The Pennsylvanian has fairly few (400 a day) passengers between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh but those few are enthusiastic according to a February 17th article in The Pittsburgh Post Gazette. There are interviews with a several people who describe how important the train is to their lives. There are also descriptions and photographs of empty seats.
Reading the article makes it seem a little less impossible for Amtrak to come up with the funds and if it doesn't the state of Pennslyvania to come up with the funds. It also mentions the fact that the House Transportation Subcommittee Chairman Bill Shuster's 9th district includes part of the Pennsylvanian's route.
Whether or not the train will continue after October 1 is anybody's guess. If you've never rode over the horseshoe curve and you want to it might be a good idea to do it this spring or summer.
Here is a link to the article: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/state/amtraks-regulars-treasure-the-pennsylvanian-675749/
John WR The Pennsylvanian has fairly few (400 a day) passengers between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh but those few are enthusiastic according to a February 17th article in The Pittsburgh Post Gazette. There are interviews with a several people who describe how important the train is to their lives. There are also descriptions and photographs of empty seats. Reading the article makes it seem a little less impossible for Amtrak to come up with the funds and if it doesn't the state of Pennslyvania to come up with the funds. It also mentions the fact that the House Transportation Subcommittee Chairman Bill Schuster's 9th district includes part of the Pennsylvanian's route. Whether or not the train will continue after October 1 is anybody's guess. If you've never rode over the horseshoe curve and you want to it might be a good idea to do it this spring or summer. Here is a link to the article: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/state/amtraks-regulars-treasure-the-pennsylvanian-675749/
Reading the article makes it seem a little less impossible for Amtrak to come up with the funds and if it doesn't the state of Pennslyvania to come up with the funds. It also mentions the fact that the House Transportation Subcommittee Chairman Bill Schuster's 9th district includes part of the Pennsylvanian's route.
Schuster's dad would have found quid-pro-quo pork to keep it going. It's probably why the train managed to get from 403b status to part of the national network in the first place. Schuster will have heck-to-pay in his district if it comes off.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmanndSchuster's dad would have found quid-pro-quo pork to keep it going. It's probably why the train managed to get from 403b status to part of the national network in the first place. Schuster will have heck-to-pay in his district if it comes off.
It just happens that the Pennsylvanian, which has been slated to have its Federal money zeroed out, comes from the district of the guy who is now Chairman of the Subcommittee that oversees Amtrak. It seems like a little more than a coincidence.
John WR oltmanndSchuster's dad would have found quid-pro-quo pork to keep it going. It's probably why the train managed to get from 403b status to part of the national network in the first place. Schuster will have heck-to-pay in his district if it comes off. It just happens that the Pennsylvanian, which has been slated to have its Federal money zeroed out, comes from the district of the guy who is now Chairman of the Subcommittee that oversees Amtrak. It seems like a little more than a coincidence.
Do a little digging on his dad. He was the head of the same committee for years and years. Funnelled maximum pork toward his district (Altoona area). I'd bet he had quite a bit to do with the Pennsylvanian even existing in the first place.
Not unlike Harley Staggers and the "Potomac Turbo" in the 1970's.
oltmanndDo a little digging on his dad.
Don,
I did some digging but did not find a connection between Bud Shuster and The Pennsylvanian or any of its predecessor trains.
Bud Shuster was very successful with pork barrel legislation in general. In Pennsylvania his name is associated with bridges and highways including I-99 which is also known as the Bud Shuster Highway. Repeating the same digits to number an interstate is against Federal policy but at Bud Shuster's insistence the highway number was actually written into the law.
In general Bud Shuster was favorable to Amtrak. He himself said most of all he wanted to be remembered for his contribution to transportation in the United States. However, I did not find any direct link between him and any specific Amtrak route in Pennsylvania.
John
CSSHEGEWISCHNot unlike Harley Staggers and the "Potomac Turbo" in the 1970's.
