I'm not train-savvy, but I'm very interested in the fate of the Madison station. Could anyone shed some light on what might be some really uninformed questions from a train / public transport newbie?
1. What's the advantage of putting the station at the airport, in the absence of a commuter rail line or bus hub? I can't imagine we're going to get too many people coming from Milwaukee or Chicago to catch a plane in Madison -- our airport is too little. But is there some other forward-thinking urban planning reason to have the station there?
2. From the Yahara Station proposals, I thought that location would eliminate the backing-out problem that would come with a Monona Terrace / Kohl Center location. But are there other problems with the existing track that would still make that location unworkable?
3. I also thought that the HSR route is already set, and that it's expected to go past the proposed Yahara Station site whether there's a station there or not. Is that not right?
4. Does anyone know of any competing site plans -- actual plans -- other than the airport and Yahara? I keep hearing murmurs of other possible sites, but I haven't been able to find any actual proposals.
oltmanndIt should be noted that some of the most sucessfull stations on the NEC are not, or, at least were not, built in "downtown". 30th St in Phila is a mile from Center City Phila. Penna Sta in Baltimore is at least a mile from downtown Baltimore. Even South Sta. in Boston is a hike from the center of town. In a "sprawly" area, good roads and parking are probably more important than being near the traditional town center.
In a "sprawly" area, good roads and parking are probably more important than being near the traditional town center.
Being large trip generators doesn't mean optimal. Philadelphia and Baltimore may have good connections to downtown; but how do trip attraction rates compare with other cities? How many more travelers will fly or drive simply because a transfer is needed to reach a downtown business destination? Obviously, Philadelphia thought downtown access was vital and a priority for suburban services. Is there a corresponding difference in the percentages of those originating or terminating within walking distance or a short cab ride of Penn Station New York rather than Wall Street?
My experience with Springfield, Illinois is that the close proximity to the State Capitol contributes to substantial ridership during sessions. I would suspect the same could be true at Madison. Likewise, additional stops at campus locations within walking distance of major travel generators also would attract much more ridership to Madison from the Milwaukee Area and Racine. Traffic from Madison is more dispersed and I would agree needs to have convenient road access and sufficient transit service and parking.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
For those interested in getting between Dane County Regional Airport and points in Madison, see http://www.msnairport.com/guide/transportation.aspx
where
Madison Metro Transit System (608) 266-4466 TDD (608) 267-1143 Website: www.mymetrobus.com
Route 20 runs between the North Transfer Point and East Towne Mall via the Airport every thirty minutes during weekdays, and hourly weeknights, weekends and holidays. For service from the Airport to downtown Madison or the UW campus area, passengers should board buses reading "Route 20 - North Transfer Point." Buses reading "Route 20 - East Towne Mall" would carry passengers to points east of the airport, including the MATC campus area, and eventually, East Towne Mall.
The following area hotels may have a courtesy vehicle to handle your transportation to or from the Dane County Regional Airport. You may use the courtesy phone located at the hotel board between Bag Claims 1 and 2, or call your hotel directly:
The Madison Metro service to the Dane County Regional Airport is not well publicised -- I have seen flyers for it on Metro Buses, but I see no direct mention on the Madison Metro Web site.
It is perhaps a failing of train/public transportation advocacy that we don't do more to make the public aware of transportation options we have (the Memorial Union Hub, Metro bus service to Dane County Regional Airport, park-n-ride locations other than the off-the-beaten-path Harvard, Il for getting to Metra to get to Chicago).
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
pbouzide Meanwhile, the Badger/Greyhound depot on West Washington was demolished last fall. It's tough to get from Chicago or Milwaukee to downtown Madison by public transportation anymore...
Meanwhile, the Badger/Greyhound depot on West Washington was demolished last fall. It's tough to get from Chicago or Milwaukee to downtown Madison by public transportation anymore...
