AntonioFP45WL, Here in Florida the passenger rail advocacy group has been urging Miami-Tampa-Gainesville-Atlanta for decades! Preliminary stats showed that it is a viable route. But, neither CSX nor congress were interested in allowing Amtrak that opportunity. There are so many markets where medium distance Amtrak service has good potential. Goes back to the old saying that you get what you pay for.
Here in Florida the passenger rail advocacy group has been urging Miami-Tampa-Gainesville-Atlanta for decades! Preliminary stats showed that it is a viable route. But, neither CSX nor congress were interested in allowing Amtrak that opportunity. There are so many markets where medium distance Amtrak service has good potential. Goes back to the old saying that you get what you pay for.
As you may have heard, Florida, Amtrak & CSX seem to have agreed to upgrade and concentrate passenger service on the former ACL through Orlando and freight on the former SAL through Waldo, the former Amtrak stop for Gainesville. Ironically, the old SAL is the faster, better engineered route for higher speeds (quite the reverse of North Carolina); but that advantage is lost serving Orlando.
My folks lived in Ocala; and I had an opportunity to return to Chicago on the Floridian. After delays for separate grade crossing collisions for both the southbound and northbound trains near and in Ocala, I was clocking sustained 103 mph running north of Gainesville behind an SDP40.
My take is that a pair of round trips between Jacksonville and Tampa would work without over-taxing CSX.
WhiteLeatherI lived in Atlanta for 9 yrs and rode the Crescent north 1-2 times a year. Over those 9 yrs, the price of the sleeper tripled, nearly quadrupled. Early in my time there (early 2000s), a coach car was added to the NB Crescent, taken off the SB, so a long stop was necessary. That stopped around 03 - 04, I seem to recall. Not sure why - there was always a lot of people getting on NB. The real shame is that a city the size of Atlanta has only 1 train in each direction daily. If one wants to go to Florida from ATL, one has to go to Washington DC first: a 14 hr train trip in the wrong direction. Also, I've seen 3-4 agents on duty when I travelled from Atlanta.
I lived in Atlanta for 9 yrs and rode the Crescent north 1-2 times a year. Over those 9 yrs, the price of the sleeper tripled, nearly quadrupled. Early in my time there (early 2000s), a coach car was added to the NB Crescent, taken off the SB, so a long stop was necessary. That stopped around 03 - 04, I seem to recall. Not sure why - there was always a lot of people getting on NB.
The real shame is that a city the size of Atlanta has only 1 train in each direction daily. If one wants to go to Florida from ATL, one has to go to Washington DC first: a 14 hr train trip in the wrong direction.
Also, I've seen 3-4 agents on duty when I travelled from Atlanta.
WL,
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Last night my wife arrived in Baltimore on a Southwest Arilines flight from Milwaukee. She had to wait 50 minutes at the baggage carousel for her checked suitcase to get in. It was wet from the light rain fall. She paid an extra $10 to get to the head of the boarding line, as Southwest does not assign seats. Oh yes, the flight appearantly left Milwaukee without either a confirmed landing slot or gate and circled BWI for 30 minutes.
Passengers on airplanes are packed like sardines in seats about as comfortable as stone benches and are subject to all sorts of inconveniences through the whole process.
Highways are congested, often to say just the least, and are in very bad need of repair.
Transit services are subject to frequent delays, reductions in frequency, and often lacking in decent facilities and parking at stations.
Amtrak, see above several posts.
We are getting exactly what we are willing to pay for.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
I've ridden Amtrak for many years and have found it very enjoyable. It's true the staff is overworked often and the platforms crowded. Much of this post strikes me as the kind of grousing spoiled Americans like to do. So what if the train arrives early? So what if the bar code scanner doesn't work properly? Maybe it was your low-res print-out. I think that after years of Congress attempting to kill Amtrak, the service does a remarkably good job.
schlimmHarveyK400I wouldn't say Amtrak needs more training for crews without better information. Bad service and attitude may may stem from inadequate supervision and motivation. I agree. Bad service usually starts at the top. Poor training and supervision, a lack of value and reward for doing a good job, and misplaced priorities usually lead to a poor product whether rail, air, restaurants or other retail establishments.
