In the current Trains Karl Zimmermann in Ageless Grand Central Kicks Off Its Second Century reminds us that most of the New Haven's named trains (such as the "Merchants Limited" and the "Yankee Clipper)" ran between New York and Boston. One change Amtrak made is that almost all northeast corridor trains rum from Boston to Washington and a number run beyond Washington. Of course the Pennsylvania ran its own New York and Washington Service. An advantage Amtrak gives us is that it is never necessary to change stations in New York. (Does those red and green lights at Times Square that lead you to the Grand Central Shuttle still exist?)
No doubt never having to change stations is an improvement; yet it seems to me that reaching the Shore Line from Grand Central Terminal was faster than the route from Pennsylvania Station over the Hell Gate Bridge, even when I am lucky and the bridge is closed to ships. I wonder if there is any possible way to have a direct connection between NYP and GCT. Does anyone know if this could be accomplished?
Oh, there has been talk of this for years...The main problem that (didn't) surfaced over the years was all the tunnels for subways, sewers, water, telephone, electricity, heat, and whatever else meant that either they would have to be altered, moved. or blocked (based on what they know existed, or knew existed, or what they feared existed but a lot of what they have no idea exists!) and the number of deep cellars and foundations of skyscrapers which can be up to a third the height of the building, so the line would have to go so much deeper than the distance would actually allow.
As for how long it took from the city to New Rochelle where the line from GCT met the line from NYP, it is 16.3 miles from GCT AND 18.8 miles from NYP. Hell Gate bridge itself is not movable but the Pelham Bridge is and is about 3 and a half miles east of Hell Gate.
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henry6As for how long it took from the city to New Rochelle where the line from GCT met the line from NYP, it is 16.3 miles from GCT AND 18.8 miles from NYP. Hell Gate bridge itself is not movable but the Pelham Bridge is and is about 3 and a half miles east of Hell Gate.
So I guess I'll have to accept that fact that I'll never again board an Amtrak train to New England at GCT. I'll have to find another reason to go there.
As long as the Hell Gate Bridge remains closed I'll try not to complain.
Don't be too sure....I just noted on a post that the only thing constant in railroading are the gauge of the track and red means stop. You can go from GCT to Stamford, Bridgeport or New Haven on MNRR and change to Amtrak at those stations on select trains.
As for a reason to go to GCT! Why do you need a reason? It is a destination building in itself. Plus on Feb 1st this year, the eve of the building's 100 Anniversary, there is a special ceremony and rededication with many special days and events in celebration throughout the year. But there really is so much to the building to view and marvel at in the architecture and composition itself, the MTA museum, great and not so great places to eat.
And you can join us for one of the Ridewithmehenry trips we'll be taking out of there. Right now I'd like to schedule a Sat. Feb 2nd trip in celebration of the 200th Anniversary date. Probably via NJT from Denville to NYP, subway to GCT and up the Harlem Div to Wassaic and back. I've got several reasons for that particular trip which was seminal in my Ridewithmehenry activity because of an aunt who had a farm near Wingdale and my wife's great grandfather being the construction engineer from Dover Plains to Chatham!
henry6Right now I'd like to schedule a Sat. Feb 2nd trip in celebration of the 200th Anniversary date. Pro
Actually, I was in GCT in November, Henry. There was an exhibition of Winston Churchill's writing at the Morgan Library which is on Madison Avenue and 36th Street, just a few blocks away. My first impression was that this is a food court, not a railroad station. Then I went upstairs and saw that it is pretty much the same as always but of course much improved. I remember when it sank so low than when there were problems with doors instead of repairing the door they simply bolted a board over it to people could not use it.
Right now I am booked up for February 2 but if something happens I'll keep your opportunity in mind.
Are the rail levels at GCT and Penn Station at or near the same grade levels? Would a tunnel between the two be roughly level or would there be a severe grade involved (if all the other Utilities & Subways and any other underground impediments to a tunnel be removed).
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Are the rail levels at GCT and Penn Station at or near the same grade levels? Would a tunnel between the two be roughly level or would there be a severe grade involved (if all the other Utilities & Subways and any other underground impediments to a tunnel be removed).
Subways, water mains, power lines, telephone lines, sewers, steam pipes, and skyscraper cellars equal to up to a third of the height above ground. Any connection between the two stations would have to negotiate all that plus a few surprises and do it at such a grade down and under and up that it would be impossible in the short distance. Just try to remove one subway line. Or electric. Or telephone. Not worth the fight or the engineering expense much less the actual construction. There are also pockets of quick sand and lots of bed rock.
Grand Central Terminal has two levels of tracks, both underground but it does not use any tunnels in Manhattan. Pennsylvania Station has one level of underground tracks and two tunnels, one under the Hudson River and one under the East River. (The Hudson River Tunnel has two bores; I'm not sure about the East River Tunnel.) At one point there was a lot of discussion of this in the newspapers. There are a lot of things in the way of any tunnel but I don't recall any change of grade problems being reported. That is all of the rather sketchy information I have.
