iron mountain So the name is simply an association and interest that I have in my geographical area, state's history, and family's history.
Iron,
I lost track of your post. However, I find your story fascinating. My own belief is that railroads are a much much more important part of our history than is generally realized. In many ways it is our railroads that created the country we live in today and gave us a culture that many in the world envy.
I find Jay Gould interesting. The Missouri Pacific was an important part of his empire.
John
Your thoughts are accurate as to my suggestions. The bottom line is that with resources that are currently available (and under utilized) the combined CAPITOL/PENNSYLVANIAN can become a strong compliment to the LSL by serving most major markets with decent train times. Service would remain on the NS which may even welcome one less set of trains on its busy Toledo-Chicago main line.
My suggestion revolves around running Chicago-Fort Wayne on the NS (ex-NKP) and Fort Wayne-Butler on the NS (ex-Wabash).
iron mountain Bill, Interesting idea. I had to get the atlas out to get the picture in my mind. It seems one issue is the redundancy of the LSL and CL between CHI and Cleveland. Is that correct? You would have the CL take a more SEasterly route out of CHI to Fort Wayne and then to Butler and on to to Toledo? Would the purpose be to provide a connection between the LSL and CL there? Then the CL would arrive at a more marketable time in PGH and drop off through coach and sleeper service? I wanted to make sure I understood the strategy. If, and that is a big if, the Pennsylvainan is continued I would think combining it with the CL would be a good thing to do. But I can only assume that there would be hurdles, as there always are, when trying to make some major changes. I looked at the CL's timetable it seemed that the segment between Cleveland and South Bend was the most difficult area to schedule for if the CL's arrivals EB and WB were more customer friendly in PGH. arrival times were implemented.
Bill, Interesting idea. I had to get the atlas out to get the picture in my mind. It seems one issue is the redundancy of the LSL and CL between CHI and Cleveland. Is that correct? You would have the CL take a more SEasterly route out of CHI to Fort Wayne and then to Butler and on to to Toledo? Would the purpose be to provide a connection between the LSL and CL there? Then the CL would arrive at a more marketable time in PGH and drop off through coach and sleeper service? I wanted to make sure I understood the strategy. If, and that is a big if, the Pennsylvainan is continued I would think combining it with the CL would be a good thing to do. But I can only assume that there would be hurdles, as there always are, when trying to make some major changes.
I looked at the CL's timetable it seemed that the segment between Cleveland and South Bend was the most difficult area to schedule for if the CL's arrivals EB and WB were more customer friendly in PGH. arrival times were implemented.
The best solution might be to reroute the CL through Harrisburg and Philadelphia to DC as a single level train with a cross platform connection in Phila. Make the LSL a Superliner train to Boston with cross-platform connection at Rensselaer.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Good sense of humor John. Good humor is one of those things we need more of. Thanks.
Just for the record perhaps I should share why I chose "Iron Mountain" for my name. I don't think I have elaborated on this before. I am very interested in history in general, and the part railroads have played in our nation's development, specifically. Being that my roots are in SE, MO the Iron Mountain RR held a special interest for me. It was eventually absorbed by MO PAC. But at one time it served much of Missouri in the eastern southeastern and southern parts of the state. It had expanded into part of Illinois and Arkansas also. It was vital to agriculture, mineral mining (coal and iron) and timber. It was an important consideration as to civil war strategy in the area. The battle of Pilot Knob was, in part, an attempt to secure control of the RR by the confederates. Don't hold me to the specifics on dates but I believe that the Iron Mountain was an independent RR into the early part of the 20th century. Part of the RR's lore is the ballad of the "Iron Mountain Baby". It is a true story. Finally, there is an Iron Mountain Lake, Iron Mountain town, and a large iron mountain mining complex not too far from my house. So the name is simply an association and interest that I have in my geographical area, state's history, and family's history.
Whoops, I just realized that maybe I should have put in a different thread. Sorry if so. I am still somewhat of a neophyte as a blogger. I guess everyting has its protocols. Takes time to learn. And talking about feeling old. Much of the new communication technology is baffling to me.