They tell me that the Badger Bus to Milwaukee stops at the University of Wisconsin-Madison Memorial Union, 800 Langdon Street -- with the Van Galder bus operating from there, Memorial Union has become the new public transportation hub that appears to be off the radar screen of every policy maker. No, this is not downtown Madison, just at the opposite end of State Street from downtown Madison.
A couple things. One is that now that the 800 million in ARRA money has been announced, everyone and his brother, myself included, has become a transportation planner and has ideas on where the train should go. This thing has been on the drawing boards for years, but now, perhaps when it is to late to change things without jacking up the costs, everyone has an opinion.
Two, the original plan was for a medium-speed 110 MPH train to pass through Madison on the way to St Paul. The 800 million only takes this thing as far as Madison. Yes, St Paul is "the next phase", but one can read the coffee grounds and squirrel entrails to figure out that this "first phase" is all we are going to get in the lifetimes of a lot of people. This first phase, the 8 billion in ARRA rail money, is perhaps the last-best-chance to demonstrate what public capital spending on rail can do before there is even any consideration of a "second phase."
Is Madison that big of a market to justify an 810 million dollar expenditure on a train? I guess this is also a fine time to be asking that question now that "we got the money." Is this train going to "work" if you have to make a 15 minute trip due north of the Capitol to park and then board this train?
I guess I got into "the act" too. I posed the hypothetical that maybe a Talgo set could run at 110 MPH on the "high iron" they are building through Watertown to Milwaukee, and make a first stop at Dane County Regional Airport station. That is the logical place for parking for people who need to drive to get to the train. Hypothetically speaking, it could then make a reverse move (it is a push-pull by the way -- we are not talking about doing this with the Empire Builder) down the WSOR "corridor" through the Isthums as the 30 MPH speeds I see the freights operate. This would not be 110 MPH, but it would be time competitive with the rate of bus or car travel through the Isthmus. Possible stopping points could Kohl Center, Camp Randal, VA/UW Hospital complex.
The intercity bus does just this kind of thing. It originates at Memorial Union, in the heart of the UW Campus but not a good place to park, although there is a parking ramp around the corner about 2 blocks walking distance. It then stops on the way in and out of town at the Dutch Mill Park-n-Ride off the Beltline Highway -- free parking if you get there early enough to get a spot.
That the train couldn't do the same thing, act as its own feeder service by making more than one local stop, operating within the speed restrictions of local traffic for the bus/branchline tracks for the train, in a way speaks of the inflexibility of the train as a transportation mode.
The plane can't do this, efforts to have helicopter service off the top of the Pan Am building in New York not withstanding. The whole point of surface transportation public modes is that what they lack in speed they make up in flexibility. For whatever the warts of bus service (my wife tells me the seats aren't nearly as tight as on an airplane), people have found ways to operate intercity buses with splendid flexibility and marvelously low overhead (the ticket counter for the intercity bus is a service counter at the Memorial Union). If the train can't do this, and I defer to the WisDOT and Amtrak people on what the train can and cannot do instead of playing armchair transportation planner and putting station stops all over Madison, it speaks to a limitation of the train.
pbouzide The following two options could work IMHO: 1. Locate the depot at First Avenue/E Washington where the former CNW from Milwaukee/Waukesha/Jefferson Jct/Lake Mills (intact to at least the Madison's eastern edge if not Cottage Grove) curved into the former CNW (now WSOR) freight yard at Johnson Street. 2. Establish a dedicated free shuttle bus downtown (thence UW) for embarking/disembarking passengers at an airport depot location.
The following two options could work IMHO:
1. Locate the depot at First Avenue/E Washington where the former CNW from Milwaukee/Waukesha/Jefferson Jct/Lake Mills (intact to at least the Madison's eastern edge if not Cottage Grove) curved into the former CNW (now WSOR) freight yard at Johnson Street.
2. Establish a dedicated free shuttle bus downtown (thence UW) for embarking/disembarking passengers at an airport depot location.
Only the ex-CNW Janesville-Madison via Evansville is gone. The ex-MILW WSOR Janseville-Madison via Milton Jct and Stoughton remains.
