CSSHEGEWISCHConsidering that dining-car service was historically a red-ink item (back to at least the 1920's), it's not surprising that bar service on suburban trains was also a money-loser.
I think it is surprising. A dining car is a white table cloth restaurant. There was silver and china with the railroad insignia. The New Haven couldn't even pay its fuel bill but its best trains had a proper dining car. And yes, no doubt it was expensive to run.
But New Jersey Transit's bar car was a stand that took up the space of two or three seats in the middle of the car with a bar man to serve you. In the morning there was coffee and rolls. In the evening there was liquor by the drink and some kind of snack food. If I had been operating it I bet I could have made a nice profit. But NJT couldn't manage it effectively.
But NJT does a lot of things very well and running its trains is one of them. In the morning I had a catering truck and in the evening at Hoboken Terminal there is a shop that sells beer, wine, whisky and gives you a set up. The rest I can handle myself as long as there is a train to ride.
schlimm [Ah yes. But Blue Streak1, who should we believe? Our little anecdotes, someone's lyin' eyes or the highway lobby?
[Ah yes. But Blue Streak1, who should we believe? Our little anecdotes, someone's lyin' eyes or the highway lobby?
Four ridewithmehenry trippers surveyed parking lots and train usage yesterday (Wed 1/9/13) beginning at NJT's Lake Hopatcong Station at 7:50AM returning there at 6:59PM. LH is a little out of the way and NJT's dealing with Sandy and modified schedules are showing with the parking lot at LH being very lightly used with about maybe 20 cars...this was the fourth and final eastbound train of the day and about a dozen people boarded the train that began 20 minutes earlier in Hackettstown and had about 50 or so people aboard...half of whom changed at Dover to the Mid Town Direct train. Mt. Arlington Station parking lot was about 80% full, less than has been seen in the past. However, from Dover and east, with more frequent services all day, the lots were full and the train crew was complaining that even with 9 cars there was standing room only by the time they were to Summit with two stops yet to make before sprinting to Newark.. All parking lots were seen to be pretty full with few spots left. Station platforms were jammed with people. The 9 Comet cars were full with 125 people as opposed the 135 they could be hauling with the super duper, panacea for solving crowding conditions bi level cars. (Duper, in super duper, refers to the public and state officials being "duped" into buying these cars instead of electric MU's or standard cars which crews don't have to walk up and down stairs 20 times or more per run which is dangerous and tiring, but that's another story.) Over on MNRR the mid day train (11:48AM) of GCT for Southeast was about 90% full. The ride was not comfortable but was fast when not in work zones. Express to White Plains then all stops to Southeast. All parking lots full or more (yeah, more, with cars parked on the shoulders of the drive paths into the lots). Southeast is 53 miles out of GCT and its parking lot is overpouring cars. We change to the three car scoot from there to Wassaic at 82 miles from GCT. Train did have two of the three cars well occupied and all parking lots a good 80-90% full at the half dozen or so stations between terminal points. The return trains like wise filled rapidly and totally crowded the platform at GCT at 4:24PM. The NJT train to Dover leaving NYP was totally full and on time. About 30 crossed the platform at Dover to join about 100 passengers on train 1055 to Hackettstown with a large number getting off at Mt. Arlington and about a dozen at LH.
So: anecdotal observation: people ride trains when service is offered when reasonable prices and good convenient schedules and adequate parking are offered.
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blue streak 1But John we have been told that people don't want to travel by public transport. How can all the parking lots be full and many lots with waiting lists ?
Ah yes. But Blue Streak1, who should we believe? Our little anecdotes, someone's lyin' eyes or the highway lobby?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
cx500I have always held that the large parking lots at many transit stations are an admission of failure on the part of the transit system.
One area where New Jersey Transit seems to lack an understanding of the importance of connectivity is with its bus routes. My own experience is that many of them go close to rail stations but not close enough to connect to those stations. The bus routes that do connect were in existence before NJT took over our transit system.
One example is Hamilton Station in Mercer County. When it was built NJT promised it would be a transportation hub. Yet there are bus routes that get close to it but not close enough. When I lived there I read letters to the editor in The Times (of Trenton) by people who lived along a bus route and wanted to ride a bus to the station but when they tried they found it was impossible.