The former PRR main through Fort Wayne is not what it used to be and that is one of the reasons that Amtrak moved off of that line in the 1990's. I believe that it currently falls somewhere between a glorified branch line and a secondary main, operated by G&W subsidiary Chicago, Ft. Wayne & Eastern.
Thanks for your answer. I would never be offended by anyone who intends to show respect. It's just that Mr. reminds me of how old I am.
John, I use(d) the title "Mr." to be respectful. If you are not comfortable with that that is OK with me. No offense intended. I think folks should be addressed as they wish. I have been addressed as "Mr. Mountain" and did not find it offensive at all. In fact, I found to be amusing. But, in any event, "John" it will be. And feel free to address me as you wish.
iron mountainAnd Mr. JWR I do not consider my comment in any way one of a derogatory nature. I am well aware of the ADA issues from both a professional perspective and a personal one.
As a personal practice I don't comment on the language other people use. Your language is your own. However, I deleted the section of my post with your words because it did look like it was Schlimm's words. I don't want to miss-represent anything that anyone else is saying.
Finally, I have one request. Please don't call me "Mr." John will do quite nicely. But I you insist on calling me "Mr." I shall have to start calling you "Mr. Mountain." Whether we agree or disagree I prefer to do it on a first name basis.
With best regards, John.
Mr. Mountain: The portion of your comment which I found derogatory in tone was not concerning the disabled. Not at all. I see my comment to JohnWR was unclear.. However, you implied that the reason Amtrak had to make provisions for the disabled was that it receives federal funds. That is not the reason. Any accommodation or transportation service, whether government funded or not, must comply with the ADA..
There is more to correct usage than merely looking up a definition in a dictionary. The use of the phrase "on the dole" is an idiom and is quite derogatory in American English usage. It means "receiving welfare money" according to the McGraw-Hill Dictionary of American idioms. The neutral term would be something along the lines of "receiving federal funding" or recipient of a governmental grant."
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Mr. Schlimm,
I must have hit a nerve. Don't know why or how. Let's clear things up. First a little edification from Webster: dole - 1. a giving out of money 2. that which is given out 3. anything given out sparingly 4. a form of payment by the government.
You made the point that the ADA covers all public accomodations. That was my point. Since Amtrak obviously is subject to the provsions of ADA it would have to comply. ???
Since it appeared that Mr. Dave K had a legitimate concern about the ease or difficulty of boarding the Pennsylvainan at PGH I thought that my comment was appropriate about Amtrak's responsibilities in light of their public status, which is directly linked to the money source.
And Mr. JWR I do not consider my comment in any way one of a derogatory nature. I am well aware of the ADA issues from both a professional perspective and a personal one.
Schlimm,
I apologize. I went back to my post and deleted the reference to you. John
John WR schlimmGood question. I would assume (bad idea?) that if one had a disabling condition that Amtrak would have to respond appropriately since they are on the federal dole. I know that at CHI people are shuttled back and forth by small vehicles and Red Caps are available and busy helping. I guess a call to Amtrak would be the only way to know for sure. Iron, Amtrak is committed to serving people with disabilities. Day coaches have handicapped rest rooms big enough for wheel chairs and wheel chair securements. Sleeping cars have accommodations for people who use wheel chairs. Staff members have all been trained in serving people with disabilities. However, throughout the Federal Government the number of people who perform direct customer service has been reduced to a bare bones minimum and finding the right person can be a problem. I would strongly suggest that anyone who requires special assistance (such as a ride in a motorized cart) should call or e mail ahead of time with the request so Amtrak will be notified in advance. That should be all that is needed but it does need to be done. John
schlimmGood question. I would assume (bad idea?) that if one had a disabling condition that Amtrak would have to respond appropriately since they are on the federal dole. I know that at CHI people are shuttled back and forth by small vehicles and Red Caps are available and busy helping. I guess a call to Amtrak would be the only way to know for sure.
