If the diamond is on a low-speed yard lead, it probably won't be replaced until the time comes for other necessary trackwork in the immediate vicinity.
I don't believe Manhattan Transfer involved the H&M in anyway. It was where the PRR exchanged steam locomotives in favor of electric motors to carry trains into New York's Pennsylvania Station. The railroad would "split" just east of there for trains to Penn Sta. and to Jersey City Exchange Pl station. H&M tubes shared the right of way but did not stop at Manhattan Transfer. Journal Square would be the place where the might have been some kind of interchange, actually west of the station probably. The PRR interchanged with the West Shore and the Erie and the Susquehanna at nearby Marion Jct. in Jersey City's Journal Sq. area.
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I believe that the H&M also used to stop at Manhattan transfer, so that people going to lower Manhattan would also change trains there after Newark. Dd you know that the PRR at one time made a stop at Harrison station on it's own platform, now removed which the tracks were still separated from the H&M now PATH tracks.
The PRR Harrison station is the same one that PATH uses today only with it's own platforms possibly island so one can switch to a north or southbound without using stairs to cross over. Im only 27 years old and have been familiar with the line since 1987 and never used the PATH until 1993 and never knew that the PRR had a stop at Harrison until someone on this forum mentioned that the PRR had a platform at todays Harrison station. I will look more into this. If the PRR had platforms when were they removed? I wonder.
There are several good books about the building of Pennsylvania Station in NY that take up the subject of Manhattan Transfer, both by women: one by Lorraine Diehl and the other by ________Jonas. In addition there are book about the PRR, H&M Tubes (PATH), and NJ railroading. A trip to any NJ library should get you any or all of them.
But Henry, wouldn't the Manhattan transfer had to involve PRR and H&M trains? In those days New York Penn Station was actually in Jersey City and you had to take a ferry to Manhattan. That may have worked for people coming across the country with steamer trunks but Charlie Commuter sure would have found it better to hop on a H&M train to the then downtown H&M terminal or Herald Square (even with changes).
No, H&M had nothing to do with it. The transfer was first and foremost for changing from steam to electric locomotive (and vice versa) so that the train could go on to the new Pennsylvania Station in New York City while the steamer lumbered off to Jersey City...maybe with part of the train, too. It was strictly a PRR station and not H&M.
I'll take your word, Henry, that the Manhattan Transfer was used only to change engines on PRR passenger trains.
But I have to wonder who, if New York bound passengers were not changing trains, was changing trains and where were they going.
I'm not sure I follow your second sentence here, John. Up to that time all PRR trains went to Exchange Pl. in Jersey City. When Penn Sta. was built with its electric system, locomotives were changed at Manahattan Transfer. Exchange Place remained a PRR terminal until the end of the 50's with ferry terminal and Tube connections there and trains, steam then diesel, were serviced and yarded there. The major change and lack of need for Manhattan Transfer came when the PRR strung wires from Sunnyside Yard in Queens to D.C. and Harrisburg so that they did not have to make the changeover anymore. Again, any books on the PRR in NJ or the two more recent books about Penn Station itself, available at all NJ libraries I am sure, can explain it all better than I.
Henry,
Let me clarify. The name "Manhattan Transfer" suggests that this was a station where people did actually change trains. I have not read a lot about it (except descriptions of John DosPassos' novel) but the pictures I've seen shows a platform for people to stand on while making the change. If the only thing done was to change engines why have a platform at all? And why call it "Manhattan Transfer?"
Passenger transfer did indeed occur at Manhattan Transfer between the "Hudson and Manhattan", predecessor of PATH, and the PRR. Brian J. Cudahy's "Rails under the Mighty Hudson" includes a section on Manhattan Transfer and a schematic diagram of the track layout.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=rails+under+the+mighty+hudson
Bobinchesco Passenger transfer did indeed occur at Manhattan Transfer between the "Hudson and Manhattan", predecessor of PATH, and the PRR. Brian J. Cudahy's "Rails under the Mighty Hudson" includes a section on Manhattan Transfer and a schematic diagram of the track layout. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=rails+under+the+mighty+hudson
Johnny
Johnny,
You say that in 1930 PRR trains stopped at Manhattan Transfer but my 1937 they did not.
I suspect this is because by 1937 the current Newark Penn Station was open. PATH trains ran into the station (and still do) so there was no longer a need for the Manhattan Transfer.
Since many if not most New York commuters work down town it makes more sense for them to transfer to the Newark--World Trade Center PATH train rather than go to NYP at 34th Street and then take a subway back down town.
John
In 1930 PRR trains would have required the engine change from DD1s or L5s to steam. By 1937 the P5as and GG1s ran through on the new 11000 VAC overhead.
RC
Well, yes. By 1937 PRR could run directly into NY Penn Station with no change of engines. But most New Jersey commuters who work in Manhattan work in lower Manhattan rather than mid town. This is still true today. To get to lower Manhattan it makes more sense to change at Newark from the NEC train to the World Trade Center PATH train.
Another good book to read about the H&M, PRR connection is The Hudson & Manhattan Railroad Revisited by Paul Carleton published in 1990. Although never actually owned by the PRR, both worked hand in hand and worked together on car and electrical/signal design. Many of the H&M components were taken directly from PRR systems.
The original Newark Station, located at Park Place, was also a joint venture between PRR and H&M as was the Manhattan Transfer.
There are still locations where Amtrak and PATH right of ways connect (via switches). One being just outside of Harrison Yards. This is a sore point with the Port Authority as the FRA refuses to allow the PA to remove the switches as this would allow the PATH to become a true subway system and change the design of their cars.
Alan
But the Hudson and Manhattan was owned by the PRR through the 50's in fact. H&M second generation cars even had PRR keystone emblems and PRR was written all over the property..
I don't think that there is any point that the PATH and Amtrak tracks connect directly. They do but not directly straightforward. It's like how the NYC subway connects to the regional railroad system via yards like Coney Island to the South Brooklyn Railroad. They used to before 1935 when the new Market street in Newark was built. However, the PATH ROW might be connected to the Morris and Essex county lines and the Lackawanna cutoff and freight tracks. which are connected to the Northeast Corridor mainline.
henry6 But the Hudson and Manhattan was owned by the PRR through the 50's in fact. H&M second generation cars even had PRR keystone emblems and PRR was written all over the property..
H&M was never owned by PRR. The cars in question had split ownership, half were owned by PRR and half were owned by H&M. This was due to the fact that PRR owned the line into Newark Penn Station and H&M had operating rights on that line.
OK am I the only one who saw "Manhattan Transfer" and thought of these people??
watch?v=B7YsE wQn9c
Possibly you were. There was another Manhattan Transfer, too, back when. I believe it was on the BMT someplace and has since been renamed..but I don't have the information here at hand.
