Exactly, Sam, it is included in the ticket price. But the handicapped who benefit from the expensive hard-of-hearing systme in my theatre and the services of the sound system operator that has to be paid are subsidized by the ticket holders who have no nead of this service. Diitto the handicapped provisions.
In nearly all democratic societies, couples with many children pay less taxes than those with no children. Children get free education, paid f or by trax payers.
Education is important, and is funded by tax money. I happen to think long distance rail service is also important, even as part of education. Not as important as education, but mobility of the handicapped and elderly for the enitre country is important to me, if not for you.
When you use an elevator in an apartment house, store, or office building, you are getting absolutely free transportation. There is a difference in direction and scale, but it is sitll transportation!
Lets face it, Sam1, today's big business and its managment does not appear to be anything but greedy with a wont to run ramshod over the American public disavowing laws and regulations. They cut jobs while eliminating or downsizing products and services or reduce quality. At the same time they appear to take more money and perks for themselves. In the banking, investing, insurance sector, they continue the practice and procedures that brought us down in 2008. I will give you the point about railroad executives who have steered their idle time and excess dollars into improving their intrastructure and increase their inventory of locomotiives and equipment to ready for the return and upturn of business. But they appear to be the exception to the rule. CP presents a yellow flag where investors has overturned management because of poor performance and return. Whether this will present opportunities for increased productivity, efficiencey, and profits without dismantling of the property and dismissal of huge numbers of employees is yet to be seen.
Basically, the appearence of greed and disregard from the CEO's and companies which led us into the recession has tainted the air and made many of us suspicious of all. When we see a turnaround in their behavior and of our fate, then we may stop generalizing and pick on the offenders singely and by name.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
schlimm henry6: I'll even toss the first volley: American businesses have not proven they can be trusted...every time we deregulate something, or turn our heads on oversight, we meet economic chaos and near disasters. Couldn't have been said any clearer by Joseph Stiglitz in Freefall.
henry6: I'll even toss the first volley: American businesses have not proven they can be trusted...every time we deregulate something, or turn our heads on oversight, we meet economic chaos and near disasters.
I'll even toss the first volley: American businesses have not proven they can be trusted...every time we deregulate something, or turn our heads on oversight, we meet economic chaos and near disasters.
Couldn't have been said any clearer by Joseph Stiglitz in Freefall.
Quite a sweeping generalization. In 2008 there were 5,847,221 corporations in the United States. Most of them were S Chapter corporations. Of that number 3,183,821 had reportable taxable income as per the IRS. It must take a super coordinated effort by the heads of the nation's businesses to show that they cannot be trusted.
Are you lumping the heads of the nation's railroads, including Amtrak, amongst those who cannot be trusted or are you giving them a pass?
henry6 I'll even toss the first volley: American businesses have not proven they can be trusted...every time we deregulate something, or turn our heads on oversight, we meet economic chaos and near disasters.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I think that bridge and tunnel money, Blue Streak, is to be sunk in the NJ Meadows for replacing two tracked, century old Portal Bridge and add two bores under the Hudson. That's the politics of Amtrak. This is not money for Amtrak but for NJ and NY who need to get employees and tourists in and out of the city as well as keeping an open track between Times Square and Union Station in Washington.
But Sam, this arguement of one paying for what he uses or not paying for what he doesn't use has been around and has been circled with government programs and business and government partnerships so much, that it won't go away here...we will kill each other...really, we will, there will be read bloodshed and murder here...if the same were to be tried here as in Austrailia. I'll even toss the first volley: American businesses have not proven they can be trusted...every time we deregulate something, or turn our heads on oversight, we meet economic chaos and near disasters. And niether the business men nor the politicians nor the people learn so we keep repeating our mistakes and misfortunes without addressing what causes them.
daveklepper Sam keeps repeating that if people use a service, they should pay for it. Sam, if I remodel an old defunct theatre, I am obligated to install all kinds of measures, special elevators, ramps, hard of hearing devices, just so handicapped, blind, deaf, and elderly people can enjoy the shows I present/ All this investment, and some matters also involve operating costs, does not bring in near the income this necessary compliance with the Dissabled etc. acts require of me. So I am forced, even though I paid for the threatre and own it, to subsidize these deaf, blind, handicapped, and elderly people. The American people have decided that is fair. Just like long distance trains for the same population and internal tourism. Now, Great Britain went the bidding process of specific routes route . The results have been generally better service in most cases, but worse in some and some loss of connectivity, but a huge increase in subsidy costs, even acounting for inflation. Why? Because of loss of economies of scale. The British readers of this thread can verify my comment.
