Everyone involved seems to have a favorite single station location for Madison - the airport 6 miles north, Yahara 1.7 miles east of the Capitol between Washington Av and 1st St, Monona Terrace 0.2 mile southeast of the Capitol, and The Kohl Center 0.8 west of the Capitol in the southeast corner of the University of Wisconsin Campus.
Why just one? Let me throw in my .
HarveyK400 Everyone involved seems to have a favorite single station location for Madison - the airport 6 miles north, Yahara 1.7 miles east of the Capitol between Washington Av and 1st St, Monona Terrace 0.2 mile southeast of the Capitol, and The Kohl Center 0.8 west of the Capitol in the southeast corner of the University of Wisconsin Campus. Why just one? Let me throw in my . At a minimum, Hiawathas from Milwaukee and Chicago need to go to Monona Landing within walking distance from the Capitol. Hiawathas could just as easily continue to The Kohl Center, Randall Av near the stadium and the campus center and Highland Av at the Veterans Hospital and new university hospital and clinics, all destinations made convenient by extended service. A stop at the proposed Yahara site would not be possible for continuing to the capitol and university; and is a poor compromise for eventual service from the north. A suburban stop farther east near the East Towne Mall would be a better idea until a local rail service is instituted to the Dade County Airport which would provide more frequent connections to the Capitol and University. A local rail transit service could run from Route 19 (at I-39/90/94) north of Madison to the Dade Co Airport, Commercial Av, E Washington St, Monona-Capitol, W Washington-Kohl, Randall Av, Highland Av-VA, Shorewood Bl, Whitney Wy, Parmenter St-Middleton, and Deming Wy-Middleton.
Yup. I think we should have rail service to the Dade Co Airport, and we should also have a stop in Broward Co. That way I can take a train straight to see the family in Florida without bothering with changing planes in Chicago, Memphis, or Atlanta.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
These trains are push-pull, so a backing move is a question of an engine driver walking 600 feet from one cab to the other.
Is this worth it, using an intercity train as its own feeder connection? Mind you, that train is not going to operate at 110 MPH through the Isthmus.
John Kneiling's Integral Train theory emphasized intermodal over branch line operations. The theory also emphasized intact consists over switching, and did not rule out running an integral train over a branch line to collect its load prior to heading out on the main line.
On the other hand, the Isthmus commuter train or for whatever it matters, the northbound connection from Madison to get to St Paul, are going to be a long time in coming. Can we justify 800 million dollars just to get train service to Madison that plunks you down out by Dane County Regional Airport? When we have bus service from Memorial Union and Badger Bus on Wash Ave. to Milwaukee, Rockford, Chicago Union Station, Chicago O'Hare?
As the tag line from one of those Star Trek movies, the human adventure is just beginning.
Paul Milenkovic...On the other hand, the Isthmus commuter train or for whatever it matters, the northbound connection from Madison to get to St Paul, are going to be a long time in coming. Can we justify 800 million dollars just to get train service to Madison that plunks you down out by Dane County Regional Airport? When we have bus service from Memorial Union and Badger Bus on Wash Ave. to Milwaukee, Rockford, Chicago Union Station, Chicago O'Hare?
...On the other hand, the Isthmus commuter train or for whatever it matters, the northbound connection from Madison to get to St Paul, are going to be a long time in coming. Can we justify 800 million dollars just to get train service to Madison that plunks you down out by Dane County Regional Airport? When we have bus service from Memorial Union and Badger Bus on Wash Ave. to Milwaukee, Rockford, Chicago Union Station, Chicago O'Hare?
I agree totally that a single airport station would not be competitive with either bus or driving owing to much greater inconvenience of the location and additional travel time. Chicago-Madison Hiawatha service should exploit the opportunity for walking to the Capitol and University destinations. Legislators are a very small number of travelers compared to staff, lobbyists and interest groups, and state agency employee travel to the Capitol. Universities also generate substantial non-student travel for research and services and for health care at hospitals and clinics.
Since I have no first hand knowledge of the physical layout of Madison the answer appears to me/.
1. Will the route CHI - Madison at least temporary termination in Madison. If so then go to downtown and the University. I
2. When service to MSP - Madison is started
a. Then consider a station location for HSR through service that will not slow service and keep the downtown station for terminating service or slower through service.
b.. The service direct to downtown Madison from MSP could also go Madison - Janesvillev- CHI..