Checked Brian Cudahy's Rails Under the Hudson, his book about the early years of the PRR electrification. He has a great track diagram of MT and copy that shows that H&M was indeed integrated totally with the PRR in and out of MT. A unique feature was that because the H&M cars were narrower than standard railroad cars, there were gauntlet tracks at the platforms so the Tube cars could leave and pick up passengers but not use the gauntlet if the trains wasn't stopping!. Cudahy also explained that the H&M connections to the PRR tracks were removed when MT was demolished; that the station had no access but by PRR or M&H trains; and that the "high line" fill covers most of it now.
I still believe the PRR and PC owned and operated the system until the mid 50's. The H&M may never lost its identity but the operation and company was under the control of the PRR until it set it free because of bankruptcy of the Tubes. PRR did the same with the LIRR in 1949/50.
I've heard PATH trains referred to as a "Toonerville Trolley" because the cars are so small, far smaller than standard railroad cars.
I believe I was always aware that rapid transit cars were only shorter not smaller and rapid transit cars are proportional to railroad standards in terms of size. I don't think the PATH cars are smaller there just shorter. Shorter does not mean smaller in height. Rapid transit cars are heavy for their own size because of the motors.
This is the map I once saw: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/classic/NYCity4.html
alloboard This is the map I once saw: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/classic/NYCity4.html
This is the map I once saw:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/classic/NYCity4.html
activated
alloboard I believe I was always aware that rapid transit cars were only shorter not smaller and rapid transit cars are proportional to railroad standards in terms of size. I don't think the PATH cars are smaller there just shorter. Shorter does not mean smaller in height. Rapid transit cars are heavy for their own size because of the motors.
PATH equipment has a similar clearance diagram to CTA and it's pretty tight. Consider that CTA equipment can be transported on flatcars and still be within railroad clearances. Although they are appreciably longer, I can remember seeing the NYCTA R-46 cars being transported on flatcars on the IHB in a regular transfer run.
Rapid transit equipment is generally shorter, narrower and not as tall as conventional railroad equipment.
henry6 A unique feature was that because the H&M cars were narrower than standard railroad cars, there were gauntlet tracks at the platforms so the Tube cars could leave and pick up passengers but not use the gauntlet if the trains wasn't stopping!.
A unique feature was that because the H&M cars were narrower than standard railroad cars, there were gauntlet tracks at the platforms so the Tube cars could leave and pick up passengers but not use the gauntlet if the trains wasn't stopping!.
The North Shore had similar gauntlets on both the Skokie Valley and Shore line (1940 relocation). At least one station on the NEC had or has gauntlets so freight cars will clear the high level platforms.
How long are the PATH cars? CTA has stuck with 47 feet and 8' 8" wide for a pretty long time.
Length and width of rapid transit cars vary. H&M, Staten Island RR, IRT, and Chicago Transit cars have always bee short because of the almots 90 degree curves. Other, later, lines opened up the curvature and allow for longer cars. In some cases articulated cars were tried!
I understand that the H&M tunnels under the Hudson were built very early on and are narrower than most tunnels. Also, ventilation is by using the trains and tunnels as a piston and cylinder. Each train pushes the air in front of it and creates a vacuum that pulls air in in back of it. And also the curves are very tight. For these reasons cars are both shorter and narrower than subway cars.
The source of my information is conversations with my fellow commuters back in the days when I rode the Erie Bergen County Line in to Hoboken. It seems reasonable to me but I cannot vouch for the total accuracy of my information.
It is all well documented....Google or Bing Hudson and Manhattan Railroad for starters.
New York Times February 6 1908. The headline is Trolley Tunnel Open to New Jersey. This in is a footnote to the Wiki article on the PATH train. However, the newspaper has lost the story; at least that is what their message says when I click on the link. But the headline says it all.
Alloboard,
Your map is fascinating.
The H&M and the PRR main line interchange is amazing! Do you all know that the systematic interconnections and operations of that Manhattan transfer interlock is equivalent to the PATH train line directly connecting to Amtraks and NJTransit at Harrison yard! That will be a very complicated operation. I don't even think that this type of operation will be practical or appropriate because it will be such a mess.
Henry is right about the 50%/50% split in ownership of the Hudson - Terminal - Newark service red Gibbs-designed cars, which was also true for the K-class air-conditioned post WWII replacements, long since relegated to work service for the few remaining. The line west of Journal Sq., including the "H&M" original Newark Park Street elevated station, was totally owned by PRR. It was a joint service, with crews allowed to work through by agreement. There was an extra fare, using tickets, for travel west of Journal Square to Harrison or Newark. Now, the whole line is owned by PATH.
IRT and PATH cars have similar dimension, PATH cars being a trifle shorter. PATh cars cannot operate on the IRT because of the curved side that allows more elbow room for a cross seat or a slightly wider aisle for longitudinal seats. IRT cars cannot operate on PATH because their longer length would give clearance problems on sharp curves. But the original Stillwell-designed "black" cars for the Hoboken and Jopurnal Sq. service (actually very dark green) were run in test operation on the IRT 2nd Avenue Elevated. The black cars were all owned by the H&M. Now the whole line is owned by PATH, including the tracks, but not the RofW, along the corridor, and the Harrison Station.
Going back to the question of track connections there is an industrial spur that crosses the PATH line near the shops east of where PATH leaves the Corridor. One lead connects to PATH, the other goes to what looks like a propane storage facilty. On the Google maps I was looking at, a trackmobile was visible.
I have heard that when the Port Authority took over the H&M trains they were given the H&M Manhattan terminal to develop the land. In exchange they were supposed to keep the fare at 25¢. That of course is long ago. And long forgotten.
henry6Length and width of rapid transit cars vary. H&M, Staten Island RR, IRT, and Chicago Transit cars have always bee short because of the almots 90 degree curves. Other, later, lines opened up the curvature and allow for longer cars. In some cases articulated cars were tried!
Do you know if this is still true? I do know that Newark Light Rail uses articulated cars but most of it runs over rails originally built for trolley cars fairly early on in the last century.
PATH is standard or "heavy" rail while the River Line, HBLR, and Newark Subway are light rail...two different things. But, yes former IRT lines, Staten Island RR, Chicago EL, and PATH are all short cars because of the early building dates of the infrastructures. but were incorporated as railroads and thus heavy rail. The light rail is what used to be trolley lines, or in a stretch, interurban as trolleys were more common to in street tracks. Newark City Subway was built out of Penn Sta. Newark on the underground towpath of and followed the course of the Morris Canal through Branchbrook park. The River Line is light rail but diesel instead of electric.