HarveyK400I wouldn't say Amtrak needs more training for crews without better information. Bad service and attitude may may stem from inadequate supervision and motivation.
I agree. Bad service usually starts at the top. Poor training and supervision, a lack of value and reward for doing a good job, and misplaced priorities usually lead to a poor product whether rail, air, restaurants or other retail establishments.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Sam1And if they consistently fail to cover their costs, as they have since the day of their birthing, they can simply turn to the tax payers to bail them out.
It occurred to me that with one round trip, station staff for the representative Empire Builder and Crescent is idle much of the day. The Builders are scheduled to pass through Shelby about 6 hours apart and a split shift may be possible. The Crescents are scheduled to pass through Atlanta 12 hours apart which necessitates a second crew, and both must be large enough.
Some of the high labor cost might be reduced by improved automated ticketing at a kiosk or home computer printout..
Sam1HarveyK400 Would you really prefer the slings and arrows of private institutions like insurance companies, banks, and airlines systematically fleecing you; or put up with the occasional aggravations and incompetence of government agencies like Amtrak, the Post Office, and the armed forces? Neither are desirable; and both need improvement. I agree that the problems experienced in Atlanta are largely inexcusable and correctable without a lot of money. In summary, it seems service supervisors are not supervising. The cost of time as pointed out should be an incentive to Amtrak management. I have to wonder why the train is reversed, considering the orientation of station facilities. Even as a non-smoker and having ridden the Builder and Southwest, I sympathize with the need for a smoking break and protocols to facilitate this without the train spending too much time in the station. I'd gladly trade a few more minutes if it meant passengers would not sneak a smoke on the train. If a bank, insurance company or airline, to cite your examples, fails to respond to its customer's legitimate needs, over a long period of time; it is likely to be history because its aggrieved customers will turn to competitive alternatives. Just take a look at the airline graveyard for numerous examples of what happens to airlines that cannot compete. Or ask the former executives of Lehman Brothers or Wachovia what happens when competitive institutions fail to respond to market forces or are mismanaged. Amtrak has no competition in the intercity passenger railroad business. If they mess it up, they don't have to worry about losing their customers to another rail operator. And if they consistently fail to cover their costs, as they have since the day of their birthing, they can simply turn to the tax payers to bail them out.
HarveyK400 Would you really prefer the slings and arrows of private institutions like insurance companies, banks, and airlines systematically fleecing you; or put up with the occasional aggravations and incompetence of government agencies like Amtrak, the Post Office, and the armed forces? Neither are desirable; and both need improvement. I agree that the problems experienced in Atlanta are largely inexcusable and correctable without a lot of money. In summary, it seems service supervisors are not supervising. The cost of time as pointed out should be an incentive to Amtrak management. I have to wonder why the train is reversed, considering the orientation of station facilities. Even as a non-smoker and having ridden the Builder and Southwest, I sympathize with the need for a smoking break and protocols to facilitate this without the train spending too much time in the station. I'd gladly trade a few more minutes if it meant passengers would not sneak a smoke on the train.
Would you really prefer the slings and arrows of private institutions like insurance companies, banks, and airlines systematically fleecing you; or put up with the occasional aggravations and incompetence of government agencies like Amtrak, the Post Office, and the armed forces? Neither are desirable; and both need improvement.
I agree that the problems experienced in Atlanta are largely inexcusable and correctable without a lot of money. In summary, it seems service supervisors are not supervising. The cost of time as pointed out should be an incentive to Amtrak management.
I have to wonder why the train is reversed, considering the orientation of station facilities.