Note: I have no idea of track conditions but this is another long range possibility.
blue streak 1 Note: I have no idea of track conditions but this is another long range possibility.
Bicycle trail.
blue streak 1Since I have no first hand knowledge of the physical layout of Madison the answer appears to me/. 1. Will the route CHI - Madison at least temporary termination in Madison. If so then go to downtown and the University. I That's the problem. Former Milwaukee Road track between roughly Milwaukee Street and downtown is now the Capital City bike trail. Former C&NW track from First and East Main to around South Baldwin & E Wilson appears to be out, according to Google maps. I suppose this track could be relaid, but it would be slow. Trains would continue past MG&E, the Monona Terrace Convention Center, and perhaps the Kohl Center. Track would have to be upgraded from 10 mph. A good chunk of the $800 million price tag is to upgrade Milwaukee Road's line from Watertown & Sun Prairie to Madison from 10 mph to 110 mph. That's a big speed increase! 2. When service to MSP - Madison is started a. Then consider a station location for HSR through service that will not slow service and keep the downtown station for terminating service or slower through service. The closest station to downtown along upgraded track would be near First St. and East Washington. b.. The service direct to downtown Madison from MSP could also go Madison - Janesvillev- CHI.. The speed limit on ex-Milwaukee Road track Madison-Janesville is no more than 30 mph. When Amtrak operated a mail train Chicago-Janesville, it was limited to 30 mph west of Fox Lake (end of Metra) and thus was not successful. The ex-C&NW line Madison-Janesville is out of service and was for a time severed at Oregon when a truck hit the RR overpass, but apparently the bridge is back in. Note: I have no idea of track conditions but this is another long range possibility.
Only the ex-CNW Janesville-Madison via Evansville is gone. The ex-MILW WSOR Janseville-Madison via Milton Jct and Stoughton remains.
But the issue is there aren't enough funds to rehab track to 90-110 passenger standards in the existing corridor to the Twin Cities (and it'll be a major rebuild between Watertown and Madison and then later between Madison and Portage) *in addition to* Janesville-Madison (or Chicago-Janesville-Madison).
I understand the arguments for extending the service to downtown and UW. I just think the (eventual) slow-speed multiple-grade-crossing in-and-out reverse move is untenable for the Chicago-Twin Cities service. I have to think it would add an hour (or more) to the trip duration compared with the airport pause.
The following two options could work IMHO:
1. Locate the depot at First Avenue/E Washington where the former CNW from Milwaukee/Waukesha/Jefferson Jct/Lake Mills (intact to at least the Madison's eastern edge if not Cottage Grove) curved into the former CNW (now WSOR) freight yard at Johnson Street. This line crosses the planned Sun Prairie/Madison Hiawatha route a short distance NE of this possible depot site allowing a relatively low cost connection, with the resulting approximate 90 degree curve to Johnson St would position the consist in the NW direction to connect to the eventual Madison-Portage route to the Twin Cities. Shortcomings: it's still not downtown, but quite a bit closer than the airport or where an airport connector would cross E Washington. Additional grade crossing protection costs compared to all-new dedicated airport connecting the two lines far NE Madison. Advantages: no reverse move, reduced grade crossing protection costs compared with downtown run.
2. Establish a dedicated free shuttle bus downtown (thence UW) for embarking/disembarking passengers at an airport depot location. This service (did I mention free?) would be timed to each and every Hiawatha arrival. Shortcomings: it's a mode change (but don't people who fly do this as a matter of course?), poor public perception prior to start of Twin Cities service. Advantages: airport integration with medium-high speed passenger rail, shuttle service could expand to serve air passengers.
Nonetheless, the Badger and Van Galder bus comparisons (especially to more convenient terminii) made above are apt. I think acceptance of this competing rail mode is going to depend on pricing. If the NEC (and Megabus) is any indication, the bus operators don't have a lot to worry about.
pbouzide The following two options could work IMHO: 1. Locate the depot at First Avenue/E Washington where the former CNW from Milwaukee/Waukesha/Jefferson Jct/Lake Mills (intact to at least the Madison's eastern edge if not Cottage Grove) curved into the former CNW (now WSOR) freight yard at Johnson Street. 2. Establish a dedicated free shuttle bus downtown (thence UW) for embarking/disembarking passengers at an airport depot location.