Sam keeps repeating that if people use a service, they should pay for it.
Sam, if I remodel an old defunct theatre, I am obligated to install all kinds of measures, special elevators, ramps, hard of hearing devices, just so handicapped, blind, deaf, and elderly people can enjoy the shows I present/ All this investment, and some matters also involve operating costs, does not bring in near the income this necessary compliance with the Dissabled etc. acts require of me. So I am forced, even though I paid for the threatre and own it, to subsidize these deaf, blind, handicapped, and elderly people. The American people have decided that is fair.
Just like long distance trains for the same population and internal tourism.
Now, Great Britain went the bidding process of specific routes route . The results have been generally better service in most cases, but worse in some and some loss of connectivity, but a huge increase in subsidy costs, even acounting for inflation. Why? Because of loss of economies of scale.
The British readers of this thread can verify my comment.
The owners of Dell Diamond, which is located in Round Rock, TX and is the home field for the Round Rock Express, which is the Texas Rangers AAA minor league baseball team, must comply with a variety of safety and ADA regulations. At the end of the day, however, the patrons pay for these requirements. The cost is embedded in the ticket price. The taxpayers do not pick-up the tab.
To the extent that the true cost of a service is not reflected in the price paid by the customer, i.e. ticket price, fuel taxes, user fees, etc., the users are not fully aware of the cost of their choices and, therefore, may over use or under use a service, product, commodity, etc. One of the best examples of this is found in the price of gasoline in the United States, which does not reflect the true cost of driving, e.g. cost of local streets, county roads, etc. As a result Americans have tended to buy large, gas guzzling SUVs and pick-ups. If the true price of driving were reflected in the price paid at the pump, they may have chosen more fuel efficient vehicles. For this reason I have argued that each mode of transport should stand on its own feet, i.e. no subsidies, with the possible exception of low cost, government loans to develop infrastructure that would be paid back by the users. This would mean, of course, that outside of a few high density corridors passenger rail probably would be dead in the water.
I don't buy your argument that the taxpayer has an obligation to support long distance trains because they promote tourism, which is a dubious assertion, or to provide transport options for the disabled. If this argument had merit, then the United States should offer passenger rail service to every community in the United States with a population of 25,000 or more, which is out of the question. The country, which has a combined national, state, and local debt in excess of $19 trillion, could not afford it.
Properly regulated, competitive markets will always trump government run commercial enterprises. Why wouldn't they. Government enterprises, which are usually monopolies, have little incentive to do things better, faster, cheaper. The operative word is better.
In 1990 most major businesses in Australia were owned by the government or very tightly regulated. Included in this model were the nation's airlines, railways, banks, telecommunication companies, electric utilities, etc. Then the Australians decided to go for more open, competitive, properly regulated markets. They privatized a slew of commercial activities. Today, as a result, along with some good luck, Australia has one of the most vibrant economies of any OECD country. Far more than the U.S. economy.
By now it is no secret that I believe markets are a better vehicle for the allocation of scarce economic resources.And that includes passenger rail. If it cannot stand on its own, it should be allow to wither. Having said that, if all transport subsidies were eliminated, passenger rail probably could survice in relatively short, high density corridors. But the operators would have to be allowed to implement modern work practices, up to date technologies, and relevant marketing strategies. As noted in a previous post, a group of Italian business persons are giving it a go. I hope that they succeed.
henry6 In many respects Joe Boardman has had much success bieng president of Amtrak if only because he has been able to weave in and out of the political maze. It's like Kenny Roger's song, The Gmbler: you've got to know when to hold up, know when to fold up, There may have been better railroaders or businessmen in the seat before, but none of them have lasted and been able to have as broad or general accomplishment than Boardman, all have been narrow achievements, althought important in their own rway.
In many respects Joe Boardman has had much success bieng president of Amtrak if only because he has been able to weave in and out of the political maze. It's like Kenny Roger's song, The Gmbler: you've got to know when to hold up, know when to fold up, There may have been better railroaders or businessmen in the seat before, but none of them have lasted and been able to have as broad or general accomplishment than Boardman, all have been narrow achievements, althought important in their own rway.
Henry; you have hit the nail on the head. just now Congress in its infinite wisdom cut the AMTRAK operating budget exactly the amount that they saved from the year before. Now what incentative does that give management to become more efficient?
One strange reported item that I haven't been able to confirm yet is that the house appropriated a $500 M item for bridge and tunnel repairs on top of the operating budget ? That seems to this poster that Congress is still not decided on AMTRAK.