Two bores under the North River, four bores under the East River. But the depth needed to get between the two stations has often been discussed and was especially so mentioned when the tunnel project Christie killed was being debated. The more time goes on the more difficult it becomes to deal with the concept. There would have to be so much digging and exploding and shoring up and shielding...I bet if you started today the final lawsuit allowing you to proceed won't be settled until 2125!
henry6 But the depth needed to get between the two stations has often been discussed and was especially so mentioned when the tunnel project Christie killed was being debated.
The tunnel project Christie killed did not include a connection to GCT. It didn't even connect with the tracks in NYP. Some otherwise supportive people were cool to it because of the second feature. They envisioned the day when you could get on an NJT train and have a one seat ride as far as New Haven.
Even with its limitations a lot of people were stunned when the project was cancelled and still believe canceling it was a big mistake. Christie argued that New Jersey would be liable for all cost over runs. It later turned out New Jersey would have been liable for about 14 per cent of cost over runs at most and even that amount would have been negotiable.
My point was that a GCT-NYP connection was discussed at that time as it has been for many years every time tunneling from NJ has been mentioned.
henry6 BaltACD Are the rail levels at GCT and Penn Station at or near the same grade levels? Would a tunnel between the two be roughly level or would there be a severe grade involved (if all the other Utilities & Subways and any other underground impediments to a tunnel be removed). Subways, water mains, power lines, telephone lines, sewers, steam pipes, and skyscraper cellars equal to up to a third of the height above ground. Any connection between the two stations would have to negotiate all that plus a few surprises and do it at such a grade down and under and up that it would be impossible in the short distance. Just try to remove one subway line. Or electric. Or telephone. Not worth the fight or the engineering expense much less the actual construction. There are also pockets of quick sand and lots of bed rock.
Johnny
henry6My point was that a GCT-NYP connection was discussed at that time as it has been for many years every time tunneling from NJ has been mentioned.
It seems to me that the real problem lies with the New York Central and Hudson River Railroads who were unwilling to link up. To its credit the Pennsylvania did arrange to link up with the New Haven via the Hell Gate Bridge. That link still works well as long as the bridge is closed when your train approaches. I don't know if the Pennsy would have been willing to link to the NYC given the relations between them but they did show good faith toward the New Haven.
PS. Henry,
I think we should build an underground rail connection between the two stations. And I think we should fund it by requiring you to live in the concourses of the two stations collecting money from travelers until you have collected enough money to fund the whole project.
John
At my age, John, there isn't enough time left to collect all the money needed for the project, even a $100 per throw!
With your commitment to rail transportation, Henry, I am confident you would be able to do it. And when it was all done and the tunnel built we would pull down Cornelius Vanderbilt's statue and replace it with a statue of Henry.
henry6 ... As for how long it took from the city to New Rochelle where the line from GCT met the line from NYP, it is 16.3 miles from GCT AND 18.8 miles from NYP. Hell Gate bridge itself is not movable but the Pelham Bridge is and is about 3 and a half miles east of Hell Gate.
...
The line from GCT also has a draw bridge at the Harlem River, so either way you could be waiting on a boat.
I used the New Haven line at least 400 times between 1949 and 1996, and never once was held up by a boat either on the line to GCT or the Hell Gate route. It must happen very rarely. Waiting for traffic outside New Rochelle did happen on occasion, and a few times southbound at Mott Haven, where I could see the northbound Hudson Div train cutting across in front of us.
The M5 bus is a direct connection. Works well when there is no rush hour traffic.
John WR Grand Central Terminal There are a lot of things in the way of any tunnel but I don't recall any change of grade problems being reported.
Grand Central Terminal There are a lot of things in the way of any tunnel but I don't recall any change of grade problems being reported.
Isn't the problem of any RR tunnel Penn station - Grand Central going to be held up until the new water tunnel is complete ? ( around 2022 ? ) My understanding is New York city officials thinks that any construction near the old water tunnel might cause it to collaspe ?
daveklepperhe M5 bus is a direct connection. Works well when there is no rush hour traffic.
I can't match your 400 times record but in the late 50's and 60's I changed stations many times, occasionally walking and usually by subway. But I never knew about the M5 bus. Thanks for the information.
With the billions spent on the connection between Sunnyside and GCT, I doubt they are in the mood for spending on a GCT-NYP connection. When LIRR starts sending some trains to GCT, it may free up capacity in the East River tunnels so that some New Haven line commuter trains could use NYP, or maybe Trenton-New Haven commuter runs. Their new priorities are hardening the rail and transit infrastructure against the next storm serge. After that NYT might finally construct rapid transit to LaGuardia Airport. ATK's next plan is to add 2 tunnels under the Hudson even without NJ's help.
While ATK's routes in the NY area are already connected, there is a gap between Boston's North and South stations. A connection between the two would not only connect the Maine service to the rest of the system, but might also spur a route to Concord, NH. Boston's commuter agency might also benefit if they could reconstruct North Station into a smaller thru station, like Phily did with the Reading Terminal. Of course the big cost over-runs with the Big Dig highway connector project probably poisoned any thought of doing this for a while.