Even as a non-smoker and having ridden the Builder and Southwest, I sympathize with the need for a smoking break and protocols to facilitate this without the train spending too much time in the station. I'd gladly trade a few more minutes if it meant passengers would not sneak a smoke on the train.
If a bank, insurance company or airline, to cite your examples, fails to respond to its customer's legitimate needs, over a long period of time; it is likely to be history because its aggrieved customers will turn to competitive alternatives. Just take a look at the airline graveyard for numerous examples of what happens to airlines that cannot compete. Or ask the former executives of Lehman Brothers or Wachovia what happens when competitive institutions fail to respond to market forces or are mismanaged.
Amtrak has no competition in the intercity passenger railroad business. If they mess it up, they don't have to worry about losing their customers to another rail operator. And if they consistently fail to cover their costs, as they have since the day of their birthing, they can simply turn to the tax payers to bail them out.
1) Amtrak may not have rail competitors; but there are alternatives like driving and flying.
2) Wide-spread poor performance will lose critical support and funding if not corrected. Usually a change in top management brings better results and customer satisfaction; but shut-down is an ever-present threat. Management has been sufficiently motivated by job-preservation to put out the fires of customer dissatisfaction and has avoided a total shut-down in the past.
Sam1United Airlines, by the way, filed for bankruptcy, which is a legitimate re-organization process, and came out of it without any significant government help,
I stand corrected: The government rejected the application claiming United "could probably obtain the $2 billion in financing it needs to emerge from protection without a federal loan guarantee."
There are many who would say a lack of proper regulation allowed banks to become "too big to fail" and engage in questionable practices.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm Sam1If a bank, insurance company or airline, to cite your examples, fails to respond to its customer's legitimate needs, over a long period of time; it is likely to be history because its aggrieved customers will turn to competitive alternatives. Really? How about Citi Group, AIG, and GM and United in the past. Just turn to the taxpayer for a bailout. Has Amtrak been any different, just cheaper?
Sam1If a bank, insurance company or airline, to cite your examples, fails to respond to its customer's legitimate needs, over a long period of time; it is likely to be history because its aggrieved customers will turn to competitive alternatives.
Really? How about Citi Group, AIG, and GM and United in the past. Just turn to the taxpayer for a bailout. Has Amtrak been any different, just cheaper?
The firms that you cite failed. With the exception of Citi Group, they should have been allowed to die. Banks are the linchpin for our economy; they must survive in one form or the other.
Unfortunately, as was the case with the formation of Amtrak, the government stepped in and bailed out the cited failed enterprises, thereby laying off on the backs of the taxpayer's decades of a burden that probably will never be repaid. Clearly, in the case of Amtrak, it will never be repaid. The burden will simply grow and grow.
United Airlines, by the way, filed for bankruptcy, which is a legitimate re-organization process, and came out of it without any significant government help, as did Delta, U.S. Airways, etc.
Amtrak has been propped up by the federal government for more than 38 years. I cannot think of any other commercial enterprise that has received a bailout that has run this long or one that has required as high a per customer (passenger) subsidy as Amtrak.
Let's not forget that Congress bought into a sham, somehow convinced that Amtrak would make money. Still, after years of under-survival funding, Amtrak soldiers on. If the meddlers in DC would only take the time to study passenger and freight rail in other countries, they'd understand.
My best analogy for Amtrak's funding is try to imagine that you're given $12,000 to run your office this year. In April, they take away $1000 but you're still expected to keep working and have the same output. In September, they take away more, and you're still to produce the same. As has been said, WTF?
Any well-designed transportation system will include all facets - rail, air, road, water - with each segment taking their strengths and letting the others take theirs. Once that's accomplished, it would be nice to have more than one train a day on the routes.
Time would be better spent looking forward rather than rehashing past mistakes, but be sure not to repeat past mistakes either. Getting rid of the 500+ managers would be a great beginning.