Another point Dave, is that even if I don't use a service but should (and do) pay for it through taxes or whatever is alright because I get a benefit in that perhaps point E to M in that system moves a certain item in the manufacture of cars or food or whatever and I can buy that product because of teh transportation. Or by taking automobiles off the road, it makes it easier for truckers to get through. We don't seem to be able to accept universal or social benifits from something. I don't fly. But my county pays huge amounts of money to pay for an airport comlex and its employees. But businesses benefit from air freight in and out, their management and sales staffs able to travel, and their customers even can visit or sales people can come in. So the business can operate, thrive, employ people and pay taxes.
I guess what I am saying is that you really can't draw a line or maybe that you have to draw a line, to figure out who benefits and who doesn't But then what would that tell you, what would that decided?
KRTrveler: You are right about the bulk of the rail community...and the US...is stuck in its old ways. Cars move people, trains move goods, bankers move money, congress moves slow or not at all. With Amtrak being an toy of Congerss, the railroad gets a different signal with each session, and a different book of rules with each Congress. In many respects Joe Boardman has had much success bieng president of Amtrak if only because he has been able to weave in and out of the political maze. Boardman came up through the goverenment/public service side of the game rather than through the business or even railroad ranks. He started as bus and trasnsportaiton managers to NYS DOT head to the FRA and then to Amtrak...so he has been able to last because he knows the political maze and how to maneuver through it rather than try to knock down the walls to go in a straight line. He has made achievements for Amtrak that other's haven't. It's like Kenny Roger's song, The Gmbler: you've got to know when to hold up, know when to fold up, There may have been better railroaders or businessmen in the seat before, but none of them have lasted and been able to have as broad or general accomplishment than Boardman, all have been narrow achievements, althought important in their own rway.
Sir Madog I don´t know what´s ahead for AMTRAK - any idea on that is somehow like looking into a crystal ball. As long as AMTRAK´s mandate is to provide some sort of long distance passenger rail service, it will just do that, within the budgetary framework assigned by Congress. We all know that this is no way to properly in a railroad, let alone to develop it into a modern passenger carrier. To do that, AMTRAK would require a different mandate, different organization, maybe different management, but also different funding.
I don´t know what´s ahead for AMTRAK - any idea on that is somehow like looking into a crystal ball. As long as AMTRAK´s mandate is to provide some sort of long distance passenger rail service, it will just do that, within the budgetary framework assigned by Congress.
We all know that this is no way to properly in a railroad, let alone to develop it into a modern passenger carrier. To do that, AMTRAK would require a different mandate, different organization, maybe different management, but also different funding.
BINGO! That's what a lot of us have been saying for decades!!!
What I got out of the cover story is that
1) Boardman had the chance to shine but he dropped the ball on two issues:
a) He let Union Pacific get away with extortion, plain and simple. How do you let the railroad toss a $1 billion claim without challenging it to the STB? Also, if what the sources said about Paul Vilter’s efforts to challenge UP’s data are spot on, then, it is Boardman’s fault that he was not allowed to.
b) How can anyone defend Boardman’s unwillingness to convert the last triweekly Eastern train to daily status? After CSX gave Amtrak the silent treatment on this simple task, CSX inaction was one-upped by Amtrak inaction. Inexcusable!
2) with these quotes…
Sam1 If I were Boardman, Mr. Frailey would not be welcome at the corporate headquarters or anywhere else on the property.
If I were Boardman, Mr. Frailey would not be welcome at the corporate headquarters or anywhere else on the property.
dakotafred Amtrak has neither the political power to abandon the long-distance routes (as some here advocate) nor the money to increase frequencies over the routes and provide a real "service" (as others want). I suppose it could shed the sleepers and go back to sandwiches and plastic in the dining cars, but then you're running buses on rails and still losing money, if not quite so much. This being an imperfect world -- "What the heck, I'll take it anyway," as Hobbes said to Calvin, in the comic strip -- I'll take Amtrak as it is, warts and all. Its cost? Give me a break. Washington spills more than that 365 days of the year -- before noon.
Amtrak has neither the political power to abandon the long-distance routes (as some here advocate) nor the money to increase frequencies over the routes and provide a real "service" (as others want). I suppose it could shed the sleepers and go back to sandwiches and plastic in the dining cars, but then you're running buses on rails and still losing money, if not quite so much.
This being an imperfect world -- "What the heck, I'll take it anyway," as Hobbes said to Calvin, in the comic strip -- I'll take Amtrak as it is, warts and all. Its cost? Give me a break. Washington spills more than that 365 days of the year -- before noon.
