Happened to hear a recent NPR feature about the now near-dormant, two-block long, Farley PO in Manhattan, across the street from the now-gone Pennsy terminal. It was stated that within a couple of years, this building will become an Amtrak terminal. Apparently, there already are rails into this building.
Surely you all know about this. Can you please bring me up to date on what is going on, and why?
Simply put the tracks come out of the North River Tunnels, through the yards, under the building, and into Penn Station (such as it is). The idea is to convert the building space into a railroad terminal. Simply put it is rife with politics.
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The tracks and platforms are there already as part of the original Penn Station construction. All that is needed is stairways, escalators, and massive interior building remodeling.
travelingengineer Happened to hear a recent NPR feature about the now near-dormant, two-block long, Farley PO in Manhattan, across the street from the now-gone Pennsy terminal. It was stated that within a couple of years, this building will become an Amtrak terminal. Apparently, there already are rails into this building. Surely you all know about this. Can you please bring me up to date on what is going on, and why?
Last I heard in 2010 they are going forwards with the project. Here is an old website from 2009 with an artists rendering of what the Passenger waiting area will look like.
http://www.moynihanstation.org/newsite/2009/09/amtrak_agrees_to_move_operatio.html
The post office was just half a block long until the western annex was built.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/PennTower.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/ESBPenn.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/Penn10.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/NYPO-PRR.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/PennPO.jpg
http://www.nyc-architecture.com/MID/MID133-37.jpg
Question: I notice third rail 600VDC power and the overhead appears to be a fixed rail for the 11.5KV and not CAT. Did PRR add CAT later??,
Forgive me, folks, but you are way ahead of me! I am confused (or rather sort of a newbie). From the posts and photograph, it appears that the PO was the Manhattan terminal. But, then, what was the Penn Central now-gone terminal across the street?
In other words, what are the tracks that are being discussed? Did the tracks go to both the PO and the Penn Central terminal? It sure would help me, for example, is if I could see a diagram of the layout of tracks in the area of the PO and the Penn terminal then (before destruction of Penn and now.
Sorry to get so basic, in my desire for understanding. And, thanks in advance for your sure clarification.
First, note there have been several excellent books about Pennsylvania Station, two in the last five or ten years. A woman, whose last name is Johnnes, did an excellent history of the building and use of the station; another woman, Lorraine Diehl, did a great book of social commentary and history of the building, too. Both should be available at or through any library and are highly reccommended reading.
Next. The station was built by the PRR for its trains and those of the LIRR Railroad back in the late teens into the early 20's . The LIRR was, and is still, third rail; the PRR also elected to use third rail prior to the decision to electrify through to Washington, DC and Harrisburg, PA....the PRR third rail went to Manhatten Transfer, east of Harrison, NJ, where steam handed over the trains to electric locomotives. One of the two North River tubes still has the 3rd rail intact...and reportedly powered...almost to the NJ portal.
The Farley Post Office, once known as the General Post Office, was built in the late 20's/early 30's over the rairoad yards and tracks west of the Station and east of the North RIver Tunnels. The original Pennsylvania Station was (criminally, disrespectfully, and wontonly) destroyed by Penn Central for real estate exploitation so that the current Madison Garden sports arena could be built. Little was expended to deal with either commuter passengers of the PCRR or the LIRR nor the long distance passengers of PC as the Garden was built atop the remnant hallways and rooms below ground level which were expected to deal with the then present and later future of passenger rail service. Wansweel's excellent pictures show the genisis of the concept of big metropolis passenger rail services; what you see today is the result of neglect of the passenger rail services. One of the ideas bandied around from time to time is the removal of the Farley building and a replacement railroad passenger station building built in its place.
You don't know what you are talking about. The station was torn down by the Pennsy which was
in financial trouble at the time. The city of New York accessed the taxes on the station the same
as commercial buildings. The station served money losing passenger trains and the losses
were killing the railroad. The railroad even offered to give the station to the city, but the city
refused. The railroad had NO choice but to cut their losses. If the city had been more enlightened
the station would be standing today.
nyc#25 You don't know what you are talking about. The station was torn down by the Pennsy which was in financial trouble at the time. The city of New York accessed the taxes on the station the same as commercial buildings. The station served money losing passenger trains and the losses were killing the railroad. The railroad even offered to give the station to the city, but the city refused. The railroad had NO choice but to cut their losses. If the city had been more enlightened the station would be standing today.
Unfortunately, your facts are not substantiated. PRR wanted to unload the station as early as 1954 in a $30 mil. option for air rights with Zeckendorf, which expired, unused in 1956. He attempted to renew the option for $10 mil. which the PRR rejected. In 1961 PRR struck a deal with Madison Square Garden where it would sell the air rights, have the station torn down and get a 25% interest in the corporation. The city had no right to stop the demolition, as the Landmark Preservation Commission (which later protected Grand Central) came a little too late. I was unable to find any documentation that the railroad offered the station to NYC. If you have that information, you should share it rather than insult another participant.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Just a technical point. In my memory, the platforms did extend as far west as to belocated under the Farley Post O|ffice building for a short distance. At least those platforms not assigned for use by LIRR or the lowest numbered tracks used primarily buy mu's and trains to the NY&LB. At the west end there were pacel elevators to the Farley building that could be used for direct movement between mail storage cars and RPO's and the Farley building, and I believe these were usable up to the end of the last use of rail mail (bulk and RPO) by the Post Office.
