On second (or third) thought, the picture of the DD-1 with small pantographs may not be evidence that overhead third rail was actually ever used in Penn Station. The picture is obviously a test run, or roll-out, since wood open-platform coaches were never used in revenue service behind DD-1's. The PRR was very careful that only steel equpment operated through the tunnels into Penn Station, and this applied both to PRR and to LIRR trains. And much later to NYNH&H, LV, and B&O trains, although possibly they were forced by the US Government to make exceptions for the B&O, but this is doubtful.
The PRR copied the NYC as to intended use of overhead third rail . But possibly they did try out the DD-1's on the throat and yard trackage without installing the overhead third rail over switch leads during the period that only LIRR MU cars provided revenue service into the station. They were pragmatists, and certainly there was no overhead third rail in place during the period that I experienced when DD-1's were still handling through LIRR trains from lines still steam (Montauk, Greenpoint, Port Jefferson, Oyster Bay) into Penn Station. If overhead third rail was actually installed, obviouly it was removed beforer the Trenton - Sunnyside electrification extension, probably well before that, possibly at the time of the first Philadelphia suburban area 11000V AC electrification.
The two prototype New Haven FL-9's were also equpped with small pantographs for opertion on overhead third rail in GCT. These were removed and were not installed on other 58 FL-9's.
Keep in mind - especially younger forumites - that virtually all inter-city mail travelled by rail at the time the station was built. Almost every big city post office was built next to (or very close to) a railway station, so mail could be picked up and sent out by train.
Sincerest apologies. Just because I did not see it , doesn't mean it didn't happen or exist! The photo of the DD-1, with open-platform wood coaches, yet, indicates overhead third rail must have been in place when Penn Sta. opened . Interesting to learn when the small pantographs on the DD-1's and the overhead third rail were removed. The DD-1's did have four pickup shoes, one on each side of each pony truck, so they could bridge gaps a bit better than a T-1. Anyone have photos or whatever to see if the overhead third rail did last until the overhead wire AC electrification?
The photo must have been before the Station's opening, because it opened with steel coaches.
I remember DD-1's very well. In addition to the wire train, they were still in use in the post-WWII period on the LIRR with change to steam at Jamaica for Penn Station passenger trains, and also used on freight trains . They definitely did not have the small pantographs at that time. I think I rode behind one once or twice. Other than the wire train, they did not work for the PRR anymore.
Incidentally, there have been occasions where Amtrak has borrowed a set of LIRR M-1 commuter coaches, with adapter coupler-air, to power the wire train.
Excerpt from The New York Tunnel Extension of The Pennsylvania Railroad (1910)
Cabin "A" is the main interlocking station of the Terminal, controlling all the movements to and from the west and the main-ladder switching movements. In order to obtain a central location and unrestricted view, the building was placed on a bridge over the throat of the ladder tracks about midway between the Post Office Building and Ninth Avenue. This gives the cabin a prominent position in the open yard, and it was thought to justify the design of a somewhat pretentious structure. The building is of the monolithic concrete type, and perhaps might be termed a reinforced concrete building, although, because of its spanning the tracks, and the fact that it serves as a support for the overhead third-rail and signal structures, a considerable quantity of structural steel is buried in its walls; thus it is not a purely reinforced concrete structure. The architecture is of the Mission type, with wide overhanging eaves and low ridged roof, covered with red Spanish tile. Owing to its location over and adjoining the switchwork of the tracks, special care was taken to protect the supporting walls in case of train derailment. At the east the station platforms perform this function, and on the west were placed very massive wedge-shaped fenders composed of 80-lb. T-rails embedded in concrete and carried below and under the track system. The entire floor space of the cabin is occupied by the operating-room, containing the interlocking machine on the floor and the relays and wiring in a gallery above; the gallery girders also act as anchor arms for the cantilever structures attached to the cabin and used for supporting the overhead rail and signal. All signal wiring is carried in a false floor above the concrete floor of the cabin and in ducts through the side-walls and into a basement extending under the entire cabin below the tracks, where switch-boards, storage batteries, and other apparatus are located. From this basement the wire conduits are carried in a special subway (referred to elsewhere) which communicates with the subways under the yard.
Pictures of new stairway to Cabin A
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/90d83581f8f5b779_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/53374a6ddca4fb16_large
Moynihan Station
http://www.esd.ny.gov/Subsidiaries_Projects/MSDC/MSDCRenderings.html
Sure nuff-- and looks like the DD1 has maybe been converted to use it.
Where would NY Central have had a single-track bridge like that, with third rail? Was the electrified part of the Putnam all double track?