…it’s quite apparent to me that the bulk of the rail community is stuck in its old ways. As passenger rail moves from merely surviving to having to deal with possible competition, advocates are still blindly defending much of what Amtrak is doing—even if it’s outdated or promotes the company’s continued mediocrity when it should be developing a long-term plan that involves real expansion as a way to combat other companies targeting Amtrak routes.
We all know that this is no way to properly run a railroad, let alone to develop it into a modern passenger carrier. To do that, AMTRAK would require a different mandate, different organization, maybe different management, but also different funding.
SantaFeJoe Just in the North And South Dakota, Montana north Idaho and extending into Canada there is a vast oil reserve which calculated at current consumption is large enough to last us 700 years!!!! We have more oil than all of the arab states combined. In addition oil is a renewable resource!!!!!!!! Many of the oil wells that were thought to have been pumped dry have new crude in them. We are awash in oil. It is a great fuel and hundreds of years of resources that can be potentially be used. In that time I am sure we can find alternatives BUT we derive so many benefits from oil that contribute so much to our way of life. Trains lead the way in using continually more fuel efficient engines. We have all kinds of technology that make exhaust emissions almost minimal. ...
Just in the North And South Dakota, Montana north Idaho and extending into Canada there is a vast oil reserve which calculated at current consumption is large enough to last us 700 years!!!! We have more oil than all of the arab states combined. In addition oil is a renewable resource!!!!!!!! Many of the oil wells that were thought to have been pumped dry have new crude in them. We are awash in oil. It is a great fuel and hundreds of years of resources that can be potentially be used. In that time I am sure we can find alternatives BUT we derive so many benefits from oil that contribute so much to our way of life. Trains lead the way in using continually more fuel efficient engines. We have all kinds of technology that make exhaust emissions almost minimal. ...
The Bakken oil reservoir is indeed a giant field and may someday surpass the Prudhoe Bay, Alaska field. It's size and accessibility seems to have brought out a lot fortune seekers. The reserves guesstimated at 100s of years of use have been making the rounds on the internet for a few years. The consensus of some of the larger drillers, of recoverable reserves, is about 20 billion barrels.
http://www.worldoil.com/May-2012-Bakken-Three-Forks-Infrastructure-takeaway-woes-only-threats-to-high-activity.html
Present US consumption is about 19 million barrels per day.
http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=oil_home#tab2
That works to a little over a 1000 days, or about 3 years worth of US consumption. Even if technology allows twice the amount of reserves to be produced, that still would be only about 1/100 th of the 700 year claim.
As a geologist with decades of experience in Oil & Gas, I wanted to say few things about wells being pumped "dry": When a successful well is first drilled, oil may produce at a fast rate. But as pressure is depleted and the oil must travel further thru the porous rock toward the wellbore, production drops off until the rate is so slow, it becomes uneconomical to produce (rather than being totally dry.) If the well is shut in for years, formation water pressure will continue to push some of the remaining oil toward the wellbore. If the well is reopened, production may recover for a time, but will soon go back to the slow rate. This is not new oil, but just what was left of the old. Oil fields take millions of years to naturally develop, and can not be considered a renewable resource.
But like you say, passenger diesel use the fuel efficiently, and being that there are so few passenger trains, they are not a big drain on the reserves that we do have.
Don...check out the history of Amtrak...it was created by Congress with the public idea of alleviating freight railroads the burden of providing passenger service, It set up a format of political appointments and congressional favorite routes. It was called upon to make a profit. But the real problem was that short term planning and funding from an ever politically chaning Congress did not allow for proper administrating and operating. It has not evolved as much as it has exisited from hand to mouth, day to day. Airline executive, business entrapeneurs, railroaders, and politicians and political administrators have all had turns at the helm...but they have not had full reign becausef of Congressional and political restraints.
henry6 Don, how and why do you thing Amtrak got to be what it is today? Congress has them on a bungee cord or yo-yo and plays with the funding. It will not allow for normal business long term planning and funding. Amtrak does what it can from one Congressional session to the next..
Don, how and why do you thing Amtrak got to be what it is today? Congress has them on a bungee cord or yo-yo and plays with the funding. It will not allow for normal business long term planning and funding. Amtrak does what it can from one Congressional session to the next..
I think in large measure, they were maneuvered into the position they now occupy by Congress. But, to a very large degree, they did little to keep from getting there. In fact, they seem to gone willingly hand - in - hand with Congress. And, now, they have almost lost their grip on reality.