Thanks for the information, Henry.
I find it interesting that the PATH trains are heavy rail.
I know Newark Lightrail is, as its name says, light rail. However, it does use a pantograph to pick up its electric power. Do you know what the considerations for this may be instead of using a traditional trolley pole? Perhaps higher voltage than in a traditional trolley car?
I'm not that technical. But I would guess a pan is more stable than a trolley pole, can be automatically controlled for raising and lowering. For starters. PATH is heavy rail because it runs trains rather than cars, complete with conductor(s) and a motorman on a private right of way, and signaled ...again for starters.
OK, Henry. I see what you're saying. Now if only you know how to get the fare back to 25¢.
I remember the nickle fare on the Tubes and the subways....er, and trolley cars.
And uses equipment with train doors so crew members can walk the length of the train, and uses high-level platforms. But the main thing is all-private-right of way and grade separated at that!
But there are plenty of Amtrak stations without high level platforms. Sometimes there is no platform at all.
Amtrak is not a rapid transit system it is a passenger railroad, the step above rapid transit.
Certainly Amtrak is a passenger rail system. However, it also operates commuter service under contract with some states so I think there is an overlap here.
No doubt you know that back in the days when Amtrak operated Clockers a few of them provided commuter service in New Jersey. That agreement fell apart. However, I think it was good for Amtrak. Even though NJT fares are a lot lower than Amtrak fares Amtrack still got a lot of regular riders for seats that otherwise would have been empty and even carried standing passengers. I commuted on Amtrak trains. I liked them better than I like NJT (although the new NJT double deckers are almost as good).
Back in the 30's my grandfather who was an artist for vaudeville show houses was forced to work in Philadelphia...had to take the LIRR from Jamaica to Penn Sta then the PRR to Philadelphia and back every day for the better part of a year! He made good money, as my mother used to tell us, bringing $300 to $500 home each week, so the sacrifice of commuting to Philly was no hardship as long as he could read his Daily News and snooze Oh, yeah, the reason I mention this is because he rode the Clockers, of course.
Of course the Amtrak ride vs commuter coach ride is different with fewer but more comfortable seats, better trucking and cushioning of the ride, etc. When we do Ridewithmehenry trips to Poughkeepsie we take the Amtrak up and MNRR down for time and comparison.....Also have done Amtrak up to Stamford for ConnDot rides, too. Haven't had enough gold in the purse to do Acela yet, especially to Philly but hope to soon.
,
Your father had a long commute, Henry. I reverse commuted between Trenton and Hoboken for a while. That was enough for me. It was comfortable enough. I got a lot of reading done and had coffee on the train. But it does take up a lot of time.
Amtrak coach seats are more comfortable than the old Pennsylvania commuter seats but Pennsy was pretty comfortable too. The reading lights and trays are the big improvement.
However, I've been noticing that on Amfleet cars the upholstery is wearing out. After a while they aren't as comfortable. Other than that the cars are OK.
I'm too frugal to ride Acela. If time were more important I would but it isn't that important to me.
henry6 Haven't had enough gold in the purse to do Acela yet, especially to Philly but hope to soon.
Haven't had enough gold in the purse to do Acela yet, especially to Philly but hope to soon.
Out of curiosity I checked the fares between Newark Penn and Philadelphia. For Wednesday, January 30 the morning Acela fare Newark to Philadelphia is $97 a little after 10, 11 and 12 noon. That is the cheapest. Higher fare Acelas are $161.
Morning Northeast Regional trains are a lot less, $36 one way. Again, that is the cheapest Amtrak fare.
The Acela is more expensive but not impossible. On the return trip a person could economize by taking SEPTA to Trenton and New Jersey Transit to Newark.
And Acela fares east of NY are lower I think.
henry6And Acela fares east of NY are lower I think.
By east do you mean toward Boston?
I went back and checked again. Amtrak Acela for Wednesday January 30 in the morning is $70. The Northeast Regional fare is $27. Again, it would be possible to return by Metro North via Grand Central Terminal.
Yes. I use railroad directions. All west of the Hudson away from the Hudson to Albany, Port Jervis, Hackettstown, Gladstone, High Bridge, Princeton, and Bay Head are railroad direction west. From GCT, to Poughkeepsie and Wassaic are old school railroad westbound but MNRR northbound; CT destinations are all east and always have been. All LIRR out of NYP, LIC, and Brooklyn are eastbound. From Philly to Atlantic City is southbound.
You can follow railroad directions as: odd number trains are westbound or north bound'; even numbered trains are eastbound or southbound. There are exceptions and weird situations, of course, but these are the rules of thumb. Up here in BIngahmton the D&H was a north-south railroad and all others east-west. Any D&H train from Albany to BInghamton was southbound and Binghamton to Albany was northbound. There was, however, a D&H train which was designated a southbound because it went to Sayre, PA. It was a westbound train on the Erie then an eastbound train on the Lehigh Valley from Owego, NY to Sayre, PA, then returned westbound on the LV to Owego, eastbound on the Erie to Binghamton but still carded as a northbound on the D&H. The LV carded a similar turn train with the same directional designations as Sayre was west of Jersey City and away from Sayre all was westbound. These were freight trains, mind you. But if you look at a passenger train timetable you can see the train numbers and determine the railroad direction...and usually the actual direction, too.
John WR henry6And Acela fares east of NY are lower I think. I went back and checked again. Amtrak Acela for Wednesday January 30 in the morning is $70. The Northeast Regional fare is $27. Again, it would be possible to return by Metro North via Grand Central Terminal.
Amtrak fares are demand marketed...the closer to departure, the fewer remaining space, the more costly the ticket. Six months out you can get a good price, six minutes out you shovel out a lot.. The problem my ridewithmehenry trips have with Amtrak is that often we don't know sometimes until a week or less before hand or the weather or something else at the last minute could cancel the trip..
henry6Amtrak fares are demand marketed.
I find that what is important is to book 14 days or more in advance. But given the nature of what you do I don't know if that is possible.
Depends if I feel like gambling and risk swallowing the loss if I book too far in advance. Or gamble that there is space that morning. But if I do book Amtrak in advance, those I book for have to pay me in advance, too.
One minor correction: In Chicago, we call it the "L", not the "El" or some other term invented by unknowing outlanders.
CSSHEGEWISCHIn Chicago, we call it the "L", not the "El" or some other term invented by unknowing outlanders.
In New York before there were subways there were elevated railways. There are still some. The name was shortened to "El" and is pronounced like the letter "L."
Originally elevated trains were pulled by steam engines. They could not possibly have been put in tunnels.
And some New Yorkers and all Chicagoans used the abreviation "L" and not "El."
