Schlimm and Don,
I have said everything I can say about the Pennsylvanian. Both of you disagree with me. Is there something more I can say that will make either of you change your mind? If so, let me know. But I hope you will understand if I don't hold my breath waiting.
John
John WR Schlimm and Don, I have said everything I can say about the Pennsylvanian. Both of you disagree with me. Is there something more I can say that will make either of you change your mind? If so, let me know. But I hope you will understand if I don't hold my breath waiting. John
Show me it's worth $50 a head subsidy to keep it going versus letting it go. And, just for the record, I will not like seeing it go. I rode it a lot, way back when...
And, I wouldn't count out the Shuster boy finding a little slice of bacon for his home district....
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
aegrotatioWhat's the "Potomac Turbo," anyway?
The "Potomac Turbo" was an assignment of the UA Turbotrain to a roundtrip between Washington and somewhere in West Virginia on a curvy not-so-high speed line meant to mollify Harley Staggers, who was chairman of the House Commerce Committee at the time.
It might have also been called the "Train to Nowhere" during its senseless existence. it ran from DC to Parkersburg, West Virginia, with a political stop in Keyser, WVA, Staggers' hometown.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I ride Amtrak 42&43 3 to 4 times a year from Latrobe, Pa to Philly . my State of Pa better keep my train on, I will be one very Mad person come Oct 1, 2013.
Very nice article and thanks for sharing and telling us about this.
I rode on this route with my parents on the Pennsy heading for NYC and will never forget the conductor coming through the cars and announcing "Horseshoe Curve" and everyone moving over to the one side of the coach to watch the train go around this historic landmark. I also remember going through Johnstown and remembering stories I had read about the terrible flood.
A very scenic area and I hope Amtrak will be able to continue the route.
oltmanndShow me it's worth $50 a head subsidy to keep it going versus letting it go. And, just for the record, I will not like seeing it go. I rode it a lot, way back when...
Don,
I thought I made it clear that I consider Amtrak a national passenger railroad system and I think the system should not be dismantled part by part. I agree that each part does not have statistics that are identical to every other part.
Where subsidy is concerned, when Alex Kummant was President he pointed out all US transportation is subsidized. The subsidy issue is extremely complex. However, to single out one mode of transportation to object to the subsidy while ignoring the subsidy to all others is not, to my mind, a correct approach.
John WR oltmanndShow me it's worth $50 a head subsidy to keep it going versus letting it go. And, just for the record, I will not like seeing it go. I rode it a lot, way back when... Don, I thought I made it clear that I consider Amtrak a national passenger railroad system and I think the system should not be dismantled part by part. I agree that each part does not have statistics that are identical to every other part. Where subsidy is concerned, when Alex Kummant was President he pointed out all US transportation is subsidized. The subsidy issue is extremely complex. However, to single out one mode of transportation to object to the subsidy while ignoring the subsidy to all others is not, to my mind, a correct approach. John
The subsidy issue is very simple. Whereas all transportation modes receive subsidy in some form, direct or indirect, and at some level of funding, and yes, there are different ways of ascribing the level of subsidy, by whatever accounting you use, the Amtrak subsidy per passenger mile is multiple of everything else.
That the Amtrak subsidy per passenger mile is the rate that it is, this condition puts a target on its back whenever and to whoever in Congress or in the White House goes on a cost-cutting path. That the Amtrak subsidy is at the level it is per unit work product is a political impediment to growing Amtrak beyond the skeleton National Network that it is.
No one is singling Amtrak out for receiving a subsidy. It is singled out for receiving a high rate of subsidy. The various "Amtrak reform" plans involving drastic reductions in the Amtrak subsidy are actually proposing to reduce the Amtrak subsidy to comparable rates as other subsidy recipients.
When that message gets across, the response is to throw up one's hands, plead ignorance, and say things like "the subsidy issue is extremely complex." Other people get exasperated by "the bickering about the Amtrak subsidy" and say "let's not beat a dead horse" and let's move on.
And someone starts a new thread about "Amtrak costs" or some such thing, and the cycle starts all over again. And I suppose those of us who point out, not the existential fact of the Amtrak subsidy, but the high rate of the Amtrak subsidy as an impediment could simply end these cycles of discussion by keeping quiet and keeping our own counsel. And discussions here and elsewhere about passenger trains can continue to be gripe fests about how "the politicians" or "the voters" are stoopid for not agreeing to a comprehensive HSR network "as they have in all those other countries, and don'tcha know it, the U.S. is getting to be pretty Third World." As has happened for the past 40 years.