1. Locate the depot at First Avenue/E Washington where the former CNW from Milwaukee/Waukesha/Jefferson Jct/Lake Mills (intact to at least the Madison's eastern edge if not Cottage Grove) curved into the former CNW (now WSOR) freight yard at Johnson Street.
2. Establish a dedicated free shuttle bus downtown (thence UW) for embarking/disembarking passengers at an airport depot location.
pbouzide Meanwhile, the Badger/Greyhound depot on West Washington was demolished last fall. It's tough to get from Chicago or Milwaukee to downtown Madison by public transportation anymore...
Meanwhile, the Badger/Greyhound depot on West Washington was demolished last fall. It's tough to get from Chicago or Milwaukee to downtown Madison by public transportation anymore...
They tell me that the Badger Bus to Milwaukee stops at the University of Wisconsin-Madison Memorial Union, 800 Langdon Street -- with the Van Galder bus operating from there, Memorial Union has become the new public transportation hub that appears to be off the radar screen of every policy maker. No, this is not downtown Madison, just at the opposite end of State Street from downtown Madison.
A couple things. One is that now that the 800 million in ARRA money has been announced, everyone and his brother, myself included, has become a transportation planner and has ideas on where the train should go. This thing has been on the drawing boards for years, but now, perhaps when it is to late to change things without jacking up the costs, everyone has an opinion.
Two, the original plan was for a medium-speed 110 MPH train to pass through Madison on the way to St Paul. The 800 million only takes this thing as far as Madison. Yes, St Paul is "the next phase", but one can read the coffee grounds and squirrel entrails to figure out that this "first phase" is all we are going to get in the lifetimes of a lot of people. This first phase, the 8 billion in ARRA rail money, is perhaps the last-best-chance to demonstrate what public capital spending on rail can do before there is even any consideration of a "second phase."
Is Madison that big of a market to justify an 810 million dollar expenditure on a train? I guess this is also a fine time to be asking that question now that "we got the money." Is this train going to "work" if you have to make a 15 minute trip due north of the Capitol to park and then board this train?
I guess I got into "the act" too. I posed the hypothetical that maybe a Talgo set could run at 110 MPH on the "high iron" they are building through Watertown to Milwaukee, and make a first stop at Dane County Regional Airport station. That is the logical place for parking for people who need to drive to get to the train. Hypothetically speaking, it could then make a reverse move (it is a push-pull by the way -- we are not talking about doing this with the Empire Builder) down the WSOR "corridor" through the Isthums as the 30 MPH speeds I see the freights operate. This would not be 110 MPH, but it would be time competitive with the rate of bus or car travel through the Isthmus. Possible stopping points could Kohl Center, Camp Randal, VA/UW Hospital complex.
The intercity bus does just this kind of thing. It originates at Memorial Union, in the heart of the UW Campus but not a good place to park, although there is a parking ramp around the corner about 2 blocks walking distance. It then stops on the way in and out of town at the Dutch Mill Park-n-Ride off the Beltline Highway -- free parking if you get there early enough to get a spot.
That the train couldn't do the same thing, act as its own feeder service by making more than one local stop, operating within the speed restrictions of local traffic for the bus/branchline tracks for the train, in a way speaks of the inflexibility of the train as a transportation mode.
The plane can't do this, efforts to have helicopter service off the top of the Pan Am building in New York not withstanding. The whole point of surface transportation public modes is that what they lack in speed they make up in flexibility. For whatever the warts of bus service (my wife tells me the seats aren't nearly as tight as on an airplane), people have found ways to operate intercity buses with splendid flexibility and marvelously low overhead (the ticket counter for the intercity bus is a service counter at the Memorial Union). If the train can't do this, and I defer to the WisDOT and Amtrak people on what the train can and cannot do instead of playing armchair transportation planner and putting station stops all over Madison, it speaks to a limitation of the train.
For those interested in getting between Dane County Regional Airport and points in Madison, see http://www.msnairport.com/guide/transportation.aspx
where
Madison Metro Transit System (608) 266-4466 TDD (608) 267-1143 Website: www.mymetrobus.com
Route 20 runs between the North Transfer Point and East Towne Mall via the Airport every thirty minutes during weekdays, and hourly weeknights, weekends and holidays. For service from the Airport to downtown Madison or the UW campus area, passengers should board buses reading "Route 20 - North Transfer Point." Buses reading "Route 20 - East Towne Mall" would carry passengers to points east of the airport, including the MATC campus area, and eventually, East Towne Mall.