And some steam rapid transit trains did run in tunnels, notably in London. Also on Atlantic Avenue (LIRR) service in Brooklyn (much shorter than the existing subway of course, but with "L" type equpment including Chicago Forneys displaced by electrificaiton) and Park Avenue Manhattan.
New Yorkers who use L for elevated train might find themselves confusing people who believe they refer to the L train.
I know DL&W steam locomotives ran through the Bergen HIll tunnel. But I can't believe steam engines ran through long tunnels.
The first St. Clair Tunnel between Port Huron and Sarnia was operated with steam locomotives when it first opened. Several asphyxiation incidents forced the change to electric operation.
The Moffat Tunnel in Colorado was operated with steam locomotives. I don't think that Rio Grande ever considered electrifying the tunnel operation.
CSSHEGEWISCHThe first St. Clair Tunnel between Port Huron and Sarnia was operated with steam locomotives when it first opened. Several asphyxiation incidents forced the change to electric operation.
In some ways the good ol' days were pretty bad.
The Bergen Hill Tunnels were well ventilated and short enough that steam was not a problem. Diesel fumes, however are and there are rules and guidelines. Steam in tunnels came to be a major problem in and out of GCT forcing electrification on the NYC. Some tunnels had giant fans to push steam out, others had doors and shafts, some were electrified until dieselization came about.
As you point out, Henry, the Bergen Hill tunnels have ventilation shafts and they are not too long. I've gone through them on diesel trains many times with no problem for anyone.
As I understand it the City of New York passed an ordinance forbidding steam locomotives in the city. The NYC then started using electric locomotives. That was early in the last century.
PS. I don't think the New York Central & Hudson River RR had a lot to do with the Manhattan Transfer.
John WR PS. I don't think the New York Central & Hudson River RR had a lot to do with the Manhattan Transfer.
Yes and no. NYC and PRR were at each other's neck to get the Gotham traffic...and Manhattan Transfer was the result....especially once NYC started laying the 3rd rail, PRR couldn't move fast enough to do the same.
The B&O was granted access to Penn Station to enhance the movement of passenger traffic between New York and Washington by the War Board during WW I and continuing until 1924 (I think).
Did the RDG-CNJ portion of the New York routing bring these trains to Manhattan Transfer so they could also get Electric power, or was Electric power added to these trains at some other location? I have never seen a B&O public timetable from this era.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
henry6Yes and no. NYC and PRR were at each other's neck to get the Gotham traffic...and Manhattan Transfer was the result.
Yes, but these wise men of Gotham left us with a special curse: Their stations were built with no direct connection and to this day we live without it. To have gotten from GCT to the Manhattan Transfer a train would have had to gone north far enough to go back on the Hell Gate Bridge. With luck the bridge would be closed. Did any train ever do that?
They were competitors, why would they have wanted to work with each other. PRR had the NYNH&H via the Hell Gate Bridge and NYC had them as tenants from the virtual beginning. There was basically no reason to cooperate when you were competing as NYC and PRR were. It was a different time with different dynamics at work.
henry6It was a different time with different dynamics at work.
Yes, it was a different time with different dynamics at work.
Not only in New York City but also all over the country railroads would deliberately build their terminals unconnected to other railroads. For a long time some railroads would even refuse to haul cars from other railroads. The Central Pacific refused to accept cars from the Union Pacific at Ogden Utah. Passengers had to get off one train with their luggage and board another train. And as Robert L. Young famously pointed out a pig can travel coast to coast without changing trains but we human beings still cannot.
Such is the legacy of private railroad companies.
I've always thought that the PATH ROW has now fully been disconnected from Amtrak's Northeast Corridor. However I believe that there are still some switched that allow PATH to merge into Amtrak's main line on PATH's southbound track. The switches are clearly visible in this map: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/dock.gif It was rebuilt in May 22,1937 when Manhattan Transfer was removed and the last revision of the DOCK interlock was of April 29,1967 unless there has been another revision recently.
Part of the H&M/PATH line to Newark was owned by PRR which is why it is occasionally referred to as the "Joint Operation" and why PRR owned some of the cars in that service. Position light signals were in operation on the line and there may have been some freight customers on the line that were served by PRR.
H&M never had freight on its lines. Journal Sq. to Newark had (has) two reverse signaled tracks for PATH. At one time there was PRR traffic on those tracks perhaps in the Meadows but only as running tracks not to service any place. Keeping H&M/PATH trains separate from any PRR/PC/CR/CSX/CSAO traffic is of highest priority and is how it is operated today.
This discussion reminds me of the guys back in the 70's or 80's who tried to hijack an PATH train on its way to Newark and demanded it take them to Florida!
LOL! WOHAA HA HA HA!!! A PATH train to Florida!? Yeah OK!!! HAA HAA HAA!!! I bet you those folks can't tell the difference between diesel and electric. It's like hijacking a NYC subway train and demanding it to take them to California.
I just realized how could the H&M had operated with PRR trains on the same track! The H&M was a rapid transit, and they operate on a frequent time slot. So how could they have coordinated schedules and signaling? It's like having PATH trains operating on the Morris & Essex county line trains to Hoboken and Northeast corridor to NYC Penn station with PATH traffic too! How was the H&M and PRR joint operation ever possible?
How many Newark stations were really there? I've known the history of the PRR for 14 years not but never recalled any articles on Park place or South street. I recently obtained the PR Triumph V New York To Phila. I know know that the first Station on Newark was on ground level with two tracks circa 1870. Then the second was circa 1913 4 tracks elevated, and the third one was built in 1935 to today with 6 tracks and one PATH track in the middle of six, and one upstairs. Funny I'm 28 years old and have been riding this line since 1988 and never knew that Newark had track H upstairs until about 2004.
One interesting point: to this very day, the PATH equipment is FRA compliant, including the buff-draft regulations appropriate to 'main-line' railroads, as a consequence of the joint PRR operation.
See here, for example, for some idea of what the "Joint Service Electric Railroad" operations involved.
Naturally, 'regular' PRR trains did not operate through the actual Tubes, but there is no more 'difficulty' running a PRR train to Jersey City between two scheduled H&M trains than there would be, say, in operating a diesel-powered work train between two subway trains. Meanwhile, PRR did own a percentage of the Tube-spec cars. Brian Cudahy (in 'Rails Under the Mighty Hudson, 1975) had a good discussion of the practicalities of the joint operation,including these details (taken from a railfan.net posting years ago):
".......only PRR-owned cars were ever equipped with cab signals during the 'joint service' days; the MP-38's and the 'K' cars were all so equipped, and only PRR cars could be positioned at the front and rear of trains; H&M equipment could only be placed in mid-train positions......" ".......during the old 'joint service' days, the H&M actually and literally shared trackage with the PRR beyond Journal Square, and motormen were required to pass a PRR book-of-rules examination. Since the line could be traveled by either a rapid transit or railroad train, smash-boards were installed at key points to prevent Pennsy engines from taking incorrectly set signals, and venturing onto tight trackage reserved for the shorter (and narrower) H&M/PATH equipment......."
