The question has arisen as to whether NJT was bullied by the NFL or not. Why didn't NJT take charge and say, this is what we have to do to move this many people? Is it because NJT was not allowed to by the NFL? Or, as has been shown over the past several years, NJT does not have the expertise in running a service for the public? I have a strong opinion on this. As recently as last night a disabled train was cancelled and customers invited to wait another hour for the next train. Meanwhile two deadhead trains passed by the disabled train and another revenue train was scheduled before that hour was up. Poor authoritative judgment on part of whoever the authority was and poor communication because of poor understanding of schedules and service by the communicators! NJT is a political tool being abused by political forces for their own persuasions.
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To refocus on the Superbowl issue, Henry, your point that the trains from the Meadowlands should have started earlier is certainly valid. Had the trains started a half hour earlier that would have more than 3 early trains. And 3 trains could have carried about 7,200 people or more than 20 per cent of the 33,000 who used the trains to leave the Superbowl.
However, whatever the pros and cons of Bi Level cars are it is hard for me to see how using cars carrying fewer people from the Superbowl would have been an advantage. The only disadvantage would be if in fact loading and unloading takes more time with Bi Levels than with single level cares. Are there any time studies of that? But still, carrying more people is still carrying more people.
The point that NJT might have had more buses standing by to carry some people is valid but the reason for not doing that is murky. Was it a NFL decision? Or a NJT decision? Or both? Here in New Jersey we have very little mass transit in the same sense that New York does: The subways. Commuter trains, as you well know, are very different from subways.
Aside from starting earlier NJT did use their Meadowlands rail line as well as they could. And once people leaving got to Secaucus there were no reports of problems or at least I didn't see any reports.
Finally, to respond to your overall assessment of NJT, Metro North and SEPTA are just as much political entities as NJT is.
John
Another two comments from the Bergen Record:
http://www.northjersey.com/news/244168611_Road_Warrior__A_missed_Super_Bowl_opportunity_missed_its_big_chance_to_shine.html
http://www.northjersey.com/news/opinions/244168571_The_Record__NJ_Transit_hearings.html
Yesterday (Thursday), the local cable news had a "man in the street" interview on NJ Transit's Super Bowl performance. Since I was listening, rather than watching the TV, I missed any identification of the interviewee. However, he raised an interesting point.
Since NJ Transit knew how many passengers it had transported TO the game, it knew that it would have to transport the same number of passengers FROM the game five hours later. Why didn't NJT call in additional crews and use additional train sets that were stored in yards (Waldwick, etc.) for the Monday commuter service?
I'm going to check with friends at NJT, but I suspect that it was:
a. A refusal of NJT management to deviate from the plan, regardless of what was actually happening.
b. The intense pressure on NJT management to avoid overtime at all cost.
c. The management culture that still hasn't recognized that its purpose is to provide a service to the public.
d. All of the above.
Well said. AFAIK, few if any past Super Bowls had as many problems with access as this one. Super Bowl XXVI held in Pontiac, MI 1982 did have some access problems because of the snow and cold.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
if it aint all the above then I will be a monkeys uncle. they say the government is outa money. so when u get the chance to piss people off u do. how else do u get the payee's to pay more money. oldest trick in da book?
Just like for the Broncos, there is more than enough blame to go around for NJT.
Coulda, woulda, shouda - the staples of the Blame Game!
Come on Down!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Have not observed the layout of the Meadowlands station but several operational points are desired.
1. What is the allowable headway for MAS trains ?
2. What is the CP layout of the Meadowlands station and also the layout at Secaucus ? Is there a limit of one train at a time at the Meadowlands CP?
2a. Is the CP cross over located east of Secaucus so empty train could easily reverse direction?
3. Why was there not a person who could immediately act on the additional probable passengers based on last minute Sunday ticket sales?. Knowing commuters generally buy tickets at the last minute why was that not considered a possibility ?
4. If all available bi-levels were allocated why were comet cars not kept as additional standby trains ? Could extra trains have been staged east of Secaucus ?
5. Two engineers should have been assigned to each train so changing directions at each end much faster ? no walking length of train.