An example? The $170B "new" NEC project they spend lots of time and money on. Really. $170B? What planet are they living on? There is no doubt the NEC needs lots of TLC and, over time, chucks replaced with new alignments for higher speeds, but to roll the whole thing out there with that price tag just invokes laughter.
Why laughter? Because of their track record. Primarily because of the economics of the LD trains and the "tail wagging the dog", 4" too wide, Acela debacle (see Don Phillip's latest column).
The last innovation on LD trains? Long crew pools - from the Claytor era. Before that? Increasing passenger density with Superliners - an idea that came from the 1950s ATSF. Since then? China or plastic? To grill or not to grill? Really? That's it?
OK. How about high speed train operation? You need this to develop new corridors.
How long has Amtrak been working on ITCS in Michigan? It's closing in on 20 years now and they have finally gotten the speeds up to 110 mph. The hardware's been there for a decade.
ACSES signal system on the NEC? Developed in a vacuum by Amtrak. Not compatible in any general way with the industry effort toward PTC. It's confusing layered system of multi-carrier frequency cab signals and track transponders. Not compatible with ITCS, either. And ITCS is not compatible with PTC.
Amtrak, somehow, hired over 200 new staff people over the past several years. Not operational support, which you might need as ridership increases - to some extent. Staff people. Then there was all the histrionics over staff cuts - of about 200 people. Hmmmm.
And, I'll leave you with "did Congress make them buy baggage cars?"
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
First, Dave, you sound like a CPA bottom liner: everything has to have a profit or be eliminate. This not taking into account a system as a whole which either has to provide the service to feed the rest of the system or to uphold a certain amount of public responsiblity to maintain their charter agreement.
And Sam, you say that a service must be paid for by those who use it. So, in the case of Amtrak and long distance trains (presumably the target is the Empire Builder across the Northern Tier to the Northwest), government ownership of Amtrak to provide that service is the payment.
The charge that Amtrak has to turn a profit is a charge that all involved know is unobtainable and unfair. But rather that working with Amtrak, or allowing Amtrak to work, they fight it on political grounds using money and not economics as their arguement. Again I say, Amtrak should be legislativly restructured to allow for more long term planning and financeing. Management can only do the job they are restricted to doing. Day to day, month to month, year to year, congressional session to congressional session. Even the best managers cannot do what has been suggested here because they are handcuffed by the politics and Congressional strings attached to Amtrak. To achieve what you want, it has to be redifined.
Good discussion all around, although on the subject of the long-distance trains I think we sometimes forget that these are the reason for Amtrak's very existence. They are why Amtrak is here. Moreover, I think you can argue convincingly that they are no LESS necessary than they were going into 1971, shorn of most of their mail and running around the country half-empty. (Faint praise, I know.)
"Corridors" are nice and I am in favor of more of them. But Amtrak's MANDATE, until Congress says otherwise, is long-distance trains. Those who like to ride them, even while deploring their lack of economy, should be able to make their peace with that.
Sam1 According to the Energy Institute at UT, "to date, oil and gas regulators and other experts in groundwater protection have found little evidence of a direct link between fracing and groundwater contamination, but no comprehensive study of the technology and its effects has been conducted." UT's studies to date have found some environmental problems with fracing, but in many instances they appear to be similar to the problems associated with the traditional methods of oil and gas exploration, i.e. surface water contamination because of poor well head practices. UT is collaborating with Syracuse University, the Environmental Defense Fund, and the EPA, as well as others, to help determine the long term consequences of fracing. This is their spelling and apparently is interchangeable with fracking. More information can be found at the Institute's website. What this has to do with Amtrak, by the way, escapes me?
According to the Energy Institute at UT, "to date, oil and gas regulators and other experts in groundwater protection have found little evidence of a direct link between fracing and groundwater contamination, but no comprehensive study of the technology and its effects has been conducted."
UT's studies to date have found some environmental problems with fracing, but in many instances they appear to be similar to the problems associated with the traditional methods of oil and gas exploration, i.e. surface water contamination because of poor well head practices. UT is collaborating with Syracuse University, the Environmental Defense Fund, and the EPA, as well as others, to help determine the long term consequences of fracing. This is their spelling and apparently is interchangeable with fracking. More information can be found at the Institute's website. What this has to do with Amtrak, by the way, escapes me?