The following area hotels may have a courtesy vehicle to handle your transportation to or from the Dane County Regional Airport. You may use the courtesy phone located at the hotel board between Bag Claims 1 and 2, or call your hotel directly:
The Madison Metro service to the Dane County Regional Airport is not well publicised -- I have seen flyers for it on Metro Buses, but I see no direct mention on the Madison Metro Web site.
It is perhaps a failing of train/public transportation advocacy that we don't do more to make the public aware of transportation options we have (the Memorial Union Hub, Metro bus service to Dane County Regional Airport, park-n-ride locations other than the off-the-beaten-path Harvard, Il for getting to Metra to get to Chicago).
In a "sprawly" area, good roads and parking are probably more important than being near the traditional town center.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmanndIt should be noted that some of the most sucessfull stations on the NEC are not, or, at least were not, built in "downtown". 30th St in Phila is a mile from Center City Phila. Penna Sta in Baltimore is at least a mile from downtown Baltimore. Even South Sta. in Boston is a hike from the center of town. In a "sprawly" area, good roads and parking are probably more important than being near the traditional town center.
Being large trip generators doesn't mean optimal. Philadelphia and Baltimore may have good connections to downtown; but how do trip attraction rates compare with other cities? How many more travelers will fly or drive simply because a transfer is needed to reach a downtown business destination? Obviously, Philadelphia thought downtown access was vital and a priority for suburban services. Is there a corresponding difference in the percentages of those originating or terminating within walking distance or a short cab ride of Penn Station New York rather than Wall Street?
My experience with Springfield, Illinois is that the close proximity to the State Capitol contributes to substantial ridership during sessions. I would suspect the same could be true at Madison. Likewise, additional stops at campus locations within walking distance of major travel generators also would attract much more ridership to Madison from the Milwaukee Area and Racine. Traffic from Madison is more dispersed and I would agree needs to have convenient road access and sufficient transit service and parking.
I'm not train-savvy, but I'm very interested in the fate of the Madison station. Could anyone shed some light on what might be some really uninformed questions from a train / public transport newbie?
1. What's the advantage of putting the station at the airport, in the absence of a commuter rail line or bus hub? I can't imagine we're going to get too many people coming from Milwaukee or Chicago to catch a plane in Madison -- our airport is too little. But is there some other forward-thinking urban planning reason to have the station there?
2. From the Yahara Station proposals, I thought that location would eliminate the backing-out problem that would come with a Monona Terrace / Kohl Center location. But are there other problems with the existing track that would still make that location unworkable?
3. I also thought that the HSR route is already set, and that it's expected to go past the proposed Yahara Station site whether there's a station there or not. Is that not right?
4. Does anyone know of any competing site plans -- actual plans -- other than the airport and Yahara? I keep hearing murmurs of other possible sites, but I haven't been able to find any actual proposals.
Service from the Twin Cities will not arrive soon enough for morning trips to Milwaukee, Chicago, and intermediate points. Similarly, trains to the Twin Cities will not provide later service to Madison. As a result, at least a couple trains must be based in Madison; and Madison turns may need to supplement Twin Cities trains.
The dispersed nature of travel from Madison allows some freedom in finding a station site that is relatively central to the area. This would rule out the airport site. Travel to Madison has some major travel attractions in the Capitol and the University. These would be very convenient to an existing rail line and could be exploited more fully.
A more direct connection to downtown and the campus area may be possible with rebuilding the former Milwaukee route along Eastwood and Wilson beginning at the former MR-CNW crossing. With adequate right of way control, 40-60 mph may be possible. I don't know if the cost, including rebuilding the streets, would be justified with the limited service.
HarveyK400 A more direct connection to downtown and the campus area may be possible with rebuilding the former Milwaukee route along Eastwood and Wilson beginning at the former MR-CNW crossing. With adequate right of way control, 40-60 mph may be possible. I don't know if the cost, including rebuilding the streets, would be justified with the limited service.