I have always held that the large parking lots at many transit stations are an admission of failure on the part of the transit system. They became a necessary evil because of the inadequacy of the feeder networks. And of course, since now most drive to the station, the feeder networks don't get enough ridership to justify improvement. A classic "chicken & egg" situation.
John
blue streak 1 But John we have been told that people don't want to travel by public transport. How can all the parking lots be full and many lots with waiting lists ? seriously --- will the demand outrun the supply ? The limitations of the north river tunnels may constrain traffic. uestion for some one in the know. are the NJT trains running at max # of revenue cars ? That question is not post "SANDY " but before the loss of much equipment.
But John we have been told that people don't want to travel by public transport. How can all the parking lots be full and many lots with waiting lists ?
seriously --- will the demand outrun the supply ? The limitations of the north river tunnels may constrain traffic.
uestion for some one in the know. are the NJT trains running at max # of revenue cars ? That question is not post "SANDY " but before the loss of much equipment.
Streak,
All I can say in answer to your first question is that New Jersey's people must not have gotten the message about all of the wonderful freedom that automobiles bring. People might get into their cars and drive off in many directions to find work where they would have free parking and uncrowded roads. In fact a great many drive to the train station and wait for the train. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that a lot of the jobs you can drive to are limited to flipping hamburgers or similar skills.
Right now the limits of the North River Tunnels have been reached and no more trains can get through them. Signal improvements have increased the number of trains that can use the tunnels but they have been made. NJT runs specially designed double decker cars that can fit the relatively low tunnels but no further improvement there is possible. And yes, NJT does run the maximum number of revenue cars. On a commuter train all cars are revenue cars. The only way to increase the number of trains is to build new tunnels.
Regrettably, our Governor Chris Christie cancelled NJT's own tunnels. However, Amtrak intends to build new tunnels of its own but their project is still in the planning stages.
John WR henry6Go to many far out railroad stations after 8AM and try to find a parking space. Sometimes I wonder if New Jersey is going to wind up with a solid strip of parking lots between Trenton and the North River Tunnels.
henry6Go to many far out railroad stations after 8AM and try to find a parking space.
Sometimes I wonder if New Jersey is going to wind up with a solid strip of parking lots between Trenton and the North River Tunnels.
Sometimes I wonder if New Jersey is going to wind up with a solid strip of parking lots between Trenton and the North River Tunnels. Trenton Transit Center is next to two parking garages and other lots. Hamilton Station was built to handle overflow parking from Princeton Junction. Princeton Junction itself is a constellation of parking lots and it takes years to get a permit there. There is a hugh parking lot at Jersey Avenue and now, as another thread describes, a new station and parking lot will be built between them. There are parking garages at New Brunswick and every station closer in has parking facilities. And of course there is Metro Park, a group of parking garages off of the Garden State Parkway. There is a proposal to make available the parking lot at Newark Airport to rail commuters too. And there still is not enough parking.
But as you know there has just been a sharp increase in the tolls at all the bridges and tunnels.
Even with considerable expansion and a daily fee of $1.50, our local Metra station's parking lots are almost full. Ditto with the other stations' lots inbound.
Go to many far out railroad stations after 8AM and try to find a parking space...Southeast, NY on MNRR's Harlem line, or Middletown, NY; Dover, NJ on NJT;s Morristown LIne; Hamilton, NJ on the Corridor Landsdale and Doysletown on SEPTA, Babylon, Patchogue, and Huntington on the LRR. You won't find a parking space. But you won't find a parking space inside Manhattan either...at least not as cheap as a ticket on the train even if you have to pay for parking at the station.
schlimm Your contention originally was that only 5% of the US public uses transit. When the obvious absurdity of that was pointed out, you retreated to the contention that even in urban/metro areas, transit is not favored by many folks who commute. Of course in many metro areas, there have not been any alternatives to auto (or possibly long bus rides) until recently, if even now. Consequently a more useful metric is to look at the experience in metro areas that have a well-developed suburban rail commuter system. I gave the example of Chicago, where "Metra carries approximately 50% of the trips to downtown in each of the major expressway corridors. It would take 29 lanes of expressways to accommodate those Metra riders." I believe by any standard, that is a service that has real value, by several criteria.