But the issue is there aren't enough funds to rehab track to 90-110 passenger standards in the existing corridor to the Twin Cities (and it'll be a major rebuild between Watertown and Madison and then later between Madison and Portage) *in addition to* Janesville-Madison (or Chicago-Janesville-Madison).
I understand the arguments for extending the service to downtown and UW. I just think the (eventual) slow-speed multiple-grade-crossing in-and-out reverse move is untenable for the Chicago-Twin Cities service. I have to think it would add an hour (or more) to the trip duration compared with the airport pause.
1. Locate the depot at First Avenue/E Washington where the former CNW from Milwaukee/Waukesha/Jefferson Jct/Lake Mills (intact to at least the Madison's eastern edge if not Cottage Grove) curved into the former CNW (now WSOR) freight yard at Johnson Street. This line crosses the planned Sun Prairie/Madison Hiawatha route a short distance NE of this possible depot site allowing a relatively low cost connection, with the resulting approximate 90 degree curve to Johnson St would position the consist in the NW direction to connect to the eventual Madison-Portage route to the Twin Cities. Shortcomings: it's still not downtown, but quite a bit closer than the airport or where an airport connector would cross E Washington. Additional grade crossing protection costs compared to all-new dedicated airport connecting the two lines far NE Madison. Advantages: no reverse move, reduced grade crossing protection costs compared with downtown run.
2. Establish a dedicated free shuttle bus downtown (thence UW) for embarking/disembarking passengers at an airport depot location. This service (did I mention free?) would be timed to each and every Hiawatha arrival. Shortcomings: it's a mode change (but don't people who fly do this as a matter of course?), poor public perception prior to start of Twin Cities service. Advantages: airport integration with medium-high speed passenger rail, shuttle service could expand to serve air passengers.
Nonetheless, the Badger and Van Galder bus comparisons (especially to more convenient terminii) made above are apt. I think acceptance of this competing rail mode is going to depend on pricing. If the NEC (and Megabus) is any indication, the bus operators don't have a lot to worry about.
blue streak 1Since I have no first hand knowledge of the physical layout of Madison the answer appears to me/. 1. Will the route CHI - Madison at least temporary termination in Madison. If so then go to downtown and the University. I That's the problem. Former Milwaukee Road track between roughly Milwaukee Street and downtown is now the Capital City bike trail. Former C&NW track from First and East Main to around South Baldwin & E Wilson appears to be out, according to Google maps. I suppose this track could be relaid, but it would be slow. Trains would continue past MG&E, the Monona Terrace Convention Center, and perhaps the Kohl Center. Track would have to be upgraded from 10 mph. A good chunk of the $800 million price tag is to upgrade Milwaukee Road's line from Watertown & Sun Prairie to Madison from 10 mph to 110 mph. That's a big speed increase! 2. When service to MSP - Madison is started a. Then consider a station location for HSR through service that will not slow service and keep the downtown station for terminating service or slower through service. The closest station to downtown along upgraded track would be near First St. and East Washington. b.. The service direct to downtown Madison from MSP could also go Madison - Janesvillev- CHI.. The speed limit on ex-Milwaukee Road track Madison-Janesville is no more than 30 mph. When Amtrak operated a mail train Chicago-Janesville, it was limited to 30 mph west of Fox Lake (end of Metra) and thus was not successful. The ex-C&NW line Madison-Janesville is out of service and was for a time severed at Oregon when a truck hit the RR overpass, but apparently the bridge is back in. Note: I have no idea of track conditions but this is another long range possibility.
Since I have no first hand knowledge of the physical layout of Madison the answer appears to me/.
1. Will the route CHI - Madison at least temporary termination in Madison. If so then go to downtown and the University. I
2. When service to MSP - Madison is started
a. Then consider a station location for HSR through service that will not slow service and keep the downtown station for terminating service or slower through service.
b.. The service direct to downtown Madison from MSP could also go Madison - Janesvillev- CHI..
Note: I have no idea of track conditions but this is another long range possibility.
blue streak 1 Note: I have no idea of track conditions but this is another long range possibility.