That appears to be a long range plan. In the short run it appears to me to just get a stop along the MKE - MSP route. That appears to follow the incremental approach that has been sucessfully done in Europe especially France. Also the UK.
blue streak 1That appears to be a long range plan. In the short run it appears to me to just get a stop along the MKE - MSP route. That appears to follow the incremental approach that has been sucessfully done in Europe especially France. Also the UK.
Trouble is, Twin Cities (MSP) with the rehab for Madison-Portage is indefinite. I'm sure Madison was a tough choice for the Milwaukee Road or they would have routed the Hiawatha that way instead of through Columbus. Both the CNW and MR had their problems going from Milwaukee to Madison. Furthermore, there is no fast alignment.
One interesting alternative now would be the CP out of Milwaukee to Duplaineville and a new connection to the CN, south to Waukesha, west on the WSOR (former MR) through through Whitewater to Milton Jct, north to the former CNW roadbed on the Lake Monona causeway, and east to Monona Landing two blocks from the Capitol and in the "right" direction to continue north, a distance of 98 miles compared to the 84 mile route by way of Watertown.
I caught a comment on the study of extending Metra North Central service from Antioch, IL to Burlington, WI. The connection at Duplaineville would facilitate a third route to Chicago on the CN through Waukesha and Burlington.
Maybe putting Madison on the CHI-MKE-MSP Corridor is politically driven; but I wonder if a comparison had been made taking into account the greater ridership to Madison compared to the reduced ridership for the longer trip between other station pairs?
I agree that there will be no direct high speed rail service between Madison and the Twin Cities anytime soon. I recently talked to my Minnesota state representative Melissa Hortman who serves on the transportation committee in the Minnesota legislature. I asked her why the Twin Cities - Chicago was not funded this time. She was blunt, Minnesota was not ready. She used the analogy of buying a house. Minnesota only recently figured out it wanted to buy a house,Wisconsin on the other hand was ready to close on the house.
I feel that the focus of high speed rail in Wisconsin should be on Madison to Milwaukee and Chicago and serve the business community and the UW. It seems to me that Madison has become much more than the state capital and home of the Badgers. I have noticed that the Northwestern part of Madison has really developed since the late 1980's. I think that putting a station at Dane County airport makes sense. People from Janesville, Beloit,and even Rockford may find Madison a better choice than O'Hare. It could mean better air service to Madison.
HarveyK400Being large trip generators doesn't mean optimal.
I would also submit that every airport is in a less than desirable location w.r.t. to their urban area, yet there are no shortage of passengers....
CG96021. The major advantage the airport location offers is parking, and a parking ramp. Other spots closer to downtown are very constrained in their parking offerings. 2. If the Yahara station proposal is at the East Washington Ave location, the main problem is (again) limited parking opportunities, and also a tough spot for trains such as the Empire Builder (1400 feet long at certain times of the year). We would have to pull through and not block the road, in order to stop at the station. 3. [In response to a question regarding the Yahara Station site being on the proposed route.] Correct. The proposed station is at the present day location of the Fiore (sp?) Shopping center. 4. [Regarding other sites] I don't know. Maybe the site of the former MILW station on West Washington Ave -- though that requires a back-up move!
1. One advantage of the airport site is no land acquisition cost. The county already owns the land. The rail station site is in the economy/overflow parking lot. Plenty of surface parking. It is, however, a long hike to the air terminal and its amenities.
2. The parking situation at the Yahara Station site depends on how it is developed. Presently, there's the underutilized Fiore Shopping Center on the Washington Avenue end, a city fleet garage at the Johnson Street end, and a couple of other properties in between. If it gets developed as a multi-use facility, a parking garage would likely be needed. If its just a station, there's probably enough space for surface parking.
As I recall, the Empire Builder would likely stay on the present route on the CP main through Columbus.
3. The Yahara Station is also in an area where trains will have slowed down already, having passed through a residential neighborhood and in the midst of a tight curve. On the way to the airport, the train would pass through the WSOR yards and another residential neighborhood. It would not have a chance to accelerate significantly before arriving at the airport station. Figure in another 10 minutes of train travel time to get to the airport, plus another 5 minutes in a car, taxi or bus to get to central, south or west sides of Madison. Add up the minutes, and a Madison-Milwaukee-Chicago train becomes less competitive.
