Harold Cox Birney Book

[daveklepper]

When the H streetcar line, than ran from the New Haven's Harlem Shuttle's station on the NYNH&H line to Oak Point Yard and the H. G. Bridge, west to the line to GCT, was repaced by bus in 1937(?), it was a special occasion, since it ran by Fontain Fox's home, and he was the cartoonist of the Tunerville Trolley comic strip.  Regular double-truck convertables had been the regular equipment for many years.  But the Third Avenue people borrowed one of the Birney's leased to Stienway to take part in the final run, with Mr. Fox, since its diminutive size made it a stand-in for the comic strip's car.

At the time there were interconnecting tracks for the move each way, but the car had to be towed while on conduit-only tracks beetween 59th and 129th Streets on 3rd Avenue.

 

 

[daveklepper]

More Birney pictures:

 

 

 

[daveklepper]

 

Sggested Birney Revival with low-floor characterstics

[Overmod]

If you are reviving low-floor Birneys you can get a LOT closer to true low-walkover at the ends by re-adopting the Lindall articulation scheme...

https://villamosok.hu/nza/beng-kulf/boston4200.jpg

[daveklepper]

Need  an expkaitionh for that.

But hereis Third Avene's last Birneym converted to rai8l-grinder and slot-coleaner:

[daveklepper]

Comment from Russ Johnson:

Thanks, Dave.  I have the book, of course.  Three of us had a charter in Bendigo some years back.  First car we used was a green Birney, as it to some degree looked like a Philly car.  On a less pleasant note, both of the chaps with me that day are now deceased.

 

 Birneys only ride poorly on poor track.  As you may know, the Europeans run 4-wheel cars at high speeds by Birney standards.  I have 8mm of three car trains of 4-wheel cars running in peak hours at 30 or more MPH on the interurban line from Dusseldorf to Krefeld.  With their track standards, you don't have to have a lot of suspension to ride well enough. 

 

I remember a chap from Rockwell telling me that the BART track was of such good construction that their truck met the specified ride quality with the air springs down.  (Being a flexible -frame truck, equalization didn't require springs at the axles.)   It's likely that properties that bought Birneys had some track that was in pretty poor shape and those are the lines they ran them on.  The bouncing Birney chatter likely came from the articles of the media and the fan media isn't all that better.

 

Russ J.

 

 

[Gramp]

Please be careful, Dave. Praying for your safety. 

[Overmod]

Russ evidently does not comprehend the amount of work that had to be done by Alan Wickens, Waggon Union, and others to get four-wheel rail vehicles to ride stably at higher speeds.  See the general subject of "Pacers" for a quite reasonable counterexample.

Birneys are laughably lacking in anything like damping, and most have an almost ridiculous longitudinal polar moment of inertia.  It should not surprise anyone, with or without formal engineering training, that they ride and often guide poorly.

Street railways, as far as I know, have never been known for maintaining precise track geometry, or for that matter rail condition.  A Birney encountering rail corrugation, for example, is not going to demonstrate serene Citroen-like compliance.

Actually load them to capacity for revenue, and the situation rapidly goes farther into the toilet...

[daveklepper]

Russ's reply, his capitalization bid difficult to remove:

uss evidently does not comprehend the amount of work that had to be done by Alan Wickens, Waggon Union, and others to get four-wheel rail vehicles to ride stably at higher speeds.  See the general subject of "Pacers" for a quite reasonable counterexample.

 

AS FOR RAILROAD 4-WHEELERS, THAT IS OF COURSE TRUE.  RODE THE ENGLISH ONE ON THE PAOLI LINE DOWNHILL AT 70 MPH.  WELL-DESIGNED SUSPENSION.

Birneys are laughably lacking in anything like damping, and most have an almost ridiculous longitudinal polar moment of inertia.  It should not surprise anyone, with or without formal engineering training, that they ride and often guide poorly.

