Has there ever been proposals to electrify Penn Station NY to Jamaica Ave Queens with Catenary?
None that I have seen, and I'd think that 'bang for the buck' would be particularly poor considering the infrastructure cost for the very relative 'benefit' of one-seat from New Jersey out to Queens on the LIRR with no rail extension to either LGA or JFK.
Much easier to put third-rail shoes and some DC-to-DC converters on existing power, almost for sure.
PRR took control of the LIRR with the idea of being able to get the Main Line inhabitants of Philadelphia out to Montauk and the Hamptons with their private cars with no changes....so Penn Sta was originally 600v DC from Manhattan Transfer to Sunnyside and was the same as the LIRR and passenger trains would be hauled to Jamaica by electric locomotives similar and often the same as the PRR was using to MT. But when PRR went to overhead in 1930 the idea seemed to pass. I believe PRR DD1's did haul LIRR's Cannon Ball and other far east end trains to Jamaica where power was changed to steam maybe until 1950 when PRR released the LIRR from its fold...from then on it was "change at Jamaica" and it meant you not the motive power. Diesels short circuited a lot of electric operations with the idea rails had the economy of electric without the smoke, soot, and cinders of steam and therefore a lot of wire and third rail dreams were abandoned. The Depression of the 30's also caused railroads to cut back on big ideas...
Today, however, there are the dual locomotives...LIRR has several but no one has yet to play with one west of the west end of NYP as far as I know. NJT has some duals but with small pantagraphs for catenary and not shoes for 3rd rail and have as yet not been accepted by Amtrak for use on the Corridor into NYP. So, possibilities are here...the time has yet to come.
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I don't understand why Amtrak will not make additional good use of thier dual powered 3rd rail P42 locomotives to operate from Washington DC to Jamaica Ave Queens. It would be cool if there were tri powered hybrid diesel 3rd rail and catenary locomotives similar to ALP-45DP locomotives .
There is no reason to. There is no intercity marketing on this route nor reason for it. Nothing would be gained by anybody by doing it. Amtrak, LIRR, NJT, MNRR, SEPTA are not in the business of running trains because they have equipment and track but because they have specific service committments. Running D.C. to Jamaica, Queens is not one of those services.
You don't need tri-power diesels, and as Overmod said you don't need new cat wire. Equipment similar to New Haven's would work across the NEC-LIRR divide. I think a NJT-LIRR cross commute would make more sense than an Amtrak divergence.
As I posted in another thread all you would need is a M-8 train set with 25 Hz transformer and over running 3 rd rail shoes. SO it appears that NJT and LIRR see no need for this kind of service
If you check through all the old Official Guides available, I suspect that at one time there were through Pullmans or parlor cars from various places to Montauk. I know there were some special moves like that directly to the NY Worlds Fair 1939-1940.
blue streak 1 As I posted in another thread all you would need is a M-8 train set with 25 Hz transformer and over running 3 rd rail shoes. SO it appears that NJT and LIRR see no need for this kind of service
I know there is at least some demand for this cross-commute type service, but apparently it has not reached critical mass, or at least not enough to cause the two agencies to explore a cooperative service.
MidlandMike [I know there is at least some demand for this cross-commute type service, but apparently it has not reached critical mass, or at least not enough to cause the two agencies to explore a cooperative service.
[I know there is at least some demand for this cross-commute type service, but apparently it has not reached critical mass, or at least not enough to cause the two agencies to explore a cooperative service.
Amtrak has run through trains into LIRR territory in the past with P32AC-DM diesels. I seem to remember specials from Albany to the Shea Stadium area.
aegrotatioAside from the Empire Connection third-rail, isn't there just one North River tunnel that has third-rail that only gets passing maintenance attention? I remember discussing this on one of the online fora a few years ago. Do all of the East River tunnels have third-rail?
I had tacitly assumed that with catenary in both tunnels, you would want third rail for the wire trains to access them. That may be wrong, but it seems implausible to keep third rail in only one.