4. The other site that is being talked about is the site of the stalled development at Union Corners, the site of the old Ray-O-Vac factory. This site did not come up in any of the studies, but it's on the route, there's plenty of track space, possibly long enough for the EB, and it is well served by local bus. A story in today's Wisconsin State Journal says the city is pondering purchasing the land.
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt_and_politics/article_fb8e00d2-8bd3-5656-8b2a-1b6708c7e588.html
Another writer mentioned that Badger Bus (Madison-Milwaukee) and Van Galder (O'Hare) use the curb at the UW Memorial Union. It's convenient for students on campus, but it is a congested area with little parking for drop-offs and pickups. The public parking ramp is two blocks away. The university is not terribly happy with the situation. As Badger Bus was getting rid of its terminal, it mentioned the possibility of using the curb at Union South, presently under reconstruction, and got a chilly response from UW.
Greyhound, formerly a tenant at the Badger Bus station, now operates a station on the far east side of town, a location poorly served by local bus, and a long taxi ride from the center of town. The Yahara Station and Union Corners sites are both logical places for multimodal terminals serving rail and intercity bus. They're both on the East Washington corridor, easily accessed from outlying areas, and both sites are not terribly far off I-39/90/94.
RwulfsbergCG96021. The major advantage the airport location offers is parking, and a parking ramp. Other spots closer to downtown are very constrained in their parking offerings. 2. If the Yahara station proposal is at the East Washington Ave location, the main problem is (again) limited parking opportunities, and also a tough spot for trains such as the Empire Builder (1400 feet long at certain times of the year). We would have to pull through and not block the road, in order to stop at the station. 3. [In response to a question regarding the Yahara Station site being on the proposed route.] Correct. The proposed station is at the present day location of the Fiore (sp?) Shopping center. 4. [Regarding other sites] I don't know. Maybe the site of the former MILW station on West Washington Ave -- though that requires a back-up move! 1. One advantage of the airport site is no land acquisition cost. The county already owns the land. The rail station site is in the economy/overflow parking lot. Plenty of surface parking. It is, however, a long hike to the air terminal and its amenities.Aerial photos show the current Dade Co Airport lots being used near capacity. If the unused and undeveloped area south of the airport's remote lot are used for Amtrak, I estimate that would provide for 600-800 spaces and projects to a capacity for as many as 1,200 passengers a day before ridership would begin to be constrained. Sadly, the track comes within 100 ft of the terminal across a ditch and service roads; but then parking would be inconvenient or dependent on a shuttle that may need more than one trip and adding time to the trip for some.The problem remains that the airport entails a 6-mile, 10-minute (20 minutes overall) back-haul for most travelers from Madison headed east. This is a pretty big head start for a bus or for driving.I can understand avoiding the cost of land acquisition for a terminal by using publicly-owned property; but capacity and greater overall travel time will not woo many riders, certainly not enough to begin to justify the investment. 2. The parking situation at the Yahara Station site depends on how it is developed. Presently, there's the underutilized Fiore Shopping Center on the Washington Avenue end, a city fleet garage at the Johnson Street end, and a couple of other properties in between. If it gets developed as a multi-use facility, a parking garage would likely be needed. If its just a station, there's probably enough space for surface parking.The Fiore property with a small station would leave about 160 surface parking spaces. If this equates to only around 250 passengers a day; why would Wisconsin spend almost a billion dollars on this project? Even a parking deck will only multiply the number of spaces by floors; and I'm sure the neighbors will not want a structure more than two or three decks high.Moving the City garage would double these numbers. As I recall, the Empire Builder would likely stay on the present route on the CP main through Columbus.That would be a shame since Madison holds much more of an attraction over Columbus from Minnesota and beyond. 