do know is that for many years Amtrak honored NJT monthly tickets. And people who rode Amtrak trains (like me) always rode Amtrak. The trains were far more comfortable than NJT.
Of course even on the Northeast Corridor most NJT commuters did not have this option. Clockers did not stop at most NJT stations. Some stopped at Metropark, some stopped at New Brunswick and all stopped at Princeton Junction and Trenton. But they never stopped at a lot of stations.
Amtrak does not run clockers any more but they do still run Keystone service. They could sell their own monthly tickets limited to NYP to New Jersey stations for a substantial discount and they would fill seats that are now empty. But they don't do that either.
John
John WRThey could sell their own monthly tickets limited to NYP to New Jersey stations for a substantial discount and they would fill seats that are now empty. But they don't do that either.
The last thing Amtrak needs to do is run empty seats end to end. The second to the last thing thing Amtrak needs to do is run empty seats for 170 miles and fill them for the last 30.
Better to not run those seats at all.
John WR Amtrak does not run clockers any more but they do still run Keystone service. They could sell their own monthly tickets limited to NYP to New Jersey stations for a substantial discount and they would fill seats that are now empty. But they don't do that either. John
Amtrak may be unable to sell monthly commuter tickets on its own hook due to restrictions in the enabling legislation which created Amtrak.
Amtrak is an intercity passenger rail service, not a commuter service....so commuter rates would not be part of its service.
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oltmanndThe last thing Amtrak needs to do is run empty seats end to end. The second to the last thing thing Amtrak needs to do is run empty seats for 170 miles and fill them for the last 30.
Trenton to New York is 58 miles. Perhaps Amtrak should take a car off ithe Keystone trains. I known know just where the numbers fall. But until the day that it does Amtrak would be better off collecting a modest fare on seats that are now empty.
CSSHEGEWISCHAmtrak may be unable to sell monthly commuter tickets on its own hook due to restrictions in the enabling legislation which created Amtrak.
I bet you are right and that Amtrak cannot directly compete with New Jersey Transit. And when Amtrak stopped running its Clockers NJT added its own trains to take their place so NJT might not now be willing to enter into another agreement.
However, Trenton to New York is not the only possibility. I think Amtrak might look into reducing fares in some places for specific reasons in order to use excess capacity.
henry6Amtrak is an intercity passenger rail service, not a commuter service....so commuter rates would not be part of its service.
Henry,
Actually Amtrak does operate some commuter service. However, Don has pointed out that it has lost some routes to lower bidders.
Why should Amtrak try to compete Philly to NY? Last Fri. Ridewithmehenry checked Amtrak fares to NY at 2PM and all were at premium prices from 1:45PM through the afternoon. The $8.75 fare to Trenton was a subway token by comparison, and NJT had already lifted the $10.75 from Trenton to Port Jervis. which was like a half token! No, Amtrak is filling the seats and getting the bucks just fine.
henry6Why should Amtrak try to compete Philly to NY?
I agree, Henry, Amtrak does not try to compete between New York and Philadelphia. Frugal train riders can take NJT to Trenton and then walk a few feet and get on a SEPTA train to 30th Street. And I'm sure discount buses are even cheaper.
PS. Amrtrak ridership is up and Amtrak revenue from fares is up to clearly Amtrak is doing something right. In fact, a lot of things right.
I seem to remember when AMTRAK ran the clockers that they used Heritage equipment. The 5;00 PM NYP - PHL was usually 16 cars all full from NYP. The planned demise of Heritage equipment caused AMTRAK to allow njt to run the route ?
Yeah...PRR Clockers were famous...Amtrak took them over as inter city trains but handed them off to NJT which cut them back to Trenton. I always thought the Philadelphia service was going to resume but it never did. It is perhaps because the NJT-SEPTA two hour hand off system is cheaper and utilized or because Amtrak is doing OK with the service and marketing they are presenting. If there were to be a return to true Philadelphia-NYP Clocker service, I wonder which present service(s) would suffer most..
The Clockers I rode had regular Amfleet cars. They were so popular that on rare occasions there was standing room only.
henry6.PRR Clockers were famous...Amtrak took them over as inter city trains but handed them off to NJT which cut them back to Trenton.