I think this addresses the concerns you mentioned... but I strongly recommend that book as interesting further reading if you are interested in what is now the PATH service. (See Inchesco's post of Dec 9 in this thread for the Amazon URL)
RME
Incorrectly set signals is a mistake one can't afford!
Yes, Cudahy's book...long time since I read it and so forgot! Important study of the Tubes and PRR....
henry6They were competitors, why would they have wanted to work with each other. PRR had the NYNH&H via the Hell Gate Bridge and NYC had them as tenants from the virtual beginning. There was basically no reason to cooperate when you were competing as NYC and PRR were. It was a different time with different dynamics at work.
As you can see, Henry, when you posted this last December 28 you started me thinking about it. The difference, of course, was that private railroads had no sense of public responsibility. Or am I being too harsh? I would like to see a better reason for these kinds of decisions but that is the best one I can come up with.
John WR henry6They were competitors, why would they have wanted to work with each other. PRR had the NYNH&H via the Hell Gate Bridge and NYC had them as tenants from the virtual beginning. There was basically no reason to cooperate when you were competing as NYC and PRR were. It was a different time with different dynamics at work. As you can see, Henry, when you posted this last December 28 you started me thinking about it. The difference, of course, was that private railroads had no sense of public responsibility. Or am I being too harsh? I would like to see a better reason for these kinds of decisions but that is the best one I can come up with. John
I suspect it has something more to do with the New Haven being Mr. Morgan's railroad, and his wanting to have a piece of both the NYC and PRR terminals. Remember the story about the meeting on the Corsair? What gave Mr. Morgan the authority to compel Roberts and Depew (and by extension the Vanderbilts) to stop the (destructive) competition?
[As an aside: it appears the reason the meeting was held on the Corsair is similar to the reason the 'advanced degrees' in Scientology are held on ocean cruises...]
Edited to improve semantics, 4/11.
I'm old, Overmod, but not quite old enough to remember the Corsair meeting. However, I have read about it in history books.
I think J. P. Morgan saw the competition between the New York Central and Pennsylvania as destructive to both and wanted to put a stop to it.
1. Before the building of Penn Sta Newark, Manhattan Transfer was the only transfer point between PRR trains and the PRR-H&M joint service between Hudson Terminal and the special Park St. Elevated Sta. in Newark.
2. PRR and H&M-PRR joint service trains at one brief time did use the same platforms at Harrison. There is not room for any other platforms at Harrison. PRR trains stopped stopping at Harrison before WWII. However, frieght was on occasion loaded or unloaded on those platforms during WWII. At one time there was caternary as well as third rail. Nosing on the platforms was added after WWII restricting track access only to the PRR-H&M joint service cars, half owned by each.
3. Officially, the line west of Journal Sq. was PRR, not H&M. Now, 100% PATH
aegrotatioDon't forget the long-forgotten Susquehanna Transfer station, too!!
Susquehanna Transfer station was a circa WWII development by NYSW to allow passengers to transfer to buses going to NYC and later to the Port Authority bus terminal and had nothing to do with PRR/H&M or JC.
Dave, on a recent ride into Newark Penn I noted cat over the PATH track into Harrison station from Secaucus Jct...not sure where it started and not sure it is used...
Interesting story.
I had always wondered why the Q (in bankruptcy and still technically under Erie control) built the station where it was, instead of running through the Palisades Tunnel and then across to a transfer station near the Lincoln Tunnel portals. Aside from the obvious ... the 3.6% grade in the tunnel may have had something to do with it.,,
Isn't this transfer station more or less exactly where the "7 line extension" first stop in New Jersey, and big park 'n ride lot expansion, would be? ...
The B&O bus transfer, as happens, has a rather more interesting history than I'd thought. At one point the buses were ferried across (via CNJ ferry) before they started using the Holland Tunnel after it was finished [presumably this was after they were 'kicked out' of Penn Station in 1926.
Something I had not realized was what the buses did on the Manhattan side for a 'terminus' -- at least some of the buses didn't have one! They ran a loop to New York points including a number of hotels, Columbus Circle and Union Square, and ticket-office points... perhaps making lemonade out of the lack of a fixed station point. I can easily see convenience in being picked up right at my hotel, complete with checked baggage...
Presumably there were stops on the Jersey side, too, but I don't know precisely where they were.
Doubt the B&O bus could find Jersey stops between the Holland Tunnel and the terminal...train schedules didn't show them except to and from the Terminal and one or two addresses downtown NY. What I think was even more unique about the B&O bus was that it actually was trackside on the platform and not out in the parking lot!
The Susquehanna's Susquehanna Transfer was actually in the middle of a park and ride where mostly Public Service but also other buses ferried to the Port Authority BT . Suzie's ticketing arrangement was through the PS bus.
I rode the B&O in 1945. The bus used the CNJ Ferry, not the Holland Tunnel. As far as I know, the B&O buses never used the Holland Tunnel except when ferry operations were curtailed by fog or ice. I used, with my Columbia Grammer School 8th-grade classmates, the Columbus Circle B&O bus station.
PATH and railroad on the same track? Not today, but in the classic period, the PRR line between Journal Square and the tower east of Harrison Station regularly saw a mixture of MP-54 PRR trains bound for the PRR Exchange Place station, rush hour K4's for 12-car Bay Head Junction trains, occasional freights, steam and then diesel, three round trips of Lehigh Valley trains for Jersey City, and every six minutes during rush hour of the third rail World Trade Center - Newark PRR-H&M Joint Service Trains.
South Brooklyn freight trains regularl mixed with PCC cars on MacDonald Avenue, with steels and open-gate el cars on the Culver-Line structure overhead, and with steels and D-Type articulates on the West End and Sea Beach lines, the latter with three trolley-wire-equipped freight sidings off the northbound (furtherst north) local track.
When Culver was only on the surface before the 1918 el structure, LIRR steam specials to Coney Island, trolley-pole elevated trains (third rail used from Manhattan to 36th street), open bench and closed streetcars, and an occasional freight train, all shared the double-track line.
It would be possible to couple a diesel to the PATH cars with an adapter coupler, which are available, and haul them off to Florida if there was a good reason to do so. They would have air-braking, but not full dynamic brakes, so speed would have to be limited. Possiblyi make the run down tthe corridor at 2AM. Of course you might be able to do this with a string of subway cars as well.