Inquiring minds want to know ----------------
blue streak 1 Actually I posted all this earlier or on similar thread Have not observed the layout of the Meadowlands station but several operational points are desired. 1. What is the allowable headway for MAS trains ? Schedule shows 10 minutes 2. What is the CP layout of the Meadowlands station and also the layout at Secaucus ? Is there a limit of one train at a time at the Meadowlands CP? Two track line off Pascack Valley Line with three track stub station one platform for trks 1&2; one platform for trk 3. Can't determine if high or low platform. 2a. Is the CP cross over located east of Secaucus so empty train could easily reverse direction? Not applicable as you are almost 5 miles from Sec. Jct. and off the main and off the PV line,too, But the two track line doe's have crossovers, ett. 3. Why was there not a person who could immediately act on the additional probable passengers based on last minute Sunday ticket sales?. Knowing commuters generally buy tickets at the last minute why was that not considered a possibility ? You are talking NJT, NFL, NJ Governors' office perhaps, and asking the $64 Question. 4. If all available bi-levels were allocated why were comet cars not kept as additional standby trains ? Could extra trains have been staged east of Secaucus ? All Comet cart pressed into regular service, Bi Levels are sexy public relations pieces, Extra crews and extra trains would have cost more money than NJT wants to spend....so, no, no extra trains were made ready. Anyway, the answer is also in the answer to #3 above. 5. Two engineers should have been assigned to each train so changing directions at each end much faster ? no walking length of train. See answer to #3 above. Inquiring minds want to know ----------------So do all of NJ taxpayers, media reporters, and me.
Actually I posted all this earlier or on similar thread
1. What is the allowable headway for MAS trains ? Schedule shows 10 minutes
2. What is the CP layout of the Meadowlands station and also the layout at Secaucus ? Is there a limit of one train at a time at the Meadowlands CP? Two track line off Pascack Valley Line with three track stub station one platform for trks 1&2; one platform for trk 3. Can't determine if high or low platform.
2a. Is the CP cross over located east of Secaucus so empty train could easily reverse direction? Not applicable as you are almost 5 miles from Sec. Jct. and off the main and off the PV line,too, But the two track line doe's have crossovers, ett.
3. Why was there not a person who could immediately act on the additional probable passengers based on last minute Sunday ticket sales?. Knowing commuters generally buy tickets at the last minute why was that not considered a possibility ? You are talking NJT, NFL, NJ Governors' office perhaps, and asking the $64 Question.
4. If all available bi-levels were allocated why were comet cars not kept as additional standby trains ? Could extra trains have been staged east of Secaucus ? All Comet cart pressed into regular service, Bi Levels are sexy public relations pieces, Extra crews and extra trains would have cost more money than NJT wants to spend....so, no, no extra trains were made ready. Anyway, the answer is also in the answer to #3 above.
5. Two engineers should have been assigned to each train so changing directions at each end much faster ? no walking length of train. See answer to #3 above.
Inquiring minds want to know ----------------So do all of NJ taxpayers, media reporters, and me.
There's this from Paul Mulshine of the Star-Ledger...
http://blog.nj.com/njv_paul_mulshine/2014/02/2014_super_bowl_transit_debacle_what_the_investiga.html
Bear in mind, Mr. Mulshine's what I'd call the Star-Ledger's resident "Angry Man", usually with good reason.
From reading a lot of his columns I think ol' Paul was probably born PO'd. When the doctor slapped his bottom I wouldn't be surprised it Paul slapped him back, and probably a few delivery room nurses as well!
PS: Be sure to click on the blue highlighted topics in the column, they're links to NJ Transit. I get the impression NJT was whistling in the dark on this one.
Henry I guess I was looking for a more detailed layout.
6. Maybe a track diagram of the route in question for Secaucus - Meadowlands including any CPs between and beyond both stations..
7. Was wondering how close trains could run not the 10 minutes that NJT scheduled for the super bowl. That would depend on how close block signals are placed and their signal aspects.
8. Are you saying that both tracks at Secaucus station could not be used at the same time? Are you saying that only one track at Secaucus has access to Meadowlands ?
Of course who in NJ government cares as most of the riders were not from New Jersey ?
A lot of people in NJ government could care less about their own citizens as long as they pay their taxes and keep their mouths shut, which is why I left.
6 & 7: Three tracks into a stub from a two track main. I cannot make copies of the diagrams I have but in the short distance both main tracks feed the station tracks and enter the Pascack Valley main line. Speed limit and distances mean you can actually stack your trains at any interval you want or can afford.
8: No, two tracks west and two tracks east at SJ can be used to load and unload Sport Complex service. Because of the short distances, the more trains you have, the more congested and confused you get.
The problems come from lack of properly planning the exercise, not having or using the right numbers of people needed to operate, nor having or using the right numbers of people to plan on using the system, the problem of using BiLevel cars which can carry lots of people but takes long amounts of time to load and unload (see 8 above...short distance, time takes time and takes away from time when distances are short and the number of trains on a given track at a given time cause congestion), by running the first train to arrive at the gate opening time of 2PM instead of several train loads ahead of time, by not changing the set up for returning trains and people: should have added more trains, equipment, and people after knowing they already hauled twice the number of people they had planned for, not realizing that the number of 10 car Bi Level trains sets didn't work at 2 in the afternoon and should have made adjustments of more and shorter trains more often or go for the Comet cars There are all kinds of things that should have been realized or thought of or questioned long before Super Bowl Sunday, more ability of NJT to react to needed changes Super Bowl morning when crowds became overwhelming, by 6PM, and by 10PM. We really don't know who was in charge...I get the impression it was a secretary to the janitor at Christie's offices in Trenton. Oh, sorry for the sarcastic comment...maybe.