3. The Yahara Station is also in an area where trains will have slowed down already, having passed through a residential neighborhood and in the midst of a tight curve. On the way to the airport, the train would pass through the WSOR yards and another residential neighborhood. It would not have a chance to accelerate significantly before arriving at the airport station. Figure in another 10 minutes of train travel time to get to the airport, plus another 5 minutes in a car, taxi or bus to get to central, south or west sides of Madison. Add up the minutes, and a Madison-Milwaukee-Chicago train becomes less competitive.There is a very sharp (10-deg?) curve at the former CNW-MR crossing a mile east of the Yahara station. The existing connection from the former CNW at Yahara back to the former MR seems to be over a yard ladder track. A new connection could be built from Johnson Street bypassing the yard.4. The other site that is being talked about is the site of the stalled development at Union Corners, the site of the old Ray-O-Vac factory. This site did not come up in any of the studies, but it's on the route, there's plenty of track space, possibly long enough for the EB, and it is well served by local bus. A story in today's Wisconsin State Journal says the city is pondering purchasing the land.http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt_and_politics/article_fb8e00d2-8bd3-5656-8b2a-1b6708c7e588.htmlUnion Corners would be in the southeast quadrant at Washington & Milwaukee. The site might have surface parking for about 850 cars.Another writer mentioned that Badger Bus (Madison-Milwaukee) and Van Galder (O'Hare) use the curb at the UW Memorial Union. It's convenient for students on campus, but it is a congested area with little parking for drop-offs and pickups. The public parking ramp is two blocks away. The university is not terribly happy with the situation. As Badger Bus was getting rid of its terminal, it mentioned the possibility of using the curb at Union South, presently under reconstruction, and got a chilly response from UW.Greyhound, formerly a tenant at the Badger Bus station, now operates a station on the far east side of town, a location poorly served by local bus, and a long taxi ride from the center of town. The Yahara Station and Union Corners sites are both logical places for multimodal terminals serving rail and intercity bus. They're both on the East Washington corridor, easily accessed from outlying areas, and both sites are not terribly far off I-39/90/94.Yahara is closer to downtown, the capitol, and the UW campus; but parking and an intercity bus intermodal terminal may be too limited for the potential demand.
Aerial photos show the current Dade Co Airport lots being used near capacity. If the unused and undeveloped area south of the airport's remote lot are used for Amtrak, I estimate that would provide for 600-800 spaces and projects to a capacity for as many as 1,200 passengers a day before ridership would begin to be constrained.
Sadly, the track comes within 100 ft of the terminal across a ditch and service roads; but then parking would be inconvenient or dependent on a shuttle that may need more than one trip and adding time to the trip for some.
The problem remains that the airport entails a 6-mile, 10-minute (20 minutes overall) back-haul for most travelers from Madison headed east. This is a pretty big head start for a bus or for driving.
I can understand avoiding the cost of land acquisition for a terminal by using publicly-owned property; but capacity and greater overall travel time will not woo many riders, certainly not enough to begin to justify the investment.
The Fiore property with a small station would leave about 160 surface parking spaces. If this equates to only around 250 passengers a day; why would Wisconsin spend almost a billion dollars on this project? Even a parking deck will only multiply the number of spaces by floors; and I'm sure the neighbors will not want a structure more than two or three decks high.
Moving the City garage would double these numbers.
That would be a shame since Madison holds much more of an attraction over Columbus from Minnesota and beyond.
There is a very sharp (10-deg?) curve at the former CNW-MR crossing a mile east of the Yahara station.
The existing connection from the former CNW at Yahara back to the former MR seems to be over a yard ladder track. A new connection could be built from Johnson Street bypassing the yard.
Union Corners would be in the southeast quadrant at Washington & Milwaukee. The site might have surface parking for about 850 cars.
Yahara is closer to downtown, the capitol, and the UW campus; but parking and an intercity bus intermodal terminal may be too limited for the potential demand.
Rwulfsberg Another writer mentioned that Badger Bus (Madison-Milwaukee) and Van Galder (O'Hare) use the curb at the UW Memorial Union. It's convenient for students on campus, but it is a congested area with little parking for drop-offs and pickups. The public parking ramp is two blocks away. The university is not terribly happy with the situation. As Badger Bus was getting rid of its terminal, it mentioned the possibility of using the curb at Union South, presently under reconstruction, and got a chilly response from UW.
Who, representing "the university" thinks that the Memorial Union curb is a bad place as an intercity bus hub? What does that person want?
Yes, Langdon in front of the Union is congested as all get-go. But it is right in the heart of the U and tremendously convenient to the students and to faculty and staff members who take that bus to O'Hare or Downtown Chicago on business for the University. If you can tell me who at the U thinks that way, I can organize a posse to have that person thrashed with a "clue bat." Besides, if one wants parking or more convenient drop-off, there is the Dutch Mill park-n-ride on the way out of town. What more do you want? A convenient although necessarily congested location (where they sell bus tickets at a Memorial Union counter, at that), and an "outlying" location with parking and pickup-standing spots.