Your contention originally was that only 5% of the US public uses transit. When the obvious absurdity of that was pointed out, you retreated to the contention that even in urban/metro areas, transit is not favored by many folks who commute. Of course in many metro areas, there have not been any alternatives to auto (or possibly long bus rides) until recently, if even now. Consequently a more useful metric is to look at the experience in metro areas that have a well-developed suburban rail commuter system. I gave the example of Chicago, where "Metra carries approximately 50% of the trips to downtown in each of the major expressway corridors. It would take 29 lanes of expressways to accommodate those Metra riders." I believe by any standard, that is a service that has real value, by several criteria.
A problem overlooked by both proponents and opponents is how many people want to take public transit but cannot because of lack of parking at stations. Phoeebe has often told us that the southernmost station in Charlotte is always full on business days. Southern California has I believe at least 5 parking lot expansions ( some one there know ? ). Here is an example in NJ of people not being able to get a place after 7 am for buses.
http://www.app.com/article/20130106/NJNEWS/301050095/Parkway-exit-109-Park-Ride-lot-has-no-place-commuters-grow?nclick_check=1
It was a money loser to an extent...it served as a valuable PR and advertising tool aimed at stockbrokers, bankers, and big company officers. The real end was when the railroads left the long distance passenger buisness and no longer had commissaries and rosters to cover the jobs.
John WR No doubt you remember this better than I do. The Erie ran bar cars on its trains. Conrail ran bar cars on those same trains. NJT stopped them because they were losing money; only the government could loose money selling liquor by the drink.
No doubt you remember this better than I do. The Erie ran bar cars on its trains. Conrail ran bar cars on those same trains. NJT stopped them because they were losing money; only the government could loose money selling liquor by the drink.
Considering that dining-car service was historically a red-ink item (back to at least the 1920's), it's not surprising that bar service on suburban trains was also a money-loser.
By the seventies bar cars were a board placed across two seats and a bucket of ice. Back when, there was an actual kitchen or bar set up and a steward to serve even at the seat.
henry6 Bar cars on the NYC, NH, LIRR, and PRR also would indicate a martini or bourbon exceeded the value of a beer at that time.
But you could (and as far as I know still can) buy beer, wine or liquor at Hoboken Terminal and drink it on the train. The train remains the only civilized way to travel.
A group called the Mother Nature Network. has posted a map on FB which shows NJ has the largest population percentage reliant on public transportation. So, that show that some of my observations are jaded to the same extent all others are. But proves there is a need for public transportation and that not all users of public transportation, by far not all users of public transportation, are low income or losers. In reflection, NJ railroads have reflected that with the NY&LB-PRR's The Broker to Bay Head and the DL&W's various Bankers Express's: Hunterdon HIlls, Madison and Morristown along with the drumheaded Lakeland Express. Bar cars on the NYC, NH, LIRR, and PRR also would indicate a martini or bourbon exceeded the value of a beer at that time.
In interests of facts, I should point out that the 10 routes parallel to the Metra lines include three toll interstates continuing outside Chicago, i.e. a combination of expressway and toll. All the routes are plagued with delays during the rush hours.
The 5% transit use national figure tells us it's a small portion of the total, but unless there is a reasonable transit option for every possible trip, it infers nothing about choice. To qualify choice you would need to study lanes where there are options. One poster cited a Chicago statistic where commuter rail gets about 50% of travel compared to parallel freeways. While it was pointed out there is some fuzziness to the stat, it shows a case of approximate parity between the two modes where they go head to head.
Oh and one more item, DART light rail ridership has dropped also for the reason that Dallas employment market still has not fully recovered. Granted some of that spike in ridership was due to the shock of higher gas prices and once that shock subsided some returned to their cars BUT another part of it is that we still have a high unemployment rate in downtown Dallas. I would presume the same is true for Chicago but I have not checked. So this is another shortcomming of just looking at a few narrow stats and saying you have the causation based conclusion.