And Amtrak can continue to muddle along with the level of public support it gets, doing pretty much the same thing it has been doing the last 40 years for the next 40 years, which is "not much" (1 part in 1000 of total U.S. passenger miles).
Who is suggestion "dismantling Amtrak part by part"? The thing about "high speed baggage cars" is a question about whether Amtrak should take a rare opportunity to buy brand new passenger cars and then turn around and ask their mechanical department about the greatest need (yuh, we need baggage cars and crew-dorms) to maintain the same-old same-old status-quo.
Suppose the same money went into day coaches and that the long-distance trains (cough, Silver Service, cough) made do with Amfleet conversions or rebuilds? And that the day coaches went into increasing the frequency and capacity of corridor services? Would this in any way, shape, or form constitute "dismantling Amtrak" in any way?
The thing about a "thin corridor" on this thread is that maybe the resource put into that could be used to increase frequency and capacity in places the train is in high demand?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Paul MilenkovicThe subsidy issue is very simple. Whereas all transportation modes receive subsidy in some form, direct or indirect, and at some level of funding, and yes, there are different ways of ascribing the level of subsidy, by whatever accounting you use, the Amtrak subsidy per passenger mile is multiple of everything else.
The problem I have with the subsidy argument is that it is not at all clear that Amtrak gets more of a subsidy per passenger mile than anything else. There is information available of many kinds of subsidy for out road system. However, these subsidies are not a line item on a the Federal budget so they tend to get overlooked.
Right now Virgina's Governor Bob McDonnell proposes to levy a special sales tax of 0.8 per cent to be dedicated to highway expenses. Can you even imagine a Federal value added tax to be dedicated to Amtrak?
If you don't believe Paul's numbers, get an Amtrak report and do the math. you will see, as in the report the Slate article referred to, that Amtrak has a large operating loss, primarily from LD services. That loss is the operating subsidy. And that does not include infrastructure capital investment from the government (which i believe is a proper government role).
You're doggone rfight I won't be one of the celebrants. I wish I were wrong and at a certain level hope someone does prove me wrong. There is an effort going on to try to save this train but I just don't thing the State is going to listen.
Western Pennsylvanians for Passenger Rail (WPPR) is leading the effort to save the Pennsylvanian, and while there is still much work to do, it appears that the state is listening. WPPR's website (www.wpprrail,org) has links to numerous articles, news reports, editorials and interviews (most endorsing retention of the train) that show the issue is being well covered. Also, links to statements made by state representatives plus one showing a video of the recent exchange between the state House Transportation Committee and the Secretary of Transportation illustrate that support is steadily building in the legislature to fund the train. The many letters and calls to state officials have had a big, positive impact. It's very important that residents keep contacting their legislators.
That should be www.wpprrail.org.
The WPPR website should be www.wpprrail.org.
schlimmIf you don't believe Paul's numbers, get an Amtrak report and do the math. you will see, as in the report the Slate article referred to, that Amtrak has a large operating loss, primarily from LD services. That loss is the operating subsidy. And that does not include infrastructure capital investment from the government (which i believe is a proper government role).
Gee whiz, Schlimm, don't you trust me for anything? The numbers you refer to are not from Slate; they are from the Brookings Institute report. And, with all due respect for Paul who may well have posted the numbers from that report, I posted those same numbers myself. And when I posted the losses I put them in Red Letters. So I hope we can agree at least on what the numbers are.
John WR Paul MilenkovicThe subsidy issue is very simple. Whereas all transportation modes receive subsidy in some form, direct or indirect, and at some level of funding, and yes, there are different ways of ascribing the level of subsidy, by whatever accounting you use, the Amtrak subsidy per passenger mile is multiple of everything else. The problem I have with the subsidy argument is that it is not at all clear that Amtrak gets more of a subsidy per passenger mile than anything else. There is information available of many kinds of subsidy for out road system. However, these subsidies are not a line item on a the Federal budget so they tend to get overlooked. Right now Virgina's Governor Bob McDonnell proposes to levy a special sales tax of 0.8 per cent to be dedicated to highway expenses. Can you even imagine a Federal value added tax to be dedicated to Amtrak?