When the R-32's first arrived I rode a demonstration set from Upper Leverl Grand Central Terminal to a temporary wood platform at Mott Haven Yard.
NewPATH cars have been tested for speed on the LIRR.
How did the R-32's wind up on the Grand Central Terminal tracks? I also recalled that on National train day a year or two ago, there was an Acela and Amtrak regional trains there too .
alloboardHow did the R-32's wind up on the Grand Central Terminal tracks?
Through Mott Haven yard.
The cars were coming from Budd in the Philadelphia area. I have not been able to confirm how they actually came to the New York area, whether south(perhaps from a trip across the now-closed bridge route via Maybrook) and then following the New Haven connection to the NY Central, or across the Hudson and perhaps up the East or Harlem river, by 'lighter.' Since the Brightliners ran on the southern part of the BMT initially, I's suspect the South Brooklyn connection from a barge trip for the 'production' deliveries, but the demonstration trip (September 9th, 1964, and covered in the New York Times but I'm too cheap to pay the $3.95 they want for online access to the story) would be different. The trip was specifically intended to prove that 'new' subway equipment could run over regular commuter lines. (Whether the shoes and voltage needed to be adjusted for the trip is for more enthusiastic transit people to discuss)
I also recalled that on National train day a year or two ago, there was an Acela and Amtrak regional trains there too.
Suspect they were towed in, and connected to platform 'shore power' for HVAC and lighting.
daveklepperIt would be possible to couple a diesel to the PATH cars with an adapter coupler, which are available, and haul them off to Florida if there was a good reason to do so.
You mean I could get on the wrong PATH train and find myself in Florida?
Itwould not be the wrong PATH train because you would not be allowed to board unless you were a PATH or AMTRAK empolyee asigned to the special move. Besides, it would probably board only the Maintenance Center, not at any station.
davekleppertwould not be the wrong PATH train because you would not be allowed to board unless you were a PATH or AMTRAK empolyee asigned to the special move. Besides, it would probably board only the Maintenance Center, not at any station.
Are you sure? I don't want to make a mistake and end up in Florida the next time I ride the PATH train.
John WR davekleppertwould not be the wrong PATH train because you would not be allowed to board unless you were a PATH or AMTRAK empolyee asigned to the special move. Besides, it would probably board only the Maintenance Center, not at any station. Are you sure? I don't want to make a mistake and end up in Florida the next time I ride the PATH train
Are you sure? I don't want to make a mistake and end up in Florida the next time I ride the PATH train
Worry about this as much as you worry about a train dropping through the Hell Gate Bridge when it rises like the Great Pumpkin...
OvermodWorry about this as much as you worry about a train dropping through the Hell Gate Bridge when it rises like the Great Pumpkin...
That's why I sit watching the bridge. Amtrak takes no precautions, absolutely no precautions, against the bridge being open. Someday it will be open and I'll be there to flag down the train and save all those lives.
Scenereo for a PATH train to Florida:
PATH is extended to NWK Apt., and PANY&NJ wants to encorage Florida residents to use NWK instead of JFK or LAG and so wants a PATH train parked at Miami Airport TriMet station for display.
One seat ride to anywhere you want...no checked baggage...no diner....no sleeping cars....but the price is right and you don't have to change trains...
henry6One seat ride to anywhere you want...no checked baggage...no diner....no sleeping cars....but the price is right and you don't have to change trains...
I've heard that subways are for sleeping. The PATH from Florida to Newark Liberty Airport adds a new dimension. Of course once you get there you don't need the plane if you are going to New York. Just stay on a couple of more stops. And all for $2.25.
parked for display, not for riding:
Use Newark Airport and have a subway ride direct to the Financial Center, Department Stores. Fashion Center, Empire State Building, Greenwich Village, Javits Exhibition Center, fine restaurants of all ethnic varieties, and some of the best hotels, all within easy walking distance of our Manhattan PATH subway stations, and all for @2.25.
daveklepper Scenario for a PATH train to Florida: PATH is extended to NWK Apt., and PANY&NJ wants to encourage Florida residents to use NWK instead of JFK or LAG and so wants a PATH train parked at Miami Airport TriMet station for display.
Scenario for a PATH train to Florida:
PATH is extended to NWK Apt., and PANY&NJ wants to encourage Florida residents to use NWK instead of JFK or LAG and so wants a PATH train parked at Miami Airport TriMet station for display.
Not quite. That would get the PATH consist deadheaded down to Florida... but not with pax aboard.
If PANY&NJ can make Stewart an airport... why not have a joint arrangement with TriMet, kinda like one of those old pen-pal programs where your city 'adopts' something in another city. And hey, we were talking about four-region run-throughs; why limit that excellent idea? Then --
Declared policy is to provide a one-seat ride between PA airports
PA is best off doing that with strictly PA assets, and those need to be FRA compliant...
How convenient that the PATH cars are, in fact, largely FRA compliant.
Now, they go to the Obama government and get funds to put 'special' interiors for inter-airline connections in the airport trains... they were going to do that anyway, but now extra $$$ to license that Chinese girl's approach to optimize utilization of dormition infrastructure via 'deployable overhead rest modules' and optional-mode elastomer-reinforced fabric privacy implementation devices and stuff.
Then get hold of Elon Musk and tell him one answer to his present woes with the Feds would be to make a big, really big version of a 'multimode' BEV, and build SuperCharger stations up and down certain strategic transportation corridors. Then just get hold of some slug/mother connection sets and wire up the TMs for optional external tractive power provision. While we're at it, we can use this as a relatively noncritical live-fire test of PTC as it seems relatively unlikely that over-the-road timekeeping for this, ah, servicing of the taxpayer base (particularly given the known delays in travel via BEV, even with SuperChargers) will be an excessively significant critical-path parameter or whatever.
We could also try using hydrogen fuel cells for power, but that is clearly too futuristic for an eminently practical analysis like this one.
Pity this didn't come up until it's over 2 weeks late.
Overall and on the serious side, how useful is rapid transit to airports? In view of luggage? In view of largly business class air transportation? Wouldn't commuter rail or even Amtrak stops more relevant? Would rapid transit better serve other markets?
IN MY OPINION rapid transit is immensely useful to airports.
I very seldom travel on business with large amounts of luggage -- in fact, it's usually one carry-on-size suitcase (not even one of those 'store it up in the front'-sized bags) and a briefcase and laptop.
On the other hand, I have no interest in blowing multiple sawbucks on a Senegalese fellow in a high-dollar hack, or some 'town car' limo service -- let alone an actual waste-of-resources stretch.
