The last time that I rode the Capitol to Pittsburgh the station was open. We got off at 4:35AM. We walkied around downtown Pittsburgh. Had some breakfast. Enjoyed the sights. There was a beautiful Christmas display. Went back and waited in the station to board the Pennsylvanian for Lancaster. On the return trip to Chicago we had to wait what seemed like forever for the Capitol. It was late from Washington DC and I beleive it was after 1:00AM before it arrived.
We have made that trip twice and, to the best of my knowledge, the Pittsburgh station was always open. Has something changed?
daveklepperOn cold winter nights with a snowstorm the change in Pittsburgh is actually a health and safety hazard!
Dave,
Is the Pittsburgh Station open all night? Coming from Chicago the Capitol Cities Limited arrives in Pittsburgh at 4:35 am. To change to the Pennsylvanian to New York you have to wait to 7:35 am. Do they put you out of the station until it opens the next day or can you wait inside?
John
On cold winter nights with a snowstorm the change in Pittsburgh is actually a health and safety hazard! I pointed that out to Claytor by mail, and then the thru cars were organized, to be dropped when the Capitol went Superliner. Are there transition cars that can solve the problem?
The argument of years is a non argument.....the times are so different: business and political philosophies, social needs, environmental conditions, energy supplies, land usage, so much different. Railroads in 1970 were swimming in red ink because of major shifts in industry from the Northeast to the South and Southwest, the effects of the St.Lawrence Seaway on harbors on the east coast, and the increasing availability of the Eisenhower Interstate Highway system across the entire country. The US Postal Service had finished the use of railroads for carrying mail on passenger trains, people had at least two cars in every household, rails were desperate to fight the trucking industry. Today, population shifts have slowed considerably, Eastern cities and metropolitan areas are growing, the overcrowded highway infrastructure in need of repairs and replacement, energy prices are what? ten or more times what they were in 1970, air pollution has to be brought under control along with costs of transportation, airlines have pulled full size jets out of hundreds of airports and replaced the service with small, claustrophobic planes. The number of Class One railroads has shrunk to less than a dozen from hundreds by mergers, acquisitions, and abandonment of lines. And private enterprise railroads and trucking companies work together to move freight long distances for many social and technical reasons. So trucking companies and railroads are now looking to the Federal government together for help in building a transportation infrastructure for the future. And people on trains is again an idea whose time has come. Not a choo choo train, but a passenger rail system that is combined with auto, bus, and air to provide a transportation service to meet demands and needs of the nation. Is the LD train part of this mix? or do we just run seats along corridors? Who are we serving? people? politicians? money sources? A whole different world in 2013 than in 1970..a whole lot different. Needs new way of thinking than then.
Just like getting rid of the FB banner at the bottom of this page...mere clicking it out is going to wear thin and other means will have to be found.....
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
John WR bill613aFor example if Penn DOT paid for whatever switches (if any ) need to be (re) installed at Pittsburgh and Amtrak finally makes a move on the PRIIA of FY 2010 on running thru cars to Philadelphia and NYC the PENNSYLVANIAN could become the NYC section of the CAPITOL similar to the Boston section of the LSL and the Portland section of the EB. Bill, I know you are speculating here but I find your idea fascinating. Right now changing from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Limited requires a long wait, sometimes in the middle of the night. Never the less 19,000 people a year make the change. With through service it could be possible to pick up a significantly larger number of riders. With best regards, John
bill613aFor example if Penn DOT paid for whatever switches (if any ) need to be (re) installed at Pittsburgh and Amtrak finally makes a move on the PRIIA of FY 2010 on running thru cars to Philadelphia and NYC the PENNSYLVANIAN could become the NYC section of the CAPITOL similar to the Boston section of the LSL and the Portland section of the EB.
Bill,
I know you are speculating here but I find your idea fascinating. Right now changing from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Limited requires a long wait, sometimes in the middle of the night. Never the less 19,000 people a year make the change. With through service it could be possible to pick up a significantly larger number of riders.
With best regards, John
Ah, yes! The concept of service instead of running trains.
Banner, get out of my way so I can click "post"!