Is there a connection between the West Virginian and the Pennsylvanian? The West Virginian (derisively called the Patomac Turbo and other names) was introduced to try new high speed technology and satisfy Congressman Harley O. Staggers. It was ultimately withdrawn.
New York to Pittsburgh rail service began long before Amtrak. Up to several years ago there was through service from New York to Chicago via PIttsburgh and there was more than one daily train. The Pennsylvanian is a reduction of long standing service on the line. I don't see a connection between these two trains.
The common factor is congressional pork to appease powerful committee chairs. The Pennsylvanian started in 1980 as a state-supported daylight train between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia and was a resumption of the pre-Amtrak Duquesne. It ran to Chicago from 1998 to 2003. It had nothing to do with the NYC-CHI Broadway Limited, which ran as an Amtrak train from 1971-1995. Both trains were PRR ones. The Pennsylvanian represents two problems of Amtrak: 1. Legacy routes that worked 50 years ago. 2. Routes based on political favors and pork. No Way to Run a Railroad and no way to have a modern, useful passenger service.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
A bit more about the Pennsylvanian and Bud Shuster.
The Pennsylvanian went on shortly after the route through PA lost the National Limited. That's really the train it replaced, not the long dead Duquesne.
Bud Shuster directed as much pork home as he could. He used his position power to bend things to his will for his home district. For example, when Conrail consolidated backshops, guess which shop "won"? When NS and CSX were doing their Conrail deal, in included keeping Hollidaysburg car shops open for five years. Guess why?
Federal money for a train station in Altoona, for a Railroaders Memorial Museum, a state steam locomotive, etc, etc.
A second train connecting Altoona to the east appears shortly after the National Limited comes off. I can add 2+2....
Arlen Spector and several Representatives all also had a hand in this.
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schlimmRoutes based on political favors and pork. No Way to Run a Railroad and no way to have a modern, useful passenger service.
I agree that pork barrel legislation is no way to run a railroad, Schlimm. But neither is it a way to run an interstate highway system. In Pennsylvania that has gotten a lot more pork than Amtrak and part of the reason Amtrak finds it hard to compete is the pork for the interstate highway system.
In the US pork goes back to the days when George Washington got money for the C&O canal. I doubt it will stop any time soon.
oltmanndBud Shuster directed as much pork home as he could.
I didn't intend to suggest anything different, Don. Everything I read about Representative Bud Shuster indicated he was big on sending pork home. However, I just could not find any specific reference that links him to the Pennsylvanian. John
Henry,
Arlen Specter actually road Amtrak trains. Often with Joe Biden. And he was a supporter of Amtrak in general; not just trains in Pennsylvania.
400 passengers per day seems pretty good! Is this a round trip figure, or an average of 200 each way? Can't help but think that additional frequencys would really grow that market.
The article says the average is almost 400 riders for the "segment" which I understand as Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. Since there are two trains a day -- one in each direction -- I think they mean the average is almost 200 between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh on each train.
Some people argue that a better connection with the capitol limited would increase the number of riders.
To paraphrase: "Never were so many words wasted for so few people." I believe Don Oltmann made it quite clear on the other thread that the bulk of the Pennsylvanian's ridership is Harrisburg and points east, with perhaps some from Altoona.
John WR The article says the average is almost 400 riders for the "segment" which I understand as Harrisburg to Pittsburgh. Since there are two trains a day -- one in each direction -- I think they mean the average is almost 200 between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh on each train. Some people argue that a better connection with the capitol limited would increase the number of riders.
Okay. I estimated 100,000 a year. 400 a day is 140,000 a year. It's not an order of magnitude difference. For $7M. That's a $50 a passenger subsidy. Pretty steep. And, bus service is available everywhere on the route except Huntingdon.