Going to LaGuardia, I happily used the subway plus Q10 or whatever, instead of the 'one-seat' bus alternative. Philadelphia is infinitely more easy to use now that it has direct rail.
I don't think very much actually does have to be added to 'transit' cars to make them airport-shuttle-serviceable. You'd use more comfortable seating, and worry less about vandals and urine issues. Adequate room -- perhaps using aircraft-style bins -- to keep your carryon stuff easily accessible to you. Larger luggage is easily handled by having marked locations on the platform corresponding with areas on the train where a luggage area (needs to be little different from what's on interterminal and rental-company shuttle buses0 stands ready -- with only slight actual additional work, you can pre-check with airline, flight. and destination info so the bags wind up at the right security point, or preboarding claim area on security level, within the terminal.
Yes -- if you can arrange larger rolling stock with wider clearances and perhaps more amenities, and your organization has the budget for the necessary capital and infrastructure, 'go large'. Yes, provide an enhanced kind of 'kiss 'n ride' where passengers can be dropped off with luggage without strain. Yes, provide adequate free and secure parking to make it easy to do 'long-term storage' away from the airport environs. But these are all relatively 'no-brainer' solutions for what customers actually want when they use this kind of service.
Much of the key attraction of 'one-seat' is actually more related to the hassle involved with the changes, including actually having to locate and lay hands on luggage you can't keep with you. That applies in particular to any 'transit' setup that actually leaves you short of the right level of your terminal. So a 'train to the plane' that actually drops me off in Howard Beach somewhere is not really an answer, and a train that drops me off at the far end of a long transfer run or clever little automatic tram system is not all that much better... unless the necessaries are thought out properly.
The idea of an Amtrak stop closely integrated enough with an airport to do this... well, I'd sure love to see it. I already make considerable use of hotel 'courtesy vans' to access regional and local rail, say, in Laurel when going through to Bethesda, and while that usually doesn't involve Amtrak, if I need to go up to New York it's not much more work to get to an Amtrak train.
Same point for regional/commuter rail: a close enough 'pass' to actually get to an airport stop is going to be unlikely. Transit size, and transit grade and curve ability, makes fast light rail just as good as 'bigger' trains for most of the logical city-to-airport distances that a 'mass' service of any kind would provide. And there is at least the opportunity to provide many more stops, and by extension 'normal' service between non-airport points, with a transit version.
In Memphis, the logical routing choice for a fast one-seat airport rail system was discarded in the initial scoping process (!) precisely because the 'bang' for the multibillion 'bucks' needed to involve things like 'community service' for the areas the line would run through, and not just provide rocket service for the jet set. Much of this wouldn't apply as strongly to regional-rail-scale alternatives, and would therefore involve either more political will or more disposable local income to undertake at that scale.
The flip side, of course, is that if the trip takes longer than a bus, and requires more stops and starts than a bus, and doesn't come closer to the terminal than a bus... it's really hard to make the argument that spending All That Money is better than running several different classes of efficient bus in the first place...
9 Amtrak Monday through Friday trains to Washington and 10 to New York stop at Newark Liberty Airport. All are Northeast Regional trains. All New Jersey Transit trains that pass the station stop. NJT has no special provisions for luggage. Outside the rush hour space is available and I have never seen a problem. During the rush hours I guess it is just crowded.
Of course you have to transfer to the monorail to get to the airport. The transfer is all level and the monorail runs frequently. The service is popular; many people use it. The monorail costs about $5 but that is a lot less than a cab would be.
henry6 Overall and on the serious side, how useful is rapid transit to airports? In view of luggage? In view of largly business class air transportation?
Overall and on the serious side, how useful is rapid transit to airports? In view of luggage? In view of largly business class air transportation?
Henry6 --- In Atlanta it is very important. The last MARTA figure was 10% of all boardings in Atlanta was at the ATL airport. No other station even close . Maybe Oltmann can give us the latest figures ?
henry6 Overall and on the serious side, how useful is rapid transit to airports? In view of luggage? In view of largly business class air transportation? Wouldn't commuter rail or even Amtrak stops more relevant? Would rapid transit better serve other markets?
When the R32's ran a demonstration GCT - Mott Haven service, the Central provided replacement shoes. They did not use the production 3rd rail shoes for the demonstration trip, including the wood or plastic attachment board. I did get to see an offside view of a truck at Mott Haven to satisfy my curiousity.
The same is true in Chicago. The Blue Line terminus at O'hare had 3,532,031 passengers in 2012. Midway Airport is served by the Orange Line and that terminal station had passenger volume of 2,833,465 in 2012.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
While the O'Hare station on the Blue Line serves the airport exclusively with no other transit connections, the Midway station also has multiple connections with various CTA and Pace surface bus routes. Much of the passenger volume at Midway may be from transit connections and daily commuters.
Did anyone actually answer this:
alloboard I once found a large detailed blueprint map on the internet of the track diagram from Newark to Penn Sta NY in circa 1910. Where can I find this link again?
I, too, would like to find and examine this map. The need to find it seems to have become lost in discussions of where Manhattan Transfer was, what it did, etc. That is all fine, but it does not address the original question... and I think the answer can be provided remarkably quickly by one of the PRR experts here.
CSSHEGEWISCH While the O'Hare station on the Blue Line serves the airport exclusively with no other transit connections, the Midway station also has multiple connections with various CTA and Pace surface bus routes. Much of the passenger volume at Midway may be from transit connections and daily commuters.
daveklepperPRR and H&M-PRR joint service trains at one brief time did use the same platforms at Harrison.
daveklepperHowever, frieght was on occasion loaded or unloaded on those platforms during WWII. At one time there was caternary as well as third rail.
Like he said B&O trains ran to NY Penn for a few years-- never occurred to me to wonder how. What track did they use to get on PRR?
timzke he said B&O trains ran to NY Penn for a few years-- never occurred to me to wonder how.
As far as the "how" is concerned it began during WWI when the railroads were nationalized.
timz Like he said B&O trains ran to NY Penn for a few years-- never occurred to me to wonder how. What track did they use to get on PRR?
Remember that B&O used RDG-Jersey Central to get to the New York area in the first place. Then look at how traffic got to the Arthur Kill bridge and then Staten Island. Then consider how LV passenger trains got to NYP.
The precise route is covered on the Web. Basically it involved the same arrangement via Hunter Tower to Harrison/Manhattan Transfer. No particular difficulty or surprise I can see, but I'll cheerfully defer to those who know more about this.
Basically similar to the way Rariton Valley ex-CNJ line trains get to Newark today with slight variation. There always was a connection between the CNJ and the LV at Bound Brook, and a connection between the LV and the PRR. There were differences, since the PRR line through Newark was differently located, and the PRR and LV had separate stations, with the connection east of them. But the CNJ did not that a through line through Newark, seving it on a branch from Elizabethport.