John WRThe problem, of course, what that people did not stop riding trains. When Amtrak began fewer than 20 million people a year rode trains. As soon as Amtrak began the number began to grow slowly and by fits and starts. Today, however, about 30 million people ride trains each year.
And, what was the population then? And what is it now?
200M and 350M. Not keeping pace - although the last decade has been better.
All the growth last year was in the corridor trains. LD is dead. It has a completely irrelevant market share.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
henry6The answer is not in the Federal government but the state houses of PA and TN. If TN needs and wants a train, they are to pony up their share and the Feds will theirs. That's how it done in all other states. The Fed is not favoring one state over another, each state must pay their part.
You make an interesting observation, Henry. From the outset the state of Pennsylvania has shared the cost of the Pennsylvanian with the Federal Government and shared the costs of the Philadelphia to Harrisburg service. This mutual agreement has been going on for many years now and has always been considered fair to both sided. Most people have not questioned it but as we all know the last Congressional term included strong opposition to Amtrak. We will have to wait and see what happens this term.
But I think the question of shared costs is not as simple as states sharing the costs of trains that run through them. Does North Dakota share the cost of the part of the Empire Builder that passes through it? I have never heard that it does.
Best wishes, John
A McIntosh,
What I have read is that the private railroads had been arguing for some time that passengers were deserting them. They were making the argument because they wanted to abandon passenger service. Some in government did buy into that argument and Richard Nixon may have been one of them. Those who did accept the argument expected Amtrak to be short lived and phased out when everyone stopped riding trains. The problem, of course, what that people did not stop riding trains. When Amtrak began fewer than 20 million people a year rode trains. As soon as Amtrak began the number began to grow slowly and by fits and starts. Today, however, about 30 million people ride trains each year.
Back in 1970 many private railroads which were not broke were still having financial difficulty. They very much wanted to get rid of the burden of passenger service in any way they could. Amtrak offered them the way to do just that.
PS
Don, The City of New Orleans serves South Fulton and New Bern/Dyersberg in Tennessee. The Amtrak station for South Fulton is actually in Fulton, Kentucky. Fulton and South Fulton are right on the border. I believe these are both fairly rural areas.
Don,
According to the Altoona Mirror the total subsidy for the Harrisburg to Pittsburgh section of the Pennsylvanian is $5.7 million, not $7 million. Of that amount the state of Pennsylvania already pays half so the Federal portion is $2.85 million.
As far fairness is concerned, when public needs are provided by the government through taxes there is no possible way for every person in the country to benefit equally. That doesn't happen with taxes and has never happened. If we were to require equal benefit for any tax funded expenditure we would have no government at all. For example, last September Joe Boardman pointed out that in the 3 prior years $50 billion was transferred from the general fund to spend on highways. That is more than has been spent on Amtrak in all of the years Amtrak has existed.
Have you changed your mind about Altoona's importance to the history and culture of America?
But is not the Capitol a Superliner train? How many transition cars does Amtrak have?
IIRC the PENNSYLVANIAN began in April of 1980 as a 403-b service. It continued that way for many years until sometime in the late 90's (?) when it became part of the national system. I don't see Amtrak and Penn DOT pulling the plug on the Philadelphia-Harrisburg service what with the large investments that have been made in it. Not supporting the Harrisburg-Pittsburgh segment may cause some political rancor but probably not enough to save the service as is. This issue will undoubtedly require a deal between NS, Amtrak and Penn DOT similar to what was worked out among BNSF, the state of North Dakota and Amtrak to save the service thru Grand Forks. For example if Penn DOT paid for whatever switches (if any ) need to be (re) installed at Pittsburgh and Amtrak finally makes a move on the PRIIA of FY 2010 on running thru cars to Philadelphia and NYC the PENNSYLVANIAN could become the NYC section of the CAPITOL similar to the Boston section of the LSL and the Portland section of the EB.
henry6 schlimm Buried in one article was this: "Another possibility would be for Pennsylvania to contract with another rail operator, such as SEPTA or a private firm like Herzog Transit Services Inc. of St. Joseph, Mo., to run the trains. 'It might put more of the onus on PennDot to start looking around for a competitive bidder," said Mitchell. "Amtrak's unit operating costs are relatively high.' " Apparently, Amtrak has very high operating (read labor) costs compared to other operators in the same area. It would be very interesting if that info could be teased out and an average percentage difference were known in various areas. Perhaps we could have real regional services if operating expenses were somewhat lower? Yes...this is now possible....another added codicel Congress added later to prompt Amtrak out of business.