Wat is more interesting is the third rail in that picture is under running NYC style third rail??
henry6 No, I don't believe the diagonal platform exists any more. Platform 1 in the diagram was mainly for mail...I remember seeing RPO's and bulk storage cars parked there for both PRR and NH. And still, I reiterate, I don't believe there were overhead wires in third rail days. prior to the big electrification project. The picture of gantry like structures carried power cables and compressed air pipes for the swtiches.
No, I don't believe the diagonal platform exists any more. Platform 1 in the diagram was mainly for mail...I remember seeing RPO's and bulk storage cars parked there for both PRR and NH.
And still, I reiterate, I don't believe there were overhead wires in third rail days. prior to the big electrification project. The picture of gantry like structures carried power cables and compressed air pipes for the swtiches.
Why would they put them in the air when everywhere else on the system they put them on the ground? 3rd rail power cables and compressed air piping easily fits between the ties. Much cheaper and easier to maintain on the ground.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
daveklepper I have never seen a photograph of a DD-1 with the kind of pantograph for "overhead third rail" as the Central called it, that was standard on the S-1 and T-1 "motors"(electric locomotives) that were used in GCT. Before the 1932 Trenton - Sunnyside Yard and Harold Tower overhead AC 11000V electrification, DD-1's were the only power used at Penn, other than LIRR commuter cars. DD-1's were used for switching, for through trains and a few commuter trains from Manhattan Transfer (most commuter trains going to Jersey City), for New Haven Trains from Harold Tower, and LIRR trains from Jamaica. The DD-1's were a two-unit permentaly coupled locomotive, with longer wheel-base than the T-1's and S-1's used by the Central. So possibly they just did not need "overhead third rail" and/or put total reliance on coasting through the puzzle switches.
I have never seen a photograph of a DD-1 with the kind of pantograph for "overhead third rail" as the Central called it, that was standard on the S-1 and T-1 "motors"(electric locomotives) that were used in GCT. Before the 1932 Trenton - Sunnyside Yard and Harold Tower overhead AC 11000V electrification, DD-1's were the only power used at Penn, other than LIRR commuter cars. DD-1's were used for switching, for through trains and a few commuter trains from Manhattan Transfer (most commuter trains going to Jersey City), for New Haven Trains from Harold Tower, and LIRR trains from Jamaica. The DD-1's were a two-unit permentaly coupled locomotive, with longer wheel-base than the T-1's and S-1's used by the Central. So possibly they just did not need "overhead third rail" and/or put total reliance on coasting through the puzzle switches.
Here is early picture of DD-1 with overhead pantograph:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/PRR_DD1.jpg
Note there is one on each "D" suggesting no buss between the units. Also, on Wikipedia, there is an elevation drawing that shows the pan.
Perhaps once the catenary went up, they did interconnect the two units. They would have had to get rid of the overhead 3rd rail at that point.
True, no overhead wires in 1910-- but there was overhead 3rd rail where needed, and it's a good bet that's what the pic shows.
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The diagram proves me correct. The diagram extends west to 10th Avenue. The diagonal platform was not a passenger platform and did not have stairways or escalators or elevators to the station itself. Does it still exist> Possibly it was a specifically mail or parcel platform. 9th, 8th, and 7th Avneue are all shown running north and south above the station tracks.
timz oltmannd: There probably had to be some overhead third rail to navigate some of the crossovers. Presumably that's what we're looking at here http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/PennTower.jpg
oltmannd: There probably had to be some overhead third rail to navigate some of the crossovers.
Presumably that's what we're looking at here
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/PennTower.jpg
In fact, you can see the "X" of the overhead 3rd rail over the track centers in the picture.
oltmanndThere probably had to be some overhead third rail to navigate some of the crossovers.
The east half of the post office opened around 1914, but the west half of the block was still in the open until around 1932 when the post office expanded west to 9th Ave.
Penn Station occupied 8th Ave. to 7th Ave, 33rd St. to 31st St. This picture shows the main entrance on 7th Ave. at 32nd St., looking west. The Post Office is discernible through the framework of Madison Square Garden under construction.
Mike
"wanswheel," what a neato diagram. Exactly what I was anxious to get. Thank you so much. If you are able, could you tell me where the old Penn Station used to be (i.e. between what streets, etc.) Regardless, I really appreciate your thoughtfulness.
Though I may never pass through NYC again (I occasionally did many years ago), I am interested in "urban archaeology," particularly of old buildings, houses, etc., and their preservation.
Diagram of tracks. Post Office occupies 9th Ave. to 8th Ave.
http://forums.railfan.net/image.cgi?/PassengerTrains/penn_sta.jpg
I don't believe there was any overhead in Penn until the 1930 electrification project. GCT, yes. Penn, no.
The third rail was kept in place through the Hudson River Tunnels in order to support the wire train, for which PRR and PC kept a DD-1 on the roster until about 1970. The DD-1 was replaced by a T-motor, which lasted until 1976 or so.