Bicycle trail.
Paul Milenkovic...On the other hand, the Isthmus commuter train or for whatever it matters, the northbound connection from Madison to get to St Paul, are going to be a long time in coming. Can we justify 800 million dollars just to get train service to Madison that plunks you down out by Dane County Regional Airport? When we have bus service from Memorial Union and Badger Bus on Wash Ave. to Milwaukee, Rockford, Chicago Union Station, Chicago O'Hare?
...On the other hand, the Isthmus commuter train or for whatever it matters, the northbound connection from Madison to get to St Paul, are going to be a long time in coming. Can we justify 800 million dollars just to get train service to Madison that plunks you down out by Dane County Regional Airport? When we have bus service from Memorial Union and Badger Bus on Wash Ave. to Milwaukee, Rockford, Chicago Union Station, Chicago O'Hare?
I agree totally that a single airport station would not be competitive with either bus or driving owing to much greater inconvenience of the location and additional travel time. Chicago-Madison Hiawatha service should exploit the opportunity for walking to the Capitol and University destinations. Legislators are a very small number of travelers compared to staff, lobbyists and interest groups, and state agency employee travel to the Capitol. Universities also generate substantial non-student travel for research and services and for health care at hospitals and clinics.
These trains are push-pull, so a backing move is a question of an engine driver walking 600 feet from one cab to the other.
Is this worth it, using an intercity train as its own feeder connection? Mind you, that train is not going to operate at 110 MPH through the Isthmus.
John Kneiling's Integral Train theory emphasized intermodal over branch line operations. The theory also emphasized intact consists over switching, and did not rule out running an integral train over a branch line to collect its load prior to heading out on the main line.
On the other hand, the Isthmus commuter train or for whatever it matters, the northbound connection from Madison to get to St Paul, are going to be a long time in coming. Can we justify 800 million dollars just to get train service to Madison that plunks you down out by Dane County Regional Airport? When we have bus service from Memorial Union and Badger Bus on Wash Ave. to Milwaukee, Rockford, Chicago Union Station, Chicago O'Hare?
As the tag line from one of those Star Trek movies, the human adventure is just beginning.
HarveyK400 Everyone involved seems to have a favorite single station location for Madison - the airport 6 miles north, Yahara 1.7 miles east of the Capitol between Washington Av and 1st St, Monona Terrace 0.2 mile southeast of the Capitol, and The Kohl Center 0.8 west of the Capitol in the southeast corner of the University of Wisconsin Campus. Why just one? Let me throw in my . At a minimum, Hiawathas from Milwaukee and Chicago need to go to Monona Landing within walking distance from the Capitol. Hiawathas could just as easily continue to The Kohl Center, Randall Av near the stadium and the campus center and Highland Av at the Veterans Hospital and new university hospital and clinics, all destinations made convenient by extended service. A stop at the proposed Yahara site would not be possible for continuing to the capitol and university; and is a poor compromise for eventual service from the north. A suburban stop farther east near the East Towne Mall would be a better idea until a local rail service is instituted to the Dade County Airport which would provide more frequent connections to the Capitol and University. A local rail transit service could run from Route 19 (at I-39/90/94) north of Madison to the Dade Co Airport, Commercial Av, E Washington St, Monona-Capitol, W Washington-Kohl, Randall Av, Highland Av-VA, Shorewood Bl, Whitney Wy, Parmenter St-Middleton, and Deming Wy-Middleton.
Everyone involved seems to have a favorite single station location for Madison - the airport 6 miles north, Yahara 1.7 miles east of the Capitol between Washington Av and 1st St, Monona Terrace 0.2 mile southeast of the Capitol, and The Kohl Center 0.8 west of the Capitol in the southeast corner of the University of Wisconsin Campus.
Why just one? Let me throw in my .
Yup. I think we should have rail service to the Dade Co Airport, and we should also have a stop in Broward Co. That way I can take a train straight to see the family in Florida without bothering with changing planes in Chicago, Memphis, or Atlanta.
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