This UT study you quote may be good for Texas but it doesn't hold up in PA where water has been contaminated so bad people have had to sell their properties and move, the water is undrinkable and the enviroment has reduced foliage or damaged others, animal life has had negative effects. And the damned gas companies paid $3 an acre. This only part of the scam these thugs have pulled in the east. NJ has said no to fracking, New York City has determined they can't have it in their watershed, and the rest of us in the State look over the boarder into PA and say we don't want it either. The more we learn, the worse it sounds. The worse it sounds, the more we realize that we have been lied to and don't want fracking by these greedy thugs from Texas or anywhere else to ruin our land and our lives. I'm gonna stop now, before I really get started about this....
If the people in a representative republic a passenger rail system, it is their option. They should be prepared to pay for it. Ideally, the users of all modes of transport would pay the full cost of each mode at the price point, i.e. ticket counter, fuel taxes, etc. This includes intercity passenger rail. However, given the politics of transportation, this is not likely to happen. So all modes of transportation in most countries will be supported by a complex array of hidden subsidies. This does not, however, preclude an alternative to the government run monopoly called Amtrak.
A better model than Amtrak would be to bid out segments of the system to the lowest effective cost bidder. This is what the Australians did with their most prominent national intercity trains, i.e. Indian Pacific, The Ghan, and The Overland. With contract renewal hanging over their heads, the contractors have a big incentive to operate a competitive, market oriented, customer focused passenger rail service. Amtrak has no similar incentive. All it has to do is pander to the politicians.
I have to agree with some of the thoughts in the last comment. But why does Amtrak run money-loosing long distance trains that do not make a huge impact on traffic congestion or airport congestion? Because a majority of the USA citizens think this benefits the country, and I happen to agree with these fellow citizens, since it provides far better mobility for the handicapped and elderly, sujppports internal and external tourism, and provides back-up ememrgency transportation when airplanes are grounded. It is also fair. Traffic congestion and lack of available land force us to subsidize the business traveler in corridors and commuter lines. Fairness says we should also subsidize the handicapped and the elderly and the internal tourist who uses rail once a year or once a lifetime, as will as the businesman who uses rail twice a day or once a week.
I just returned from Alpine, Texas, which is the gateway, at least according to the locals, to the Big Bend country. It is a stop and crew change point for the Sunset Limited. The station has a brand new station platform, which Amtrak had built with a portion of its ARRA funds. It is a dandy. Looks great. But it seems a bit over the top for a thrice a week train.
As I frequently do when I am in Alpine, I just happened to be at the station when Number 2 came through Monday night. Wow, I thought, getting on and off the train will be much better from the new platform. Before it was constructed, people were directed to board the train from the middle of the street, which the train blocks while it is changing crews.
There is a sign on the east end of the new station platform instructing passengers not to board the train beyond the yellow line, i.e. don't go beyond the edge of the platform into the cross street. Not to worry about warning signs. The train crew detrained and entrained the sleeping car passengers in the middle of the street. Just like they did before the new platform was commissioned. So much for the new platform.
As noted in another post, Amtrak's management doesn't seem to get it. Allowing the crew of the Sunset Limited to board sleeping car passengers from the middle of the street is just one example. The real problem with Amtrak lies in the fact that the CEO is bureaucrat who has spent most of his life in a non-competitive agency environment where customer service is pretty low on the totem pole.
The tone for an organization starts at the top. If the CEO doesn't understand competitive markets and customer service, it is not likely to trickle down the organization. Amtrak has some effective employees, but it has too many lackadaisical folks who don't understand customer service. Until that changes, Amtrak does not have a terribly bright future.
oltmannd henry6: Phoebe Vet: Just in the North And South Dakota, Montana north Idaho and extending into Canada there is a vast oil reserve which calculated at current consumption is large enough to last us 700 years I would love to see where you got THAT statistic. Based on everything we have been preached by the oil lobby, I certainly doubt this claim...it is too big a turnaround from all that is said.. Oh, the claim is true. What's not said is that a big chunk of it isn't economic to get out and most of the rest is beyond current technology at any cost. A very small chunk is being extracted now.
henry6: Phoebe Vet: Just in the North And South Dakota, Montana north Idaho and extending into Canada there is a vast oil reserve which calculated at current consumption is large enough to last us 700 years I would love to see where you got THAT statistic. Based on everything we have been preached by the oil lobby, I certainly doubt this claim...it is too big a turnaround from all that is said..
Phoebe Vet: Just in the North And South Dakota, Montana north Idaho and extending into Canada there is a vast oil reserve which calculated at current consumption is large enough to last us 700 years I would love to see where you got THAT statistic.
Just in the North And South Dakota, Montana north Idaho and extending into Canada there is a vast oil reserve which calculated at current consumption is large enough to last us 700 years
I would love to see where you got THAT statistic.