Parking is NOT free at the DART light rail stations, you have to pay at Parker Road and all the way to LBJ if your not in the DART Light Rail service area and you use the service. Furthermore, Parker Road parking lot is typically full of cars before the morning commute rush hour has even completed. Again you do not mention these items. So my question to you is, where do I park my car for the day if I want to use a Red Line train into downtown? Lets say I live in the Service area and I can park free given that I went to the trouble of obtaining a parking pass.............again, where do I park my car for a day if I wish to use a Red Line train into downtown. That right there limits ridership, you present it as free choice. How is it my free choice NOT to use DART light rail if I can't park anywhere within a mile or two of the rail station?
Where is this information above reflected in the stats you quoted? See my point? You can't have tunnel vision on the stats nor can you say seriously they are a good place to start.
You know I had a similar argument with someone in Milwaukee that was trying to tell me that the Amtrak Mitchell field station was a intermodal station. My response was it was not fully intermodal until it was manned and accepted checked baggage. I cannot detrain at Milwaukee Mitchell Field from any train which has my bags checked in Chicago as there is nobody at that station to unload the baggage car...............yet Amtrak is reporting stats as if it is a fully intermodal station. Is that statistically correct? I don't think so.
schlimm Sam1My main point is that relatively few Americans opt for public transit when they have choices, although they do so in varying degrees depending upon where they live. That point is not supported for the logical reasons I have made abundantly clear, probably to all but you. Why no longer matters.
Sam1My main point is that relatively few Americans opt for public transit when they have choices, although they do so in varying degrees depending upon where they live.
That point is not supported for the logical reasons I have made abundantly clear, probably to all but you. Why no longer matters.
This thread has been viewed 1,905 times and generated 98 responses. It must have taken a significant amount of time to systematically survey even a valid statistical sample of observers and respondents to determine that everyone gets it except me.
CMStPnP Sam1My main point is that relatively few Americans opt for public transit when they have choices, although they do so in varying degrees depending upon where they live. Likewise I have seen no stats that you have presented so far that backs up that point. You don't seem to think beyond a very narrow range of statistics. How many people are in the Dallas Light Rail system service area? How many of those people are traveling downtown to work or work in the suburb they live? How many cars is DART light rail taking off the road? How is DART light rail increasing mobility? As I mentioned before..... 1. Freeway more ubiquitous and easier to acccess than mass transit 2. Freeway usually free and does not require a search for a parking place to use. 3. Freeway in many cases of non-rush hour travel via POV is more direct and faster than mass transit with it's many stops. Make Mass Transit free, Make Mass Transit easy to use from your garage, make sure there is plenty of parking at the mass transit station.....and watch the usage of mass transit increase. Then of course there is this, which completely blows away your ridership stats on DART light rail: http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/10/expect-gargantuan-jump-in-dart-light-rail-figures.html/
Likewise I have seen no stats that you have presented so far that backs up that point. You don't seem to think beyond a very narrow range of statistics. How many people are in the Dallas Light Rail system service area? How many of those people are traveling downtown to work or work in the suburb they live? How many cars is DART light rail taking off the road? How is DART light rail increasing mobility?
As I mentioned before.....
1. Freeway more ubiquitous and easier to acccess than mass transit
2. Freeway usually free and does not require a search for a parking place to use.
3. Freeway in many cases of non-rush hour travel via POV is more direct and faster than mass transit with it's many stops.
Make Mass Transit free, Make Mass Transit easy to use from your garage, make sure there is plenty of parking at the mass transit station.....and watch the usage of mass transit increase.
Then of course there is this, which completely blows away your ridership stats on DART light rail:
http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/10/expect-gargantuan-jump-in-dart-light-rail-figures.html/
Statistics are a starting point. In a previous posting I noted the number of people in the service area by community, i.e. Dallas, University Park, Highland Park, Collin County, etc. I showed their income levels. And I calculated the percentage of actual riders based on the potential riders for the service area. My numbers come from authoritative sources, i.e. DART, U.S. Census Bureau, U.S. DOT, TXDOT, etc.
One can draw legitimately different conclusions from the data. But without it all one has are opinions based on limited observations. Very limited!
People don't have to be going downtown to be potential riders. In addition to the light rail lines, DART has approximately 20 to 30 cross town routes - some go all the way across town (county) whilst others just go part way, as per the DART System Service Map.