 

ALL (IT THINK) STREET/INTERURBAN CARS  PRIOR TO PCCS USED LEAF SPRINGS AS A DAMPING METHOD.  A PRIME EXAMPLE IS THE FLEET OF PITTSBURGH "LOW FLOOR" CARS WHICH HAD FLEXIBLE TRUCK FRAMES TO ACHIEVE EQUALIZATION AND HAD ONLY A LEAF SPRING BOLSTER ARRANGEMENT. THE PCC B-3 TRUCK IS FUNCTIONALLY THE SAME, BUT BY USING COIL SPRINGS HAD TO HAVE HYDRAULIC OR FRICTION DAMPERS.   THE B-2 TRUCK WAS DESIGNED TO HAVE DAMPERS AT EACH AXLE.  THE BROOKLYN CARS HAD DAMPERS AS RECEIVED.   YOU MAY RECALL THAT BOSTON AND TRC CAME UP WITH A FRICTION DAMPER FOR APPLICATION TO B-2 TRUCKS. 

Street railways, as far as I know, have never been known for maintaining precise track geometry, or for that matter rail condition.
A Birney encountering rail corrugation, for example, is not going to demonstrate serene Citroen-like compliance.

 

NOT SO FOR PAVED TRACK.  STREET RAILWAY PAVED TRACK IS A VERY PRECISE CONSTRUCTION, WITH GAUGE PLAY TYPICALLY ABOUT 1/4 INCH.  RAILROAD PEOPLE WHO GET INVOLVED WITH STREETCAR TRACK USUALLY SCREW THINGS UP.  SIGNIFICANT VERTICAL MISALIGNMENT FOR PAVED TRACK TYPICALLY ONLY OCCURS WHEN THERE IS A BROKEN JOINT.  OPEN TRACK IS SUSCEPTIBLE TO ALL THE VERTICAL AND HORIZONTAL MISALIGNMENTS AS OCCUR ON RAILROADS.   RUNNING A BIRNEY - OR MOST ANY 4-WHEEL PRE-PCC STREETCAR - ON POORLY MAINTAINED OR LIFE-EXPIRED TRACK IS NOT GOING TO PROVIDE A GREAT RIDE. 

 

DOUBLE-TRUCKED CARS WITH A SWING-LINK BOLSTER ALWAYS HAD A PROBLEM IN THAT THERE WAS INSUFFICIENT DAMPING OF LATERAL MOTION.  PCC TRUCKS HAD PROVISIONS FOR APPLYING LATERAL DAMPERS. 

 

TRUCK SUSPENSIONS SHOULD BE SUCH AS TO NOT COUPLE TRUCK PITCH OR SIDE TO SIDE CHANGES IN ELEVATION TO THE CAR BODY.  AIR SPRINGS CAN DO THIS WELL, USING. LEVELING VALVES TO DEAL WITH STATIC CONDITIONS.

Actually load them to capacity for revenue, and the situation rapidly goes farther into the toilet.  NOT WORTHY OF COMMENT.  (DLK:   My oWn expErience wiTh Co9nnecticut 2350 at Shore Line Trollet Museum (Branford) is that riding, never bad on the well-maintaiuned trasck, actually improves with loading..

I'll pass on your reply to him...

 

[Overmod]

Note that my 'into the toilet' comment strictly applies only to pitch and yaw compliance, not vertical riding.  Any properly-designed car should 'ride' better when loaded (provided it isn't physically 'bottoming out' on the springs) just as trucks or some buses do.

The issue with leaf springs is that their 'damping' is mostly friction, and if you grease or oil the leaves to reduce wear and noise, physical damping especially for larger moments can become very slight compared to oscillation, often resonant...

[daveklepper]

The gears and motors are between the wheels.  If one is not really sloppy, especially with the exterior journal boxes, there is no reason for grease and oil to penetrate the leaf springs.  I do speak from experience as a youngster with Third Avenue Transit and their universal use of Brill-design-and-parts (lightweights) and Brill-manufactured (convertibles and about half the second-hand cars) trucks.   Later, Third Avenue Lightweight 629 and Connecticut 2350 Birney at Branford. 

They and we did not oil or grease the leaf-springs deliberately, to the best of my memory.