BNSFwatcher Actually, the "baggage handlers" are undercover Atlanta firemen. They are always on the lookout for the return of GEN Sherman, to make sure he doesn't burn the facility down. Some things never change, especially when politicians are in charge. Where is David Gunn, when we need him?
Actually, the "baggage handlers" are undercover Atlanta firemen. They are always on the lookout for the return of GEN Sherman, to make sure he doesn't burn the facility down. Some things never change, especially when politicians are in charge. Where is David Gunn, when we need him?
The politicians have been in charge of Amtrak since the get go. That's the problem! With 536 overseers (U.S. Congress and White House), meddling has reach a new high or low, depending on one's point of view. And because there are no competitive pressures to do things better, faster, cheaper, Amtrak will continue to be an also ran operation.
BNSFwatcherMy little city of Shelby, MT is #2 in passengers in the state. We have three, or four, Agents, with, usually two on duty at train time. Dunno what the loading is, compared to Atlanta. Our Agents handle the checked baggage, (snow) plow the platform, clean the restrooms, etc..
Interesting! For 2007 Shelby had 16463 O & Ds -- 45/day
2008 18881 -- 51+/day
For 2008 add in the closest no agent stations 18,061/4 ==4515+18881 equivalent 23,396 or 64+ per day. assuming that 25% of non agent passengers would need agent help at Shelby.
For ATL 2007 97594 --- 267+/day
ATL 2008 101084 --- 276+/day
Seems like ATL should have more ticket agents
Note did not include Gainesville or Toccoa with no agent which might increase ATL figures higher.
I am an inveterate David Gunn "fan". Has Boardman ever been on a train? His predecessor never came thru here, whatever his name was. Just another politician...
My little city of Shelby, MT is #2 in passengers in the state. We have three, or four, Agents, with, usually two on duty at train time. Dunno what the loading is, compared to Atlanta. Our Agents handle the checked baggage, (snow) plow the platform, clean the restrooms, etc.. Would they strike, in Atlanta?
I have a friend who quit his job with BNSF's MOW department and went with Amtrak. They sent him to Delaware for three month's Conductor training. He has been home a couple of months and is still on OJT! Saw him walk thru the dining car on the "Empire Builder" a while back. He, and his mentor, both took off their caps when they passed thru! A bit of class, methinks.
One of our Agents is going to California for "annual training" next month. Lot of money spent in training, but you have to start with "Quality" people.
Hays
What Amtrak really needs is a more intensive training program for employees whether on board or at stations.. Every new employee should be on probation for the first two years of employment. Amtrak needs to learn the meaning of customer service first and foremost. With the number of Americans out of work at the present time I see no reason that Amtrak could not add temps at train times at busy stations. Use some of the stimulus moneu the government keeps raving about. I not saying bring back the says when ullman operated the sleeping and parlor cars but lets bring back some decent service. In all my traels on Amtrak I don not know how many times I have heard passengers say this will be there first andlast time on Amtrak due to Amtrak employees with a bad attitude. They forget that the passengers that ride those trains and the American taxpayer are paying there wages. If they don't like the job than they should quit. All Amtrak onboard crews need to take lessons from Via Rails onboard Canadian crews. And the sme goes for Amtrak station personel they should learn from Via Rail station personel.
Al - in - Stockton.
PS Maybe it is already to late for Amtrak crews and personel we should fire the entire lot and hire some of the eager unemployed Americans and start over again.
Correct about not being able to widen platform.
The point of this thread is that there are probably problems at other stations that mirror the ones mentioned for ATL. my questions remain.
1. Are there stations with heavy passenger boardings that are short agents like ATL was this night?
2. What is AMTRAK doing to get the Quik-Traks to work better? Partial answer the 2010 budget proposal has funds to upgrade the system and the total number available system wide is not enough to place even one at every AMTRAK station at this time.
3. Why haven't more water service locations been placed to the NE? These additional water hydrants could be located SE of the pocket track. (Its only use is to rarely park AMTRAK equipment not blocking those possible locations).