Yes, Boston and all of New England would benefit the North Sta/South Sta connection. As for NYP and GCT...your comments allude to the idea that it might not be as necessary as once way...and you may be right. With less LIRR traffic at NYP there could some slots freed up for more NJT and some MNRR/CONDOT trains. And my often touted Philadelphia (or west of) to New Haven regional one seat (at best) or one ticket (at least) ride. Or to Jamaica or Montauk, or Danbury. Or from them to Poughkeepsie. Haven't done the market research needed to prove the need, but the other side of the coin could be better use of equipment instead of deadheading and storing all day.
To my mind this is not a personal problem but it does seem awkward to get from Amtrak to an MTA train serving MTA stations Amtrak does not stop at. Can you change at New Rochelle for all of them? Or do you need to take a ride on the M5 bus (as I recently learned) to get to grand central.
Also, Amtrak trains do not stop at Secaucus so changing to NJT trains requires some thought. For the Northeast Corridor a raider can change at Trenton or Newark, whichever is more convenient and some Amtrak trains stop at intermediate stations. But what is the best way to transfer to the Morris and Essex or Boonton line? I imagine it is to get off at Newark Penn and take the Lightrail to Broad Street Station. But what if you want to change to the Main or Bergen County lines? Actually there used to be a bus from downtown Newark that connected with Kingsland and Rutherford stations and that was the best way. I used that but to do it. Now, however, I cannot find it.
Trenton, Newark, and Penn Sta are the best Amtrak to NJT trains and vice versa...but, yes, it might mean changing trains twice...Go to NYP and backtrack NJT to Secaucus for ex Erie Lines, or NYP on M&E trains, Long Branch/Bay Head, or to RVL connection at Newark Penn. Newark Penn is good from Amtrak for all Newark Div. trains or to Sec. Jct. for all Hoboken Div. trains. It really isn't that much of a hassle.
For Morris and Essex and Montclair-Boonton trains I think the Newark Lightrail section between Newark Penn and Broad Street Station is acceptable and I would use it although it runs only every half hour.
If I were coming up from the south I would change at Newark Penn to NJT and get off at Secaucus to change to a Port Jervis train.
But I'm not sure. Do all Main and Bergen County Line trains stop at Secaucus?
John...I have made and done all the connections we are talking about. None of them are really difficult to do...but one has to know how to read and interpret timetables side by side. NJT -- and even LIRR and MNRR--claim to do that for you through their website programs but don't. I would say that 95% of my ridewithmehenry trips have been plotted by me guided by the NJT and other's websites, but not always totally followed. For instance, often NJT will give you a Morris line train to Sec. Jct. to catch a Trenton or Bay Head train...but I find that I can save a half hour or hour by using the Newark Light Rail. On LIRR, in the City area, one can use bus or subway to link from one line to another instead of returning to Jamaica...even Patchogue to Ronkonkoma can be bused! But one has to understand timetables and have knowledge of what else is there and how to map it all out. Too often people have been taught to do just what is on the printed page of a public schedule. But I learned from my grandfather who grew up with the subways and showed me how to get around interchanging and changing trains and modes.
I appreciate and completely agree with your preference for the Newark Light Rail which runs right into Newark Penn Station. I've used it many times myself. But I live only a few miles from the Grove Street Station. If I am on the bus I find the best way is to change at Bloomfield Avenue and avoid the hike along Grove Street unless I want to stop at Dunkin Donuts for coffee and a bagel.
But for you, coming from Binghamton, the Lightrail is a long way. I would think you would be better off on M&E.
No..use the M&E to Newark Broad then light rail to Penn rather than M&E to Sec. Jct., wait up to an hour for a train to Bay Head, Trenton, or High Bridge.
henry6No..use the M&E to Newark Broad then light rail to Penn rather than M&E to Sec. Jct., wait up to an hour for a train to Bay Head, Trenton, or High Bridge.
I understand your logic.
1. Broad Street to Secaucus is 12 minutes so you save that 12 minutes getting of at Broad Street.
2. Secaucus to Newark is about the same (I don't have the exact amount of time) but you gain about 12 more minutes getting the train at Newark Penn rather than Secaucus.
So you are more likely to get an earlier train going that route.
Especially on a week end, if you are really familiar with the schedules you may save a few more minutes by catching a bus that goes to Newark Penn if it comes before the Lightrail car leaves. Both bus and Lightrail have a scheduled time of 8 minutes. The bus can take a lot longer but on a weekend it shouldn't.
What it is all about is making connections to keep moving or to get someplace quickly. Coming down the M&E and going to Sec. Jct. for a Bay Head or Trenton train could be up to 55 or more minute layover while taking the light rail from Broad to Penn could make a 10 or 15 minute connection and you are an hour ahead. Both connections are priced the same if you get a single ride ticket: cost the same and is marked for NLR--Newark Light Rail. Again, it is a matter of knowing how to not just read timetables, but how to use them for your advantage...
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