Yikes, I didn't mean to stir up a brouhaha. But, I am gratefully overwhelmed by the responses that you all are providing regarding the Penn and Farley buidings, after my plea for information. Since I never lived in NYC, I was completely unacquainted with the history and physical layouts, as well as the apparent differences in opinion about certain matters. Thank you so very much to all of you.
Let me reiterate: a reading of Johannes' and Diehl's books would go a long way in explaining the rise and demise of the building itself along with all other rumors, innuendo, speculation, and other false statements given here. Including mine, by the way.
There probably had to be some overhead third rail to navigate some of the crossovers. I see a small 3rd rail pantograph on some DD-1 pictures.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
The third rail was kept in place through the Hudson River Tunnels in order to support the wire train, for which PRR and PC kept a DD-1 on the roster until about 1970. The DD-1 was replaced by a T-motor, which lasted until 1976 or so.
I don't believe there was any overhead in Penn until the 1930 electrification project. GCT, yes. Penn, no.
Diagram of tracks. Post Office occupies 9th Ave. to 8th Ave.
http://forums.railfan.net/image.cgi?/PassengerTrains/penn_sta.jpg
"wanswheel," what a neato diagram. Exactly what I was anxious to get. Thank you so much. If you are able, could you tell me where the old Penn Station used to be (i.e. between what streets, etc.) Regardless, I really appreciate your thoughtfulness.
Though I may never pass through NYC again (I occasionally did many years ago), I am interested in "urban archaeology," particularly of old buildings, houses, etc., and their preservation.
Penn Station occupied 8th Ave. to 7th Ave, 33rd St. to 31st St. This picture shows the main entrance on 7th Ave. at 32nd St., looking west. The Post Office is discernible through the framework of Madison Square Garden under construction.
Mike
oltmanndThere probably had to be some overhead third rail to navigate some of the crossovers.
The east half of the post office opened around 1914, but the west half of the block was still in the open until around 1932 when the post office expanded west to 9th Ave.
timz oltmannd: There probably had to be some overhead third rail to navigate some of the crossovers. Presumably that's what we're looking at here http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/PennTower.jpg
oltmannd: There probably had to be some overhead third rail to navigate some of the crossovers.
Presumably that's what we're looking at here
In fact, you can see the "X" of the overhead 3rd rail over the track centers in the picture.
The diagram proves me correct. The diagram extends west to 10th Avenue. The diagonal platform was not a passenger platform and did not have stairways or escalators or elevators to the station itself. Does it still exist> Possibly it was a specifically mail or parcel platform. 9th, 8th, and 7th Avneue are all shown running north and south above the station tracks.
No, I don't believe the diagonal platform exists any more. Platform 1 in the diagram was mainly for mail...I remember seeing RPO's and bulk storage cars parked there for both PRR and NH.
And still, I reiterate, I don't believe there were overhead wires in third rail days. prior to the big electrification project. The picture of gantry like structures carried power cables and compressed air pipes for the swtiches.
True, no overhead wires in 1910-- but there was overhead 3rd rail where needed, and it's a good bet that's what the pic shows.
I have never seen a photograph of a DD-1 with the kind of pantograph for "overhead third rail" as the Central called it, that was standard on the S-1 and T-1 "motors"(electric locomotives) that were used in GCT. Before the 1932 Trenton - Sunnyside Yard and Harold Tower overhead AC 11000V electrification, DD-1's were the only power used at Penn, other than LIRR commuter cars. DD-1's were used for switching, for through trains and a few commuter trains from Manhattan Transfer (most commuter trains going to Jersey City), for New Haven Trains from Harold Tower, and LIRR trains from Jamaica. The DD-1's were a two-unit permentaly coupled locomotive, with longer wheel-base than the T-1's and S-1's used by the Central. So possibly they just did not need "overhead third rail" and/or put total reliance on coasting through the puzzle switches.
daveklepper I have never seen a photograph of a DD-1 with the kind of pantograph for "overhead third rail" as the Central called it, that was standard on the S-1 and T-1 "motors"(electric locomotives) that were used in GCT. Before the 1932 Trenton - Sunnyside Yard and Harold Tower overhead AC 11000V electrification, DD-1's were the only power used at Penn, other than LIRR commuter cars. DD-1's were used for switching, for through trains and a few commuter trains from Manhattan Transfer (most commuter trains going to Jersey City), for New Haven Trains from Harold Tower, and LIRR trains from Jamaica. The DD-1's were a two-unit permentaly coupled locomotive, with longer wheel-base than the T-1's and S-1's used by the Central. So possibly they just did not need "overhead third rail" and/or put total reliance on coasting through the puzzle switches.
Here is early picture of DD-1 with overhead pantograph:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/PRR_DD1.jpg
Note there is one on each "D" suggesting no buss between the units. Also, on Wikipedia, there is an elevation drawing that shows the pan.
Perhaps once the catenary went up, they did interconnect the two units. They would have had to get rid of the overhead 3rd rail at that point.
henry6 No, I don't believe the diagonal platform exists any more. Platform 1 in the diagram was mainly for mail...I remember seeing RPO's and bulk storage cars parked there for both PRR and NH. And still, I reiterate, I don't believe there were overhead wires in third rail days. prior to the big electrification project. The picture of gantry like structures carried power cables and compressed air pipes for the swtiches.
Why would they put them in the air when everywhere else on the system they put them on the ground? 3rd rail power cables and compressed air piping easily fits between the ties. Much cheaper and easier to maintain on the ground.
Wat is more interesting is the third rail in that picture is under running NYC style third rail??
Sure nuff-- and looks like the DD1 has maybe been converted to use it.
Where would NY Central have had a single-track bridge like that, with third rail? Was the electrified part of the Putnam all double track?
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