Blue Streak, if you're looking for a track diagram check the Paul Mulshine column I've referenced, then click on "like this" , it's in blue lettering, then scroll down to "regional transit diagram", although if you want to check out the NJT commercial with the cute girl and the football first that's OK, I did.
Also, click on "read their own website" also highlighted in blue.
There are some track and transit maps there but they're done in the abstract. Better than nothing.
I'll say this much, Mr. Mulshine did his homework.
picked up ma load of government security :"SAFES": ie secured file cabinets on a 24' ford 750 rollback we had at a lock and safe company in WASH D. C. that was in Newark N.J. in 1984. it snowed and them drivers went dumber than dirt. one trip cured me as this place looked like something from daunteis inferno with white snow that was either grey or brown instantly. I asked the dock forman why any one lived their. he said he owed the mob money and soon as they were paid he was outa there. I never returned again for the second load. told my boss u can go get um.
The station diagram is easy. Drawing from left to right. Three tracks stub ending with a platform between track three and two and another platform on the outside of track 1 over on the right. Track three has crossover to 2 to 1 at mp 1.8-1.9 and track 1 a crossover to tr 2 and one back to itself after that; track 3 connects to tr 2 at about mp 1.7 at MP .07 crossover track 2 to 1 followed by crossover 1 to 2. At .05 a connecting track swings off tr 2 to the right to what is called Plank connecting track but that is not defined . At MP 0 is the interlocking with the PV line with track two to PV 1 and crossover to PV 2 and Tr 1 to PV 1 and to PV 2 on another crossover . The bumper block at Sport Stadium is MP2.0.
Yet Seattle was able to handle over 700,000 persons to downtown celebrating the Sea Hawks win. If the 100,000 to the game that is 7 times the number of game attendees. If 30,000 traveled on NJT then that is 20 times what NJT carried. It certainly appears that Sound transit worked well. Read the following link -----
http://www.soundtransit.org/About-Sound-Transit/News-and-events/News-releases/Transportation-teamwork-for-Seahawks-parade-02062014
200,000 passengers on Sound which is a much smaller system than NJT
Therein lies the nut....there is a difference between commuter rail and rapid transit and the people who know the difference.
It will be interesting to see if this results in anything positive, or just more "smoke and mirrors".
http://www.northjersey.com/news/NJ_transportation_chief_orders_probe_into_NJ_Transit_Super_Bowl_logjam.html
henry6 Therein lies the nut....there is a difference between commuter rail and rapid transit and the people who know the difference.
Sound Transit is commuter rail, light rail and buses for King County. It is much smaller than NJT, but the concept is the same.
schlimmSound Transit is commuter rail, light rail and buses for King County.
Sort of. Sound Transit operates the trains and light rail, as well as some of the long distance busses. It is sort of the regional carrier (owned by several counties) that takes people between counties, which operate their own busses. King County Metro provides most of the bus service in downtown Seattle.
N JT rail is in charge of commuter rail and nothing do not operate buses or light rail; each is a different division. But, commuter rail is not rapid transit. NJT, NFL, and the politicians don't seem to understand. In rapid transit you usually run electric trains on short headways with high platform stations and cars with at least two double doors on each side, and often run on the marker lights of the train ahead during peak periods. Commuter operations are trains operating by a completely different set of rules and philosophies. Superimposing a rapid transit need onto a commuter railroad is close to impossible to do. NJT didn't come close, couldn't come close, because of the physical characteristics of the railroad and equipment and operating rules.
My point was the same as bluestreak's, which is that Seattle moved 700,000 without rapid transit and a much smaller public transportation group then NJT, and 200,000 were moved on rail I guess I do not understand what your point is.
Schlimm, I'm not sure who your post is directed to.
I was merely trying to clarify that Sound Transit is not the only operator of buses in Seattle, indeed they are the minority in the area. They are the intercounty operator.
The news release indicates that the neighboring transit agencies lent buses and crews, and coordinated everything well. There were additional Sounder Trains, so BNSF had a role also. Many private bus corporations also operated buses to the event. Kudos to all involved.