4. Is ATL an example of other stations that move the train like ATL di to show an on time departure then proceed to do additional servicing (water, bags, Pass)?
As a note:: these are the only things that really need doing in ATL that would speed up turns now when a train is late. If an Atlanta stop of a CHI - Florida was scheduled to connect with the Cresent then that train would have to use to other track on the single platform and I can imagine the mess becoming 4 times worse. But CHI - Florida? long time in fuure except City of New Orleans possibility but that will not stop in ATL
If additional trains use Brookwood (its still used today) the suggestion of expanding SW over the tracks appears very do able.
Deggestythe Southern called it "Peachtree," the Atlantans knew it as "Brookwood."
Interesting. When I lived in Atlanta in the 80's, everyone still called it "Brookwood."
A tid-bit about the station, which was published in the Atlanta Constitution about fifty years ago. Whereas the Southern called it "Peachtree," the Atlantans knew it as "Brookwood." In the days when the Birmingham Special came through, someone was coming south on that train to visit friends (or relatives) in Atlanta, and was told to be sure to get off at Brookwood. He heard "Peachtree Station" announced, but did not know that it was his station--and stayed on board until the train stopped at Austell, forty-five minutes later. I do not remember if the people meeting him drove out to Austell, or if he waited two hours for the eastbound Birmingham Special.
Also, in the first years of the operation of the Southerner, it did not stop at the Peachtree station. The May 17, 1953, timetable is the first one I have which shows this train stopping there.
Johnny
Well, certainly thanks for the history, Johnny. I knew that it wasn't the original main station, but not much else.
I was taught long ago not to complain without having a possible solution, so let's move on to this: those who know the station and it's physical limitations, how would you modify the station? It seems to me that there is little to no room, but I'd like to suggest that perhaps where the stairs are, expand the station over them to make a bigger waiting room, and expand and increase the lighting on the platform. Possibly spread the two tracks apart for a bigger platform?
Anybody else?
TomDiehlFor the size city, Amtrak's station in Atlanta is smaller than the station in most small towns.
Remember that this station was built, between 1917 and 1920, as a suburban station, known both as Brookwood and Peachtree, and most of the passengers for Atlanta used the Terminal Station. When, in 1970, Southern stopped using the Terminal Station, it would have been extremely difficult to expand the Peachtree Station, even though it was known that all of the traffic that was using the Terminal Station would have to begin using this station.
The first train that ran through Atlanta from Washington to Birmingham was the Birmingham Special (I know, in later years it was routed through Roanoke and Bristol), and it did not go in to the Terminal Station. The next train that was operated through was the Southerner, and it headed in to the Terminal Station going south, backed out to the junction with the main, and then headed on to Birmingham. Going north, it backed in and then headed out. In 1968, the operation was changed to heading in to the Terminal Station, both north and south bound, turning the coach seats and running the engine around to the other end. Some time between the spring and fall of 1970, the Nancy Hanks II became the only Southern System train to use a downtown station--and it used a small building south of where the Terminal Station was.
BigBugRRgovernment run institution (think post office or DMV)
And I suppose you'd prefer to have paprivatized fire and police departments, a private enterprise military? If their customers are anything like Big bug or BNSF watcher, no wonder they need to step out for a smoke!
BigBugRR The quick (and unfortunate) answer is that this is now a government run institution (think post office or DMV) and they simply don't understand the term "customer service."
The quick (and unfortunate) answer is that this is now a government run institution (think post office or DMV) and they simply don't understand the term "customer service."
Why do right leaning people always derogate the Post Office? Find me anyone in the for profit world that you believe to be the epitome of customer service who will deliver your birthday card to Aunt Betty in Wallah Wallah, Washington for 44 cents. And they will pick it up at your house for no additional charge. If you think for profit means customer friendly then you have never tried to call your bank, or your insurance company.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
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