Amtrak is committed to serving people with disabilities. Day coaches have handicapped rest rooms big enough for wheel chairs and wheel chair securements. Sleeping cars have accommodations for people who use wheel chairs. Staff members have all been trained in serving people with disabilities. However, throughout the Federal Government the number of people who perform direct customer service has been reduced to a bare bones minimum and finding the right person can be a problem. I would strongly suggest that anyone who requires special assistance (such as a ride in a motorized cart) should call or e mail ahead of time with the request so Amtrak will be notified in advance. That should be all that is needed but it does need to be done.
John: Can you please correctly attribute quotes? I did not say Amtrak was on the federal dole. It was iron mtn. who used that derogatory term in reference to people with disabilities. I corrected his misunderstanding.
I certainly don't classify you with the tea party. I have no idea what your politics are and no desire to find out. Certainly it is possible to discuss improving Amtrak in a non political way and you do.
Personally, I am not as much pro Amtrak as I am pro rail passenger service. While Amtrak is not the only game in town there is no other entity that does what Amtrak does. Amtrak isn't perfect but I would not get rid of it until something better comes along.
iron mountain Good question. I would assume (bad idea?) that if one had a disabling condition that Amtrak would have to respond appropriately since they are on the federal dole. I know that at CHI people are shuttled back and forth by small vehicles and Red Caps are available and busy helping. I guess a call to Amtrak would be the only way to know for sure.
Good question. I would assume (bad idea?) that if one had a disabling condition that Amtrak would have to respond appropriately since they are on the federal dole. I know that at CHI people are shuttled back and forth by small vehicles and Red Caps are available and busy helping. I guess a call to Amtrak would be the only way to know for sure.
It was never a problem for me, either, but what about an elderly person or one with a handicap? Or are wheelchairs available? I never had to change trains there but did use the station frequently on trips to and from Pittsburgh, often on the Steel City, if my memory is correct the overnight NY -Pittsburgh sleeper train.
DK, I am not sure what constitutes a difficult walk to the train for you. I thought that the off and on at PGH was quite easy. The longest trek that I have experienced is at CHI Union Station boarding the TE. But it is all enclosed in the train shed, eventhough it is dark and cold in the winter. If my memory is accurate, and it isn't always, the Pennsylvainan arrives and departs in the train shed. It was dark every time we arrived and departed PGH. I don't remember it being a long walk. But maybe that is a personal perception. I do a lot of walking as part of my fitness regimen. Three to four miles several times a week is usual for me. I don't remember if Red Caps are available or not.
Even with the station open and heated, isn't the walk between the station and the train a bit cold and even snowy and icy in bad weather?
Please do not make the error of classifying folks who want to improve Amtrak with the TP portion of the GOP who want to abolish Amtrak.
Bill,
I have a different perspective than you do. I think we are at a time in our history when there is a very determined anti government movement. The movement has captured the Republican party and moved it far to the right of where it was from the beginning to the middle 1960's. Traditional Republicans are not called RINOs -- Republicans in Name Only. Yet they are the Republicans in the tradition of Abe Lincoln.
This new movement sees government in general as bad and anything that can be done to reduce government as good. One way of reducing government is by hacking away at it any way you can. This explains the attacks on Sen. Hagel, on Obamacare and on Amtrak. I'm sure the country will survive. I'm not sure about Amtrak.
With best regards, John
This new movement sees government in general as bad and anything that can be done to reduce government as good. One way of reducing government is by hacking away at it any way you can. This explains the attacks on Sen. Hegel, on Obamacare and on Amtrak. I'm sure the country will survive. I'm not sure about Amtrak.
If attempts to save the PENNSYLVANIAN focus on the status quo then yes it could face a rough road. My suggestion on acting on the PRIIA 2010 study focuses on more than just adding a thru sleeper (one of the NY-CHI cars from the LSL) and long distance coach on/off at Pittsburgh but tweaking the CAPITOLS' schedule.
Both the LSL and CL share a common route between Chicago and Cleveland. However east of Cleveland with the exception of train 49 at Erie all the major cities have convenient train times on the LSL. East of Cleveland on the CL Pittsburgh being the only major city has only a decent train time on # 29. The connecting cities on the PENNSYLVANIAN have decent train times but only after 2.5 to 3.5 hour layover in Pittsburgh. No surprise then that the LSL ridership is approximately 80+% higher than the CL. My tweaking is two fold.