FYI when Amtrak started on May 1, 1971 the NY-Pittsburgh service consisted of the BROADWAY & NATIONAL LIMITEDS running combined between NY-Harrisburg and as separate trains west of Harrisburg after picking up their respective thru cars from Washington D.C. There was also a day train between NY-Pittsburgh (The DUQUESNE). IIRC within a year or two Amtrak made the NATIONAL a separate train between NY-KC and the DUQUESNE was dropped. After the NATIONAL was dropped in October 1979 the PENNSYLVANIAN began in April of 1980.
The problem with the PENNSYLVANIAN IMHO is not that it is a legacy route (which it is that between July and September 2012 averaged 300 passengers per train) but that Amtrak has mismanaged the former BROADWAY NY-CHI line beginning with the less than well thought out rerouting west of Pittsburgh in 1990 and the final discontinuance in 1995.
The future of the PENNSYLVANIAN revolves around it being consolidated with the CAPITOL LIMITED while maintaining its present schedule and providing thru convenient service between Chicago and NYC via Harrisburg, Philadelphia and New Jersey
bill613a FYI when Amtrak started on May 1, 1971 the NY-Pittsburgh service consisted of the BROADWAY & NATIONAL LIMITEDS running combined between NY-Harrisburg and as separate trains west of Harrisburg after picking up their respective thru cars from Washington D.C. There was also a day train between NY-Pittsburgh (The DUQUESNE). IIRC within a year or two Amtrak made the NATIONAL a separate train between NY-KC and the DUQUESNE was dropped. After the NATIONAL was dropped in October 1979 the PENNSYLVANIAN began in April of 1980. The problem with the PENNSYLVANIAN IMHO is not that it is a legacy route (which it is that between July and September 2012 averaged 300 passengers per train) but that Amtrak has mismanaged the former BROADWAY NY-CHI line beginning with the less than well thought out rerouting west of Pittsburgh in 1990 and the final discontinuance in 1995. The future of the PENNSYLVANIAN revolves around it being consolidated with the CAPITOL LIMITED while maintaining its present schedule and providing thru convenient service between Chicago and NYC via Harrisburg, Philadelphia and New Jersey
Johnny
Yes there was. When Conrail advised Amtrak it wanted the BROADWAY & CAPITOL rerouted there was very little if any public discourse about possible alternatives. As a matter of fact an Amtrak official recently said of the 1990 reroute that they just "did it". As part of the deal Conrail paid for (IIRC $1million) a connection just east of the Cleveland station so as to avoid an in/out back up procedure.
As for the BROADWAY it was put on the ex-B&O line which with the exception of the stops at Akron and Youngstown (which hadn't had intercity rail service since 1971) there wasn't much of a ridership base. The ex-PRR line over the decades had generated good ridership out of Canton, Lima and especially Fort Wayne. IMHO the best routing would have been the ex-B&O Pittsburgh to Fostoria and then Fostoria-Fort Wayne-Chicago over the NS (ex-NKP). The ex-NKP and ex-B&O line cross at grade just past the station. Amtrak should have requested a connection similar to what the CL got in Cleveland. Of course this was an OTB solution which Amtrak seems to always have trouble with.
bill613a ... The future of the PENNSYLVANIAN revolves around it being consolidated with the CAPITOL LIMITED while maintaining its present schedule and providing thru convenient service between Chicago and NYC via Harrisburg, Philadelphia and New Jersey
...
The Pennsylvanian is run like a compromise between a corridor train running in daytime, but with the schedule skewed to provide a "reasonable" connection time (3-4 hrs) to the long distance Capitol Ltd. I have waited longer than 4 hrs to make a reasonably priced airline connection. If the Penn was rescheduled to make tight connections to the present Capitol Ltd, you would loose many of those 400 people who don't want to arrive at Pittsburgh at midnight or leave at 5AM, all for a handful of people connecting from the Cap Ltd. How would you schedule the 2 trains?
Assuming those 400 ride all the way to or from Pittsburgh is not true. Most are between Harrisburg and Philly.
schlimm Assuming those 400 ride all the way to or from Pittsburgh is not true. Most are between Harrisburg and Philly.