Did NJT really cut the Clockers back to Trenton? When Amtrak stopped running them NJT added some express trains from Trenton stopping at Hamilton, Princeton Junction, Newark Liberty Airport, Newark and New York.
NJT has always had trains that connected with SEPTA trains at Trenton. It is a convenient service with a much lower fare than Amtrak and you can ride SEPTA as far as Wilmington. However, SEPTA trains run very slowly.
Amtrak gave up the Clockers and NJT was to have taken them over...but I don't know what happened that such service does not exist today...a couple of ideas: 1) SEPTA likes to get the revenue to Trenton and 2) Amtrak is doing well with their service and doesn't want to rock the boat by a quicker and cheaper service by NJT.
New Jersey Transit's express trains run as fast as the Clockers ever did. There may not be all that many of them (as you discovered when you got your express to Metro Park that made all stops after that) but the ones that do run express are very fast.
I rarely ride SEPTA to Philadelphia. I don't know if SEPTA has any fast service to Philadelphia.
PS. I just took a look at a SEPTA time table. All SEPTA trains, as far as I can see, take 50 minutes from Trenton to 30th Street Station. There are some express trains but they take 50 minutes too.
Clockers stops I believe were NYP, Newark, New Brunswick, Princeton, Trenton, No. Philadelphia, 30th St.; some making all those stops, others skipping one or two...90 minutes stop to start either direction. NJT's expresses make more stops; SEPTA makes all stops. Clocker coaches also were a step above the MU's but not full long distance comfort. Timing--both frequency and speed---was the selling point but comfort was the bonus.
Different Clockers made different stops. From the Pennsylvania Railroad's perspective they were local trains. And yes, they were not long distance coaches but they were more comfortable than New Jersey Transit's coaches. At that time all NJT coaches had 5 across seating.
John WRDid NJT really cut the Clockers back to Trenton?
Same issue as the Pennsylvanian, perhaps. Amounted to 'unfunded' service that can arguably be described as "local" service to Philadelphia -- since all the regular Boston-Washington trains still happily serve the Amtrak market between New York and Philadelphia at higher speed.
RME.
henry6 Clocker coaches also were a step above the MU's but not full long distance comfort. Timing--both frequency and speed---was the selling point but comfort was the bonus.
Clocker coaches also were a step above the MU's but not full long distance comfort. Timing--both frequency and speed---was the selling point but comfort was the bonus.
Agreed. Since I personally have traveled both the Amtrak and the NJT/SEPTA service between New York and Philly, the extra cost for Amtrak is worth whatever savings the commuter rail option is. I suspect Amtrak still does very good business in the NY-Philly "commuter" market even without the Clockers.
Getting back to Amtrak providing commuter service, their Springfield shuttles, Downeaster and Hiawatha services while not labeled as a commuter service do act in that sort of capacity.
Amtrak could be anywhere from $26 if you buy now to $60 or so if you wait til the last minute. Acela starts at $97 and goes up from there. SEPTA to Trenton is $8.75 and Trenton to NYP is $15.50 for a $25.25 total based on single trip fares. Sr. discounts are 15% on Amtrak except weekday Acela, NJT and SEPTA Sr fares are approximately 40% of the full fare. So if you plan at least 4 months in advance the cost for certain Amtrak trains is about even or worth the extra fare. But, if cost is the factor, undoubtedly the commuter fares will best suit your pocketbook.
And yes, while not labeled commuter services, for those who can afford the fares, there are numerous Amtrak trains that will fill the bill.
Although Amtrak does not designate any train as a Clocker it does provide fairly frequent service between New York and Washington. On weekdays almost all Northeast Regional Trains (including Keystone Trains) are no more than an hour apart beginning at 3 AM and ending at 11:05 pm. Many trains are about a half hour apart. There is a littler more than an hour between the first two trains of the day and the last two.
All I can add, Henry, is that the SEPTA trains are slow. With NJT if you choose your train it can be quite fast, an hour between Trenton and Newark.
There are people who commute between Philadelphia and New York. If I did and I could possibly afford it I would ride Amtrak.
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