Based on everything we have been preached by the oil lobby, I certainly doubt this claim...it is too big a turnaround from all that is said..
Oh, the claim is true. What's not said is that a big chunk of it isn't economic to get out and most of the rest is beyond current technology at any cost. A very small chunk is being extracted now.
There are some there who think fracking...hydro fracturing...is the panacea to open all the available petroleum and gas to pass into their bank accounts. But the truth is that the damage fracking does to the environment, ecologoy, geography, and society is far more damaging than the value of the product.
henry6 oltmannd: Phoebe Vet: People don't take the train because the train doesn't go where and when they need. On the northeast corridor the trains are fast, frequent, and on time. LOTS of people take those trains. So, knowing this, Amtrak tried to replicate this success....almost nowhere. California was instigated by the state. The Empire Service improvement of the 1970s and 80s were pushed by the state. Amtrak has been talking about improved corridors but has moved so slowly over the years on Chicago - Detroit and Chicago - StL they might as well not bothered. The Southeast has grown leaps and bounds since 1971. Other than what NC is doing (mostly on their own) what has Amtrak accomplished in terms of improved service? Nil. ...I'm just getting warmed up. First, Amtrak can only improve when Congress gives it the money and a program that will make it happen. Say "do it" and not provide the funds or allow for a reasonable program to accomplish any given need means nothing but words. And states have to come to the plate with something on it, too. NC has seen that but the politically conservative states will not. And despite the growth, it is still open country and not megopolis congestion like the Corridor. Either Congress should fund Amtrak with the same amounts of money they fund highway, air, and water, or they should set it up like the Postal Service, or even go so far as to set it up like they did Conrail. Amtrak, by design, moves at the speed of government.
oltmannd: Phoebe Vet: People don't take the train because the train doesn't go where and when they need. On the northeast corridor the trains are fast, frequent, and on time. LOTS of people take those trains. So, knowing this, Amtrak tried to replicate this success....almost nowhere. California was instigated by the state. The Empire Service improvement of the 1970s and 80s were pushed by the state. Amtrak has been talking about improved corridors but has moved so slowly over the years on Chicago - Detroit and Chicago - StL they might as well not bothered. The Southeast has grown leaps and bounds since 1971. Other than what NC is doing (mostly on their own) what has Amtrak accomplished in terms of improved service? Nil. ...I'm just getting warmed up.
Phoebe Vet: People don't take the train because the train doesn't go where and when they need. On the northeast corridor the trains are fast, frequent, and on time. LOTS of people take those trains.
People don't take the train because the train doesn't go where and when they need.
On the northeast corridor the trains are fast, frequent, and on time. LOTS of people take those trains.
So, knowing this, Amtrak tried to replicate this success....almost nowhere. California was instigated by the state. The Empire Service improvement of the 1970s and 80s were pushed by the state. Amtrak has been talking about improved corridors but has moved so slowly over the years on Chicago - Detroit and Chicago - StL they might as well not bothered.
The Southeast has grown leaps and bounds since 1971. Other than what NC is doing (mostly on their own) what has Amtrak accomplished in terms of improved service? Nil.
...I'm just getting warmed up.
First, Amtrak can only improve when Congress gives it the money and a program that will make it happen. Say "do it" and not provide the funds or allow for a reasonable program to accomplish any given need means nothing but words. And states have to come to the plate with something on it, too. NC has seen that but the politically conservative states will not. And despite the growth, it is still open country and not megopolis congestion like the Corridor. Either Congress should fund Amtrak with the same amounts of money they fund highway, air, and water, or they should set it up like the Postal Service, or even go so far as to set it up like they did Conrail. Amtrak, by design, moves at the speed of government.
So, Amtrak is supposed to sit there like a bump on a rock and do absolutely nothing until some congressman says, "Hey! Lets see about developing the Chicago - Detroit corridor"?
Baloney.
You are Amtrak, you take the lead and lobby to get funding for projects. But, you have to show value and credibility with what you've been given so far.
What Amtrak does is lobby to get protective legislation and negotiate "poison pill" labor deals.
henry6 Phoebe Vet: Just in the North And South Dakota, Montana north Idaho and extending into Canada there is a vast oil reserve which calculated at current consumption is large enough to last us 700 years I would love to see where you got THAT statistic. Based on everything we have been preached by the oil lobby, I certainly doubt this claim...it is too big a turnaround from all that is said..