I am conflicted in two directions by this thing. On one hand, everyone and his brother now has an expert opinion about the airport station, and after all is said and done, the advocacy community may yet make a hash of this thing we worked for over 20 years to get.
On the other hand, I looked out of my office window, and I saw a chartered motorcoach bus back up the McClain Practice Facility -- most likely a sports team has a bus ride to particpate in a game in Big Ten competition someplace. Every driveway is a usable "bus terminal", but a second pickup-dropoff of passengers for the Hiawatha (terminating in Madison -- the St Paul extension is years away) is a "huge deal." There is even a passenger platform across the quadrangle where I work on the WSOR branch, but gosh forbid were the Hiawatha to even stop there, even on a Football Saturday.
If they do this thing, they would be smart if they stay outside the city limits of Madison.
Else, if they do this thing, they should just make the western endpoint a platform at HWY 51 /(Stoughton Rd./CommercialAve.), or if not there, then Lien/Thomson Rds. Think park and ride.
I think it would be a better use of the money to acquire locomotives that are well suited to the Talgos. Second, buy additional trainsets. Third, restore CP second track out of Milwaukee to Watertown, and extend Hiawatha service through western Milwaukee suburbs to Watertown.
(Many Madison people traveling to central Chicago now drive to Mitchell Field Amtrak station in Milwaukee, and take the Hiawatha's into Chicago and back. These people spend to save time and hassle).
Given a large number of UW students are from or going to the Chicago area, I wonder if any thought has been given to reviving one of the old, non-Milwaukee routes?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Paul MilenkovicRwulfsberg Another writer mentioned that Badger Bus (Madison-Milwaukee) and Van Galder (O'Hare) use the curb at the UW Memorial Union. It's convenient for students on campus, but it is a congested area with little parking for drop-offs and pickups. The public parking ramp is two blocks away. The university is not terribly happy with the situation. As Badger Bus was getting rid of its terminal, it mentioned the possibility of using the curb at Union South, presently under reconstruction, and got a chilly response from UW. Who, representing "the university" thinks that the Memorial Union curb is a bad place as an intercity bus hub? What does that person want? Yes, Langdon in front of the Union is congested as all get-go. But it is right in the heart of the U and tremendously convenient to the students and to faculty and staff members who take that bus to O'Hare or Downtown Chicago on business for the University. If you can tell me who at the U thinks that way, I can organize a posse to have that person thrashed with a "clue bat." Besides, if one wants parking or more convenient drop-off, there is the Dutch Mill park-n-ride on the way out of town. What more do you want? A convenient although necessarily congested location (where they sell bus tickets at a Memorial Union counter, at that), and an "outlying" location with parking and pickup-standing spots.
In looking for the article, I see I have to back off from that posting. There's no mention of the UW's or the Union's attitude toward the present situation on Landon Street, but the Union's position on Badger Bus using Union South was articulated through a spokesperson:
http://www.thedailypage.com/isthmus/article.php?article=24955
A quote from a local alder I find credible: "The Memorial Union becomes a de facto bus depot, which nobody wants."
http://www.thedailypage.com/isthmus/article.php?article=26416
Dutch Mill Park and Ride works well as an outlying stop for Van Galder to Chicago, but Badger Bus to Milwaukee has no similar outlying location, just a couple of curb stops on East Washington. Megabus between Chicago and the Twin Cities makes a stop in either Madison (Dutch Mill) or Milwaukee (curbside across from the intermodal station), but never both. I can only guess that lack of a decent stop site near the intersection of I-90 and I-94 is a factor.
As long as I'm quoting Isthmus articles, this one from last summer covers both the rail station site and the intercity bus problem. I agree with the writer that the present local bus service to the airport is woefully inadequate. Airport buses shuttle to/from a transfer point. A ride downtown involves one transfer. To my home it's two transfers. The bus system starts up too early to serve the first flights out and shuts down too early to serve the last arrivals.
http://www.thedailypage.com/isthmus/article.php?article=26299
Again not knowing the physical layout of Madison but recognizing the lake
1. Maybe a station outside the city limits (airport or otherwise)
2. Then only a platform at the UW for students and for home football games. Its time to start the football specials again. Physical layout make that possible? When service MAD - MSP is initiated then these 2 stations could be used for that service as well as long as the design of the outside city limits station anticipates that future use.
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