schlimm Buried in one article was this: "Another possibility would be for Pennsylvania to contract with another rail operator, such as SEPTA or a private firm like Herzog Transit Services Inc. of St. Joseph, Mo., to run the trains. 'It might put more of the onus on PennDot to start looking around for a competitive bidder," said Mitchell. "Amtrak's unit operating costs are relatively high.' " Apparently, Amtrak has very high operating (read labor) costs compared to other operators in the same area. It would be very interesting if that info could be teased out and an average percentage difference were known in various areas. Perhaps we could have real regional services if operating expenses were somewhat lower?
Buried in one article was this:
"Another possibility would be for Pennsylvania to contract with another rail operator, such as SEPTA or a private firm like Herzog Transit Services Inc. of St. Joseph, Mo., to run the trains. 'It might put more of the onus on PennDot to start looking around for a competitive bidder," said Mitchell. "Amtrak's unit operating costs are relatively high.' "
Apparently, Amtrak has very high operating (read labor) costs compared to other operators in the same area. It would be very interesting if that info could be teased out and an average percentage difference were known in various areas. Perhaps we could have real regional services if operating expenses were somewhat lower?
Yes...this is now possible....another added codicel Congress added later to prompt Amtrak out of business.
Amtrak has not been able to hang onto commuter operating contracts - even the ones they really, really wanted to. That should have been enough to light a fire under them and get them going. Sadly, that hasn't happened. They have enough fat, still, that they can just bounce over the fiscal cliff like it's a speed bump.
henry6The Fed is not favoring one state over another, each state must pay their part.
So, might as well save the money from the no value added round trip to DC!
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
oltmannd John WR Don, Do I understand correctly that you believe we should dismiss the needs of those who actually need the Pennsylvanian for transportation but you do sympathize with rail fans who want to ride on the Horseshoe Curve and come to Altoona? Here is the link to the article in the Altoona Mirror: http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/content.detail/id/568561/Retain-Amtrak-service.html Best regards, John We don't need to dismiss anything out of hand. We do need to be fair about how we go about things. Why should rural PA get a Federally subsidized train but rural Tennessee does not? Is that fair? Does TN get something in lieu of a passenger rail subsidy? Not that I can see.
John WR Don, Do I understand correctly that you believe we should dismiss the needs of those who actually need the Pennsylvanian for transportation but you do sympathize with rail fans who want to ride on the Horseshoe Curve and come to Altoona? Here is the link to the article in the Altoona Mirror: http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/content.detail/id/568561/Retain-Amtrak-service.html Best regards, John
Do I understand correctly that you believe we should dismiss the needs of those who actually need the Pennsylvanian for transportation but you do sympathize with rail fans who want to ride on the Horseshoe Curve and come to Altoona?
Here is the link to the article in the Altoona Mirror: http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/content.detail/id/568561/Retain-Amtrak-service.html
Best regards, John
We don't need to dismiss anything out of hand. We do need to be fair about how we go about things. Why should rural PA get a Federally subsidized train but rural Tennessee does not? Is that fair? Does TN get something in lieu of a passenger rail subsidy? Not that I can see.
The answer is not in the Federal government but the state houses of PA and TN. If TN needs and wants a train, they are to pony up their share and the Feds will theirs. That's how it done in all other states. The Fed is not favoring one state over another, each state must pay their part.
A McIntosh As I recall, the Nixon Administration seemed to have an understanding with some railroads that they would let Amtrak die a natural death. The 1973 Arab oil embargo changed all that. Then the 1979 Iranian revolution caused a near repeat to occur. If it had not been for those, Amtrak would just be a footnote in history.
As I recall, the Nixon Administration seemed to have an understanding with some railroads that they would let Amtrak die a natural death. The 1973 Arab oil embargo changed all that. Then the 1979 Iranian revolution caused a
near repeat to occur. If it had not been for those, Amtrak would just be a footnote in history.