The "nearly 400" is west of Harrisburg.
Earlier on this thread we heard 300 ride this train daily according to Amtrak. That means Pittsburgh to Philly and all points in between. So it is unlikely 400 or even 300 are west of Harrisburg and that nthe train deadheads on to Philly.
Schlimm,
The Pittsburgh Post Gazette reports 400 passengers a day ride the Pennsylvanian between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh.
Bill said 300 ride the train each day. He said nothing about where they get on an off and he did not attribute that number to Amtrak. He did not say where he got the statistic.
I went to Amtrak's performance reports. These the the numbers of riders Amtrak reports for each month from December, 2012 to January, 2010 in that order:
56,530; 37,072; 18,536; 16,423; 19,392; 19,595; 19,146; 17,718; 18,582; 17,060; 13,578 and 16,765.
The total is 270,317. Dividing by 365 gives an average daily number of passengers between New York and Pittsburgh of 740.59. However, there is no way to know where these people get on and get off the train. Amtrak does publish boardings and alightings by station. However, in PIttsburgh the figures include those of the Capitol Limited as well as the Pennsylvanian and in Harrisburg there is no way to know which passengers come or go from east bound stations and which come or go from west bound stations so you cannot separate out those traveling between New York and Harrisburg from those who begin or end their journies at stations west of Harrisburg.
I calculated by mean with a paper and pencil and calculator if you want to check the calculations yourself. Amtrak's Monthly Performance Reports are available on their website.
If I am not mistaken, the figures you provided are for ALL riders of the train, both eastbound and westbound. So you'd have to divide by two to get a rough idea of the "Pittsburgh-to-New-York" riders vs. the 'New-York-to-Pittsburgh' ones.
This cries out for better data. Are the ridership numbers balanced for eastbound vs. westbound? How many people are connecting with the National Limited in either direction? What ARE the intermediate points where people are boarding or detraining -- Harrisburg may be a logical intermediate destination in both directions, but with asymmetry due to the Keystone service east.
Can this be extracted from published sources?
Overmod,
The data I give includes east and west bound passengers. It seems reasonable to assume the numbers are about equal but I don't know of any published data that will give this information.
Station stops west of Harrisburg are Lewistown, Huntingdon, Tyrone, Altoona, Johnstown, Latrobe, Greensburg and Pittsburgh.
In addition to the Pennslyvanian there are 13 trains Monday through Friday in Keystone service. All Keystone trains either run between New York and Harrisburg or have a connecting train at Philadelphia 30th Street. The Pennsylvanian is the 14th train in Keystone service.
Here are the boardings and alightings from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh for fiscal year 2012 from the Pennsylvania Fact Sheet:
Harrisburg 571,217; Lewistown 8,315; Huntingdon 5,837; Tyrone 3,108; Altoona 26,978; Johnstown 23,964; Latrobe 4,669; Greensburg 13,395 and Pittsburgh 129,372.
Harrisburg is from the 14 trains that stop there. Pittsburgh includes the Pennsylvanian and Capitol Limited.
Adding the numbers in my head there are about 86,000 boardings and alightings each year from Lewistown to Greensburg.
About 270,000 ride the Pennsyvanian each year and of that number about 86,000 board or alight from Lewistown to Greensburg. That is about 32 per cent of all riders. And of course some boarding and alighting at Harrisburg and Pittsburgh are part of the Harrisburg and Pittsburgh traffic so I suspect that a lot more than a third of all riders use that segment of the Pennsylvanian.
oltmanndThat's a $50 a passenger subsidy. Pretty steep. And, bus service is available everywhere on the route except Huntingdon.
If we are going to say that to subsidize Amtrak travel is unacceptable then we will immediately stop every single Amtrak train except the Acelas. And without the Northeast Regional Service the Acelas will lose money to so we will stop them and there will be no more Amtrak. If there is no more Amtrak there is nothing to discuss.
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