Any of the East River tunnels that can see LIRR third-rail traffic will of course have third rail. That should be all of them; I haven't heard different.
Will be interesting to hear if either of these is no longer correct.
As far as I know,. third rail still exists in the two Amtrak Hudson River tunnels to just a few feet beyond the portal. If anyone has a recent pix of the portal, it should show. And of course all four East River tunnels have third rail . Two are "owned" by LIRR and two by Amtrak, but they are dispatched as one railroad.
With revised third rail shoes, the M8 designed car could operate NJT - LIRR through electric service.
daveklepperI suspect that at one time there were through Pullmans or parlor cars from various places to Montauk.
LIRR was well-known for its primarily weekend parlor car service between New York City and either Montauk or Greenport. There were occasional special moves of through cars from PRR but I don't think that they were scheduled operations.
blue streak 1SO it appears that NJT and LIRR see no need for this kind of service
NJT can hardly do tactical things like keeping equipment out of floods right. I can't see them being interested in tackling strategic things with large tactical challenges.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
The M-8 can only use third rail in shared territory, once a third rail shoe hits third rail pantographs come down with no override. The M-8 can NOT use the 25 hz catenary between Gate and NYP or NEC south.
The Transformer on M-8 can only handle 60 hz power.
According to this site the Long Island Railroad operated regular parlor car service:
http://www.dominionrailvoyages.com/jhd/lirr/
John WRAccording to this site the Long Island Railroad operated regular parlor car service:
Yes, but we're talking about THROUGH parlor cars (or other passenger cars) coming from the PRR catenary trackage.
Think George Pins trying to get to Easthampton...
Pennsy's Trail Blazer operated from Chicago through to the New York World's Fairgrounds in 1939-40. The GG1 that brought the train from Harrisburg to Penn Station was simply replaced with an LIRR DD1 during the Penn Station stop. This could be done today with an LIRR or Amtrak dual-mode.
The PRR/LIRR ran "The Sunrise Special" from Pittsburgh to Montauk from 1922-42. It ran eastbound on Fridays and westbound on Mondays. For a time it ran every day. Not sure about the equipment.
OvermodYes, but we're talking about THROUGH parlor cars (or other passenger cars) coming from the PRR catenary trackage.
Overmod,
Do you consider parlor car service "From New York City to either Montauk or Greenport" through service?
Best regards, John
John WRDo you consider parlor car service "From New York City to either Montauk or Greenport" through service?
Not even remotely.
That's entirely on LIRR, in a LIRR train -- like the Cannon Ball with the gurgling, rocking RS3s.
"Through service" by definition involves other carriers -- most probably PRR, but NH would have been possible (for example, with a 'reverse' move of the car in the west yard at Penn Station). See the previous post about the Sunrise Special (which I had no idea was a through train from Pittsburgh until my face was rubbed in it...)
I'm sure there's a history of private car moves, and that might 'count' but not to the same degree as service that was truly interline common carrier. PRR to LIRR is an interline move, even if PRR exercised a controlling interest in LIRR at the time.
Overmodhat's entirely on LIRR, in a LIRR train -- like the Cannon Ball with the gurgling, rocking RS3s
I agree.
Pretty certain the Sunrise Special has parlor cars
daveklepperretty certain the Sunrise Special has parlor cars
Perhaps a daily Sunrise Special could be re-established to replace the Pennsylvanian. Of course it would be an all parlor car train.
John WR daveklepperretty certain the Sunrise Special has parlor cars Perhaps a daily Sunrise Special could be re-established to replace the Pennsylvanian. Of course it would be an all parlor car train.
I presume that this is not a serious suggestion since I doubt the existence of a large enough market to support an all-first-class Pittsburgh-New York-Montauk train.
You ask if my suggestion for a Sunrise Special, an all parlor car train, from Pittsburgh to the tip of Long Island is "serious." Actually it is not.
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