If you limit the scope to intercity transportation, the subsidy level is easier to figure out...and Paul is correct.
My 2 mile trips to Kroger over roads paid for primarily with property tax and sales tax are not the ones Amtrak is competing for...
I would have to use those roads to get to the train station or the interstate highway, regardless.
John WRGee whiz, Schlimm, don't you trust me for anything? The numbers you refer to are not from Slate; they are from the Brookings Institute report.
i know. That's why I said "in the report the Slate article referred to" and why I read the Brookings report and posted some figures from it. It makes a convincing case for doing a reform along the lines of what some of us are suggesting. Perhaps you read it differently?
One point of the Brookings Institution Report is that intercity rail routes (400 miles or less) make a profit. Of course, that does not answer the issue anti Amtrak people raise. The profit itself is, to their mind, a reason why these routes should be auctioned off to the private sector.
schlimm It makes a convincing case for doing a reform along the lines of what some of us are suggesting. Perhaps you read it differently?
According to Brookings routes of 400 miles or less have the greatest potential for profit if they are not already profitable. I see the report itself as an analysis rather than a political statement.
John WR Using double digits to number an interstate is against Federal policy
Except for I-5 on the west coast (and H1 on the Big Island) aren't all Interstate numbers double digits?
Isn't it kinda hard to call a highway in Hawaii an Interstate Highway? Or, has a bridge been built to connect Hawaii with another state?
All of my maps are packed for my moving, so I cannot check, but look at a Florida highway map; I think that there is at least one Interstate Highway in Florida that has a single digit number.
Johnny
Forgot about I-4. Tampa (i-75) to Daytona (I-95)
But should a road that stays in one state really be called an Interstate?
Fox2!Except for I-5 on the west coast (and H1 on the Big Island) aren't all Interstate numbers double digits?
Fox,
I made a wrong mistake. I should have said that repeating the same digit (as in I-99) is against Federal policy (except when it is written into the law), Of course many interstates have 2 digit numbers (for example, I-95).
There are interstates with 3 digit numbers. New Jersey has I-195 and I-295. Both are within the state. However it seems reasonable to me to call then interstates as they are part of the interstate system.
DeggestyIsn't it kinda hard to call a highway in Hawaii an Interstate Highway?
Johnny,
Are the Hawaiian highways interstates? They are designated "H" rather than "I."
John WRrepeating the same digit (as in I-99) is against Federal policy (except when it is written into the law),
A quick Google search shows that each of I-11 through I-88 is either in use or planned. I don't know if the enabling legislation actually specified the I number.
There are 3 Interstate Highways designated in Hawaii, 4 in Alaska, and 3 in Puerto Rico, which isn't even a state. Is Guam next?
Fox2!A quick Google search shows that each of I-11 through I-88 is either in use or planned.
According to Wiki I-11 has its number written into the law. I-22 is unclear.
What strikes me is that we are building Interstate Highways hand over fist while Amtrak is being cut back.
John WRWhat strikes me is that we are building Interstate Highways hand over fist while Amtrak is being cut back.
That may be because they serve many many many more people and communities, at many many many more effective times of day, than any conceivable Amtrak service of comparable expense will ... outside of congested corridors where most of the 'new' roads aren't going directly.
C'mon, that's not rocket science to see, even before you run numbers.
Now, in a world like 1973 where nobody gets more than a couple of gallons every other day... no, still doesn't work.
I would love to take Amtrak from Memphis to my house in Florida, but:
25 miles to the station, and the only parking protection is that the police use some of the lot to park cruisers.
Train time is about 6:08 am. Don't ask about when it gets to New Orleans.
Some ungodly layover in New Orleans; not a bad thing; I could visit Blanche in the hospital or meander over for pralines, or find some good Dixieland -- but I was going to Florida...
Connecting train wobbles around via Flomaton. Doesn't go within 30 miles of my house -- stops about 2:25 in the morning; where do I get a car with all the baggage I've had to pay for? Taxicab ride? (Assuming I can find one at that hour willing to go to Grayton Beach, while the wife and kids sit on the platform) That all by itself would probably cost alone twice what I'd pay in cost to drive rthe whole way (I got 26-28mpg indicated at 80 mph with a 12-cyllinder BMW like a parlor car on wheels, on I-78 and I-65 which are by no means flat).