There probably had to be some overhead third rail to navigate some of the crossovers. I see a small 3rd rail pantograph on some DD-1 pictures.
Let me reiterate: a reading of Johannes' and Diehl's books would go a long way in explaining the rise and demise of the building itself along with all other rumors, innuendo, speculation, and other false statements given here. Including mine, by the way.
Yikes, I didn't mean to stir up a brouhaha. But, I am gratefully overwhelmed by the responses that you all are providing regarding the Penn and Farley buidings, after my plea for information. Since I never lived in NYC, I was completely unacquainted with the history and physical layouts, as well as the apparent differences in opinion about certain matters. Thank you so very much to all of you.
Just a technical point. In my memory, the platforms did extend as far west as to belocated under the Farley Post O|ffice building for a short distance. At least those platforms not assigned for use by LIRR or the lowest numbered tracks used primarily buy mu's and trains to the NY&LB. At the west end there were pacel elevators to the Farley building that could be used for direct movement between mail storage cars and RPO's and the Farley building, and I believe these were usable up to the end of the last use of rail mail (bulk and RPO) by the Post Office.
nyc#25 You don't know what you are talking about. The station was torn down by the Pennsy which was in financial trouble at the time. The city of New York accessed the taxes on the station the same as commercial buildings. The station served money losing passenger trains and the losses were killing the railroad. The railroad even offered to give the station to the city, but the city refused. The railroad had NO choice but to cut their losses. If the city had been more enlightened the station would be standing today.
You don't know what you are talking about. The station was torn down by the Pennsy which was
in financial trouble at the time. The city of New York accessed the taxes on the station the same
as commercial buildings. The station served money losing passenger trains and the losses
were killing the railroad. The railroad even offered to give the station to the city, but the city
refused. The railroad had NO choice but to cut their losses. If the city had been more enlightened
the station would be standing today.
Unfortunately, your facts are not substantiated. PRR wanted to unload the station as early as 1954 in a $30 mil. option for air rights with Zeckendorf, which expired, unused in 1956. He attempted to renew the option for $10 mil. which the PRR rejected. In 1961 PRR struck a deal with Madison Square Garden where it would sell the air rights, have the station torn down and get a 25% interest in the corporation. The city had no right to stop the demolition, as the Landmark Preservation Commission (which later protected Grand Central) came a little too late. I was unable to find any documentation that the railroad offered the station to NYC. If you have that information, you should share it rather than insult another participant.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
First, note there have been several excellent books about Pennsylvania Station, two in the last five or ten years. A woman, whose last name is Johnnes, did an excellent history of the building and use of the station; another woman, Lorraine Diehl, did a great book of social commentary and history of the building, too. Both should be available at or through any library and are highly reccommended reading.
Next. The station was built by the PRR for its trains and those of the LIRR Railroad back in the late teens into the early 20's . The LIRR was, and is still, third rail; the PRR also elected to use third rail prior to the decision to electrify through to Washington, DC and Harrisburg, PA....the PRR third rail went to Manhatten Transfer, east of Harrison, NJ, where steam handed over the trains to electric locomotives. One of the two North River tubes still has the 3rd rail intact...and reportedly powered...almost to the NJ portal.
The Farley Post Office, once known as the General Post Office, was built in the late 20's/early 30's over the rairoad yards and tracks west of the Station and east of the North RIver Tunnels. The original Pennsylvania Station was (criminally, disrespectfully, and wontonly) destroyed by Penn Central for real estate exploitation so that the current Madison Garden sports arena could be built. Little was expended to deal with either commuter passengers of the PCRR or the LIRR nor the long distance passengers of PC as the Garden was built atop the remnant hallways and rooms below ground level which were expected to deal with the then present and later future of passenger rail service. Wansweel's excellent pictures show the genisis of the concept of big metropolis passenger rail services; what you see today is the result of neglect of the passenger rail services. One of the ideas bandied around from time to time is the removal of the Farley building and a replacement railroad passenger station building built in its place.
Forgive me, folks, but you are way ahead of me! I am confused (or rather sort of a newbie). From the posts and photograph, it appears that the PO was the Manhattan terminal. But, then, what was the Penn Central now-gone terminal across the street?
In other words, what are the tracks that are being discussed? Did the tracks go to both the PO and the Penn Central terminal? It sure would help me, for example, is if I could see a diagram of the layout of tracks in the area of the PO and the Penn terminal then (before destruction of Penn and now.
Sorry to get so basic, in my desire for understanding. And, thanks in advance for your sure clarification.
Question: I notice third rail 600VDC power and the overhead appears to be a fixed rail for the 11.5KV and not CAT. Did PRR add CAT later??,
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