Yes. That took a lot of steam out of the "let it die" crowd.
One other piece of history is how Volpe managed to get the legislation by Nixon's staff in the first place. Volpe was really the only supporter - there was quite a bit of intrigue.
Is anybody being stranded if the train comes off? Yes, Huntingdon. What are their options? They would need to find rides to Tyrone or State College to catch a bus. Is that worth $7M? Perhaps the state could run a subsidized van service to Tyrone to meet the bus. Might be cheaper than $7M.
henry6 The Hell with nostalgia! We have better technology and equipment today than ever. But we don't use it. So many rail enthusiasts today who don't know history. Same with railroaders who can't fathom how they used to run trains on timetables and train orders faster and more efficiently than they can a double track or even CTC system today. Go over to the Transit forum where I am about to post a lambast!
The Hell with nostalgia! We have better technology and equipment today than ever. But we don't use it. So many rail enthusiasts today who don't know history. Same with railroaders who can't fathom how they used to run trains on timetables and train orders faster and more efficiently than they can a double track or even CTC system today. Go over to the Transit forum where I am about to post a lambast!
Oh, we can fathom it, but try doing that with today's rules, regulations, and greatly reduced workforce.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
henry6 So many rail enthusiasts today who don't know history.
Henry,
Has any large group of people ever known history? O tempora. O mores.
schlimmThis notion may or may not be true. The source was Ralph Budd and it has been repeated in several places, most recently in Trains about 2-3 years ago.
Schlimm,
Unfortunately I can't get into Trains archive to see the article about Ralph Budd. But I certainly accept Henry's representation that he has read that Republicans did not really want Amtrak to last and I accept your own representation.
But it is axiomatic in politics that you don't have to offer the people something but having offered it and enacted it into law it is almost impossible to get it back again. For any politician on either side of the aisle to propose a program he does not want to see continue would be naïve beyond belief. And what ever else President Nixon may have been he sure was not naïve.
I have to be skeptical that any administration would propose and have enacted a program that they believed was bad for the country.
henry6 Again we have the Lionel Set trying to railroad. The Lionel Set likes to run trains and can around a Christmas tree but know nothing about railroading, marketing, and service.
Again we have the Lionel Set trying to railroad. The Lionel Set likes to run trains and can around a Christmas tree but know nothing about railroading, marketing, and service.
John WRThe idea that the Nixon administration would propose legislation, have it introduced into the Congress, support it and sign it into law when in fact the administration opposed that legislation is something I find it difficult to understand. As I say, perhaps you could help me with a source.
This notion may or may not be true. The source was Ralph Budd and it has been repeated in several places, most recently in Trains about 2-3 years ago.
henry6he "Lionel Set" I refer to are those who know how to snap some track together around a Christmas tree and run a train around.
Do you refer to Joe Boardman? As I recall Fred Frailley's article included a picture of him in his office with a model train.
henry6 Further, at the time, it was felt that any passenger service or company would be short lived as more people would have cars and fly so the passenger railroad would just go away. That was the plan and hopes of the Republicans, freight railroads, and the highway lobby at the time.
My own recollection is that most (but not all) freight railroads were quite willing to give up their passenger trains and didn't want to raise issues which might interfere with that. They tended to be quite until the legislation was passed so they could get ride of passenger service. However, a couple of roads held on to their passenger trains.
Certainly the highway lobby may have hoped for the demise of passenger railroads.
But the Republican party? Why in the world would the Republican party give the country something they didn't want the country to have? If they really wanted Amtrak to go away they could have simply declined to give it to the country in the first place and left passenger service up to private railroads with a proviso that would make it easy for private railroads to drop it. From my perspective for Republicans to propose and pass legislation that they really wanted to be ultimately defeated makes no sense at all for the reason you state: It might enable the public to return to riding the trains.
the "Lionel Set" I refer to are those who know how to snap some track together around a Christmas tree and run a train around. They think in terms of running trains instead of providing service, of picking up the track and putting it away when they are tired of it, aren't using it, or stumped as to what to do. They don't market, they don't provide service, because they don't understand marketing and service just put the cars on the track with a locomotive at one end and let it go.
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