Now let me mention again: there's a wife and two kids inserted in this .. excursion. Sure, my son would enjoy a ride in a sleeper. There's another $200 or so. Each.
Driving is under 500 miles -- under 8 hours with happily-timed meal stops that have a wide variety of food, and trips to see local attractions like railroad museums if I want. Southern wife brings 400 lb of all sorts of frilly stuff, makeup lights, health blenders and juicers, etc. etc. etc. -- pack it in! Need to stop for provisions for the house? There's the Wal-Mart in DeFuniak Springs (in all fairness, I could get the cab to stop there if I detrained there, but sardines in a can likely expresses how everything would fit). And... did I mention I don't have to rent a car or leave a beater down there?
Of course this is all moot because Amtrak and CSX had some kind of problem after Katrina, and the train doesn't run anywhere near where I'd be going anyway.
Don't ask the cost if trains ran everywhere people need to go, on a schedule frequent enough to be convenient for them EVEN IF YOU DISREGARD CONNECTIONS.
Multiply this, in theory, by the number of people who also don't go where the train goes, when the train goes,with more than one person in the group.
Don't misunderstand: I like Amtrak, even though I'd probably not ride it much. Just don't go trying to imply it's anywhere near as convenient than good highways under most practical circumstances...
RME
Bob,
It is true that if you drive your own car you can ignore train schedules and plane schedules and go and come as you please.
But the problems you cite -- lack of service to where you want to go -- are a self fulfilling prophecy. Amtrak runs so few trains that connecting schedules are almost always a problem. Therefore fewer trains are run and the problem gets worse. I'm you know that without the New Orleans to Jacksonville part of the Sunset Limited to get to Florida from Memphis you would have to go by way of Chicago which is pretty roundabout.
My point about all of the roads (which was perhaps not very clear) is that many or most are being built in rural areas where there is little demand for them and they already have other roads in those areas. But nobody ever questions money for all these redundant roads; only Amtrak is questioned.
John WRI'm [sure] you know that without the New Orleans to Jacksonville part of the Sunset Limited to get to Florida from Memphis you would have to go by way of Chicago which is pretty roundabout.
I am so old-fashioned that I still think it's insane that they took off the Broadway. And to name the 'replacement' Chicago -well, sort of roundabout-to-New-York after a B&O train -- without good Southern-mammy-type cooking -- well, no.
I could also say something about the lack of east-west service ANYWHERE near Memphis, but the mods say this is a family board.
Problem is that the folks AREN'T riding the through trains enough to pay their way. Or we wouldn't be having the whole Pennsylvanian argument in the first place.
You are of course right about most of the 'pork barrel' or 'road/bridge to nowhere' projects, of which there are many. But there are other aspects of the Interstate system -- I-69, for example -- that should have a higher priority than anything involved with Amtrak, including the added cars for the Acela consists (and that's sayin' something!) Other additions, in particular some of the 2-lane 'Interstate Lite" routes with extensive truck traffic going through mountains -- of which 40/81 is a particularly glaring example -- are so sadly in need of a third lane (since truck-no-passing-zone enactment appears to be dead on arrival wherever I bring it up) and here again the bang for the megabuck is extraordinarily high by any greatest-good-for-the-greatest-number metric you can provide.
Problem with the LD trains is much the same as the problem with LD trains in the years after WWII -- to run even marginally increased service (measured in 'sailing days', not even hours) involves multiple trainsets with multiple cars if you are going to run them at a maximum 79 mph -- and the situation is not that miuch better at 110, or even 125 (at which point you go straight to HSR and the LD numbers fly impossibly out the window).
It's also like the unspoken stuff about the cheap TGV. If I had a full network of LGV costed down, and a full-on PTC system giving max track occupancy also costed down, and a whole passel of 'obsolescent' trains that are still among the best in the world, also costed down, and I had lots and lots of subsidized nuclear power to make the trick work, largely costed down and with minimal effective NIMBY crap and 'enlightened' views on effective reprocessing...
... well, I could offer one hell of a discount service, too, and lots asnd lots of people would ride it. (But to get all this for the LD network in the first place would be trillions; you could STILL buy every passenger a Volkswagen and free gas and still come out ahead.
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