NorthWest Schlimm, I'm not sure who your post is directed to. I was merely trying to clarify that Sound Transit is not the only operator of buses in Seattle, indeed they are the minority in the area. They are the intercounty operator. The news release indicates that the neighboring transit agencies lent buses and crews, and coordinated everything well. There were additional Sounder Trains, so BNSF had a role also. Many private bus corporations also operated buses to the event. Kudos to all involved.
henry6 N JT rail is in charge of commuter rail and nothing do not operate buses or light rail; each is a different division. But, commuter rail is not rapid transit. NJT, NFL, and the politicians don't seem to understand. In rapid transit you usually run electric trains on short headways with high platform stations and cars with at least two double doors on each side, and often run on the marker lights of the train ahead during peak periods. Commuter operations are trains operating by a completely different set of rules and philosophies. Superimposing a rapid transit need onto a commuter railroad is close to impossible to do. NJT didn't come close, couldn't come close, because of the physical characteristics of the railroad and equipment and operating rules.
Excuse me, the Long Island Railroad and to some extent Metro North supermpose rapid transit needs on their commuter railroads. But still, your point is well taken. That is why they went to high platforms on nearly all stations, wide quarter-point doors on their mu cars. Either of these railroads have the culture to
Both the LIRR and MN have the culture to have done a great job with the Superbowl and frequently meet rapid transit needs. That is why both went to high platform stations and wide quarter-point doors on mu cars.
"Both the LIRR and MN have the culture to have done a great job with the Superbowl and frequently meet rapid transit needs. That is why both went to high platform stations and wide quarter-point doors on mu cars."
Right, Dave. MNRR and LIRR operate more in rapid transit environment, especially the LIRR. Services in and out of the City are more rapid transit: electric, high level platforms, four tracks, frequent trains. If that was what NJT had for the SuperBowl, it might have worked. BUT NJT had diesel push pulls, high level platform at Secaucus but I don't believe so at Sports Stadium (but I may be wrong on that), stub station at one end, railroad rules, long blocks, upstairs/downstairs connections, and not used to rapid transit operating needs. NJT is not a rapid transit system...their people were not prepared, their plant is not a rapid transit plant, their equipment is railroad not rapid transit.
Henry,
The Meadowlands Station is high level. Most (all?) of the new or major renovated NJT stations (Plauderville, Ridgewood) are high level platforms.
One interesting station is the Union station on the Raritan Valley line. It's a high platform station on a busy freight line, so there's gauntlet tracks on both sides of the platform to move freight trains out from the platform edge. I don't know if any other NJT stations have gauntlet tracks.
Ken
The NFL told NJT to expect 16000 to us transit - 33000 did. A signifigant number of bus and limo parking passes wen unused.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/02/11/super-bowl-train-jam-resulted-from-unused-parking-bus-passes/
I have to disagree here. Look at the logistical issues. It is far easier to move people into an event like the SuperBowl. With on stadium activities and people knowing there will be lines for security screening and the stadium gates opening more than 4 hours before kick-off, people are going to be more dispersed arriving at the venue. After the game, however, everyone wants to leave at once. Even in a blow out like this, maybe the Denver fans might be 30 minutes ahead of the Seattle fans in leaving. But you still are talking 33,000 people all expecting to leave within an hour of each other.
If you have ever arrived at a stadium by car you will also see this phenomenon. There is less of a traffic jam inbound to park, but it can often talk an hour or so to exit the parking lot to leave. There is, and always will be a queuing problem for large events ending at a entertainment venue!
Secondly, the infrastructure to the stadium is a 2.5 mile branch from Secaucus Jct. which is stub ended at the stadium. At Secaucus Jct.it connects to another NJ Transit line for through service to Hoboken. The stadium branch line has two tracks. Realistically it would be difficult to operate more than 2 trainsets, one on each track between the Meadowlands and Secaucus Jct. Anything more than 2 trains (one on each track) requires making a meet between trains en route. So the capacity is the train size times the roundtrip cycle time times 2 trains. Just loading and unloading time makes a roundtrip per trainset of less than 30 mins unlikely. NJ Transit equipped both trains with their highest capacity (double deck) commuter cars to maximize the carrying capacity of each train. With really good track layout at each end you might accommodate 4 trainsets on the line One each at each end of the line loading/unloading and one in transit each way. And you would have to have at least one intermediate signal on the line to do this, and a crossover at each terminal.
In summary this is a no-win situation for NJ Transit. I think they probably did the best job possible given the capacity of the trains and the track. The only way to do better would be to have a bunch of trains queued up nose to tail at the stadium, and they do not have extra track to do this. They can stage two trains at the stadium (one on each track).
But it is easy to play arm chair quarterback on this topic.
Ken..thank you for clearing that up.. wasn't sure but could not believe them to be low. The real problem then is that it should be a three track loop station instead of stub end perhaps/.
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