First, the schedule should be adjusted so that the CL arrives EB & WB in Pittsburgh closer to the current train times of the PENNSYLVANIAN. #29 would depart DC at 1PM affording riders more daylight time to enjoy the scenic highlights as listed in the timetable. #30 would depart Pittsburgh between 7-7:30 am.
Second, the CL should be re-routed between Butler, IN and Chicago via Fort Wayne over ex-Wabash and ex-NKP trackage with a stop in Valpariso. The Chicago train times would depend on the running time over this line. EB # 48 would be the first train out of Chicago so that passengers out of South Bend, Elkhart and Waterloo could connect with #30 in Toledo. WB #29 would get to Chicago first so that passengers to those three cities could make connections at Toledo with # 49.
Thru service to Harrisburg, Philadelphia, New Jersey and NYC should boost ridership while maintaining the favorable schedule in Pennsylvania.
Here's hoping!
PS. From everything I hear the Pennsylvanian is a lost cause. I can only wish it were not so.
I agree that Amtrak did the right thing at 30th Street Station. I guess there are just too many stations to restore all of them. I come from Providence. Amtrak build a new station there. Outside isn't very impressive--just a squat mound of concrete with a clock tower--but inside is decent. A big enough waiting room with a good news stand and also a coffee shop. It is much smaller than the old station but it is big enough for Providence.
The closest I've gotten to Pittsburgh is Bear Run to visit Edgar and Lilianne Kaufman's weekend home better known as Frank Lloyd Wright's Falling Water. Unfortunately, the only way we found to get there is to drive.
John,
The eastbound layover isn't bad. As I mentioned earlier it was in December. We left the station and found a Starbucks in one of the biggest buildings in the downtown. It was just a few blocks from the station. And as I mentioned before, there was a surprisingly beautiful and elaborate outdoor Christmas display. Angels, Holy Family and so forth. The layover did not seem to be too long. It might have been because of the novelty of being first timers in PGH.
The westbound trip layover was a lot longer. I made reservations at a downtown restaurant that was near the city's ballet hall. I think that Swan Lake was performing that night. We did manage to get a cab. I have found that smaller cities like PGH and STL are not easy to get cabs in especially after a certain hour. Exercise caution. Chicago and Philly are much easier to get around in. Anyway we had dinner. It was OK. Not that great for the money. It killed some time. The Capitol doesn't arrive until midnight (the Pennsylvanian gets in at 8PM. But the Cap was real late and we were really tired.
As to the station it is a mere vestage of its former self. It is typical Amtrak. The waiting room is in what looks like it was once a baggage handling area. Like a basement. There is a long escalator/starway up to the train shed. Easy train off and on. Few amenities in the station. Chairs, tv's, and a few vending machines. There is a baggage check and ticket agents. They were helpful and friendly. I explored outside and found the part of the station that was the original Pennsy station. The great hall is off limits. Now it looks to be a fairly upscale office and condo arangement. I looked at the interior through a window. The original entry way for passenger drop off was a large vaulted dome with plaques for the four cities served on each pillar. I think that the cities included, Philadelphia, Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland or maybe it was St. Louis. At one time it must have been quite a beauty. At least the wrecking ball crowd haven't got to it yet.
The station seemed to have lots of passengers. My two trips on the Pennsylvanian it appeared as if the train was well patronized. Interesting scenery. I hate to hear that it may get canceled. I know that some others have talked about a through sleeper and coach on the Capitol for the Pennsylvanian. It would certainly make the trip more comfortable. The last time we caught the train in Lancaster and went to Philly then to DC and then back to Chicago on the Capitol. Longer and more expensive but more pleasant than sitting for hours in the PGH station. 30th Street Station has a very nice lounge for sleeper passengers.
iron mountainWe have made that trip twice and, to the best of my knowledge, the Pittsburgh station was always open. Has something changed?
I've never been to Pittsburgh. Dave mentioned that changing trains could be a health hazard but I guess that is not a problem for a man of iron. You make me want to visit and stop in Pittsburgh for an early breakast before I get on the Pennsylvanian to Newark. I guess I better go while there is still time.
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