You have referenced an October posting on a transportation blog that quotes an increase in August 2012 numbers due to a change in counting methodology. One month of ridership numbers is not indicative of a trend. Most people look at the numbers for a year and then do year over year comparisons.
This morning the Dallas Morning News reported that ridership on the light rail lines is down significantly from 2007 and is flat for this year, even after the opening of the new lines and/or line extensions. But I will wait until DART publishes the 2012 figures, which are audited as part of the financial audit processes.
DART's light rail, as well as the TRE, has taken relatively few cars off the road. Many riders drive to a park and ride lot to catch the train. The Red Line north, as an example, has large parking lots - parking is free - at most of the stations beginning at Mockingbird Lane Station and continuing to Parker Road. Thus, to be accurate, one can say that DART has reduced the distance that the cars on on the road, but they have taken very few cars completely off the road.
Approximately 30 to 35 per cent of the people commuting into the CBD come by DART. Of those traveling on DART's hosted facilities, as DART's numbers show, the HOV lanes host the greatest number of passenger trips.
To dismiss an argument by saying that a presenter doesn't think beyond a very narrow range of statistics is not a valid argument, especially given the fact that you have offered no counter statistics other than to cite a blog report regarding one month of statistics that have not been independently verified. And since it is taken out of context, it adds no insight into the percentage of the population that uses public transit, which was one of the opening questions of this thread.
Anyone who has read my postings carefully knows that my knowledge of DART extends beyond the statistics. I worked on the DART referendum campaign, was part of the citizens advisory committee during DART's formative years, and rode public transit downtown practically ever day for more than 33 years.
Make mass transit free, make mass transit easy to use from your garage. Austin and Portland, Oregon tried free transit for a short period. The results were disastrous. You just lost me.
That point is not supported for the logical reasons I have made abundantly clear, probably to all but you. Why no longer matters. henry6 has speculated as to the tone of your responses. Having the final word seems important to you so, as far as I'm concerned, you've got it. Of all the responses, about 55 disagreed with your thesis. The rest were your attempts to rebut those responses.
Ok, so five (5) per cent is a national figure. It is a starting point that tells us that pubic transit is not widely used in the United States.
So how about 8.5 to 12 per cent of the people in the Chicago area as public transit users as per the APTA. Or 4.8 to 6.4 per cent of the folks in the Dallas light rail service areas. Are these reasonable indicators of people's interest in and use of public transit?
I worked on the DART referendum effort. My big, really big, corporate employer assigned me to the team that got it done. Out of the effort came DART and its light rail program, amongst things. I rode the bus to work practically every day of my working life in Dallas. So where is the motivation issue?
My main point is that relatively few Americans opt for public transit when they have choices, although they do so in varying degrees depending upon where they live.
Sam1 So if I have a view that is contrary to yours, it is a slam? But if you disagree with me, it is an enlightened view blessed by a higher power. Is that your perspective? The real problem is that you don't like the fact that I disagree with you on a number of issues. Unfortunately, instead of presenting a well constructed, data supported counter view, you attack my perceived social and political views.
So if I have a view that is contrary to yours, it is a slam? But if you disagree with me, it is an enlightened view blessed by a higher power. Is that your perspective? The real problem is that you don't like the fact that I disagree with you on a number of issues. Unfortunately, instead of presenting a well constructed, data supported counter view, you attack my perceived social and political views.
The point is that everyone has an opinion off center to you and you have "slammed" everybody who has responded...like you set us all up so you could take shots at us. Even when we agree with a point or whatever, you seem to want to turn it into a "slam" of some kind.
Once again, sam1 misses the point. Since intelligence and skill with figures is not an issue, the motivation is the cause. No one said transit is solely suburban rail. I simply gave Metra as an example of how popular transit can be on a large scale when the service is available. If you do not understand or choose to ignore why the 5% statistic is inappropriate (I will use that term, rather than absurd), no matter the source, for the explicit and clear reasons given, then that is your choice. I am not about to explain it again. Re-read what i stated and reason it out for yourself. My anecdotes were simply a way of illustrating the reasoning behind why your stat is inappropriate. Again, if you do not understand that concept, perhaps someone else can explain it for you.
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