Phoebe Vet Just in the North And South Dakota, Montana north Idaho and extending into Canada there is a vast oil reserve which calculated at current consumption is large enough to last us 700 years I would love to see where you got THAT statistic.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
SantaFeJoe Sorry about the statement about Unions. I didn't want the discussion to to move toward Unions .I do agree they have helped in the past to improve many things for workers and working place safety. I do challenge you about fuel resources. Are you aware here in the USA we have vast crude oil reserves. But fuel resources are not forever...the line the oil and gas companies have been giving is to get support for fracking (using chemical solutions pumped into the ground to crack shale and release gas and oil while polluting ground, ground water, air, and using precious water). Just in the North And South Dakota, Montana north Idaho and extending into Canada there is a vast oil reserve which calculated at current consumption is large enough to last us 700 years!!!! We have more oil than all of the arab states combined. In addition oil is a renewable resource!!!!!!!! Many of the oil wells that were thought to have been pumped dry have new crude in them. We are awash in oil. It is a great fuel and hundreds of years of resources that can be potentially be used. In that time I am sure we can find alternatives BUT we derive so many benefits from oil that contribute so much to our way of life. Trains lead the way in using continually more fuel efficient engines. We have all kinds of technology that make exhaust emissions almost minimal. *** Here you are talking about states getting involved in solving the problem of moving people and not the Federal Government and Amtrak. This is good, but there are many states who don't have the congestion problem or are very politically conservative, and are not going to get into supporting publicly funded rail passenger projects: I do think gov't has a role in promoting the common good of our nation and it should subsidize railservice to a degree that allows passenger service to exist. Out in California the passenger service that services the state from top to bottom is successful & profitable. TRAINS had an article about it a couple years ago. This last Spring for Spring break I rode it with a couple of my kids and it was great. Yes we have to promote a rethinking of passenger service. I have always believed in the American "can-Do" spirit. I know we can make our rail service great and I agree there are so many obstacles to overcome. BUT if we approached this like a Manhattan Project or Like the going to the moon project think of all the jobs, and excitement it would create. Not to mention all the technological benefits.
Sorry about the statement about Unions. I didn't want the discussion to to move toward Unions .I do agree they have helped in the past to improve many things for workers and working place safety.
I do challenge you about fuel resources. Are you aware here in the USA we have vast crude oil reserves. But fuel resources are not forever...the line the oil and gas companies have been giving is to get support for fracking (using chemical solutions pumped into the ground to crack shale and release gas and oil while polluting ground, ground water, air, and using precious water).
Just in the North And South Dakota, Montana north Idaho and extending into Canada there is a vast oil reserve which calculated at current consumption is large enough to last us 700 years!!!! We have more oil than all of the arab states combined. In addition oil is a renewable resource!!!!!!!! Many of the oil wells that were thought to have been pumped dry have new crude in them. We are awash in oil. It is a great fuel and hundreds of years of resources that can be potentially be used. In that time I am sure we can find alternatives BUT we derive so many benefits from oil that contribute so much to our way of life. Trains lead the way in using continually more fuel efficient engines. We have all kinds of technology that make exhaust emissions almost minimal.
***
Here you are talking about states getting involved in solving the problem of moving people and not the Federal Government and Amtrak. This is good, but there are many states who don't have the congestion problem or are very politically conservative, and are not going to get into supporting publicly funded rail passenger projects:
I do think gov't has a role in promoting the common good of our nation and it should subsidize railservice to a degree that allows passenger service to exist. Out in California the passenger service that services the state from top to bottom is successful & profitable. TRAINS had an article about it a couple years ago. This last Spring for Spring break I rode it with a couple of my kids and it was great.
Yes we have to promote a rethinking of passenger service. I have always believed in the American "can-Do" spirit. I know we can make our rail service great and I agree there are so many obstacles to overcome. BUT if we approached this like a Manhattan Project or Like the going to the moon project think of all the jobs, and excitement it would create. Not to mention all the technological benefits.
oltmannd Phoebe Vet: People don't take the train because the train doesn't go where and when they need. On the northeast corridor the trains are fast, frequent, and on time. LOTS of people take those trains. So, knowing this, Amtrak tried to replicate this success....almost nowhere. California was instigated by the state. The Empire Service improvement of the 1970s and 80s were pushed by the state. Amtrak has been talking about improved corridors but has moved so slowly over the years on Chicago - Detroit and Chicago - StL they might as well not bothered. The Southeast has grown leaps and bounds since 1971. Other than what NC is doing (mostly on their own) what has Amtrak accomplished in terms of improved service? Nil. ...I'm just getting warmed up.
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