There was and still is catenary over the PATH, nee H&M tracks at Harrison. What use it gets is another story, but I did view it this winter myself.
B&O used RDG to Bound Brook and CNJ to CNJ's Jersey City terminal except for the time it was ordered to use Penn Sta. in Newark. Therefore the connection was to the LV which already was using the Hunter junction to the PRR. LV also had a Jersey City waterfront terminal which was later abandoned in favor of PRR's Exchange Pl. until only the Penn Station, NY service was offered. The CNJ's line to Newark was direct from Jersey City (HBLRT uses the ROW in JC today) and from Elizabethport and was stubbed at Newark.
henry6There was and still is catenary over the PATH, nee H&M tracks at Harrison.
Earlier this year I took particular notice of the catenary overhead on the westbound PATH track to the crossover at the west end of Harrison station. Pictures indicate no wire over the eastbound PATH track.
henry6Earlier this year I took particular notice of the catenary overhead on the westbound PATH track to the crossover at the west end of Harrison station.
Sorry...I was there I saw it....Saw my eye doctor the week before, too.
But, in looking at NJT track diagrams there are no track connections indicated to the PATH tracks anyplace...what I maybe saw, according to the diagram, is track 5 or 6 east of the station, but I'm sure it went through the station to comeback out to track 3 just west of the platform and east end of bridge.
henry6I was there I saw it
henry6 I'm sure it went through the station to comeback out to track 3 just west of the platform and east end of bridge.
You sure you mean west, and not east?
I'm not there to see, but I believe there was cat over the eastbound side all the way to the bridge a couple of years ago. There are little extensions off the main cat bridges that carried it. I suspect that is what you saw; perhaps we have potential confusion between 'west side' and 'westbound' although I'm not sure how that can be.
Odd that I cannot find a photo of that side that shows the wire clearly. Somebody find one and post it here.
All the way to which bridge?
The Passaic River Pennsylvania Railroad Newark, New Jersey draw bridge. It is between Newark Pennsylvania Station on the west and Harrison Station on the east. Four main tracks for the Corridor plus an eastbound and westbound track for the PATH. Theoretically you cannot take pictures at Harrison station because The Port of New York and New Jersey Authority does not allow taking pictures of their facilities and they will stop you: crews will yell at you and notify their police department to come and get you. However, I didn't know that and was taking pictures on the eastbound platform before being told not to...I did stop but had already gotten some shots away before I got away. None of my pictures show wire over the eastbound track and in fact shows eastbound track west of the station and before the bridge not having any crossovers so that wire would not be needed there. Westbound, however, cannot be determined from the pictures. All I know is after seeing a discussion here some months ago I was determined to check things out. On Thursday Feb 28, we boarded a train at Secaucus Jct., I sat on the right side and watched out the window...there was a catanary over the PATH track into and through Harrison Station. I mentioned it on that thread discussing it at the time and someone confirmed what I saw. I will not be getting down that way again for quite a while so if anybody down there can take a look and make sure, would appreciate it. My eye doctor says I do not need new glasses, but he's not a psychiatrist. The NJT track diagrams do not show a connection but they only show tracks they would be using...
henry6there was a catanary over the PATH track into and through Harrison Station.
Don't recall the situation east of Harrison. The tracks that PRR and H&M shared had catenary-- some of that catenary's still there. But no reason the H&M-only tracks would ever have had catenary.
In fact they did just that, TIMZ. Joe Boardman used be the Commissioner of Transportation here in Binghamton, NY and I knew him back int he 80's, so I called him and asked if he could have his forces put up a catanary wire on the westbound PATH track through Harrison, NJ station. He replied that he needed until the end of February to get it done and I said ok and when I went there at the end of February there it was..
Then you told him okay, you can take it down now. Did anyone get pics while it was up?
Maybe try Google map streetview?
schlimm Maybe try Google map streetview?
I just did but can't tell. What may have happened is that we were coming in on track 3 and I saw wire above on track 5...but I hope someone there can help us out...
Some pics of the westward PATH at Harrison
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jag9889/4450569265/sizes/l
http://www.flickr.com/photos/milantram/4420520303/sizes/o
http://www.flickr.com/photos/trevonhaywood/8047626879/sizes/l
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kpmarek/2686024929/sizes/o
and one of the eastward
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1987porsche944/426203025/sizes/l
Here's one of the westward track approaching Newark
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=85367
During WWII there was a wide gap between the joint service cars and the platforms at Harrison, according to what I remember. I cannot be certain if this existed before WWII, but I think it did. This was corrected after the war ended. I remember the platforms being of wood construction, not the current concrete platforms. The PRR had plenty of steam locomotives to spot a freight car at a platform during night periods when there were long gaps between joint service trains, but I am not certain that both platforms were used, and suspect only one. And this was not a regular proceedure, just a special move. So the use for freight and the existance of catenary are separate issues. The PRR steam locomotives were generally built to clear regular high platform stations and did run through North Philly when that had been so equipped.
I would suggest, however, that if the westbound PATH track has catenary, it probably always did have catenary. And that would have been the platform where the occasional special freightcar was loaded during WWII.
Did the PRR and the Seaboard Airline Railroad form Washington DC to Florida work hand in hand?
Everyone take a look at this map: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/dock.gif
This should explain everything. I believe that the last connection between the PRR and the H&M now PATH has been removed. This map says built Sept 18,1910 rebuilt in May 22,1937 when Manhattan Transfer became obsolete, and was last revised in April 29,1967. If you look at the map, as of 1967 there were direct connections between the westbound and eastbound tracks.Now the question is what is the story regarding what I believe is now the Kearney Connection. It is now a flying junction which I believe that the flat interchange between the PRR and the H&M has been converted into a flying Junction. Historically The Erie railroad later Erie Lackawanna now NJT's Morris and Essex county lines had crossed the PRR "grade separated', but I do not see that in this map why not?
alloboard Everyone take a look at this map. This should explain everything. I believe that the last connection between the PRR and the H&M now PATH has been removed. This map says built Sept 18,1910 rebuilt in May 22,1937 when Manhattan Transfer became obsolete, and was last revised in April 29,1967. If you look at the map, as of 1967 there were direct connections between the westbound and eastbound tracks.Now the question is what is the story regarding what I believe is now the Kearney Connection. It is now a flying junction which I believe that the flat interchange between the PRR and the H&M has been converted into a flying Junction. Historically The Erie railroad later Erie Lackawanna now NJT's Morris and Essex county lines had crossed the PRR "grade separated', but I do not see that in this map why not?
Everyone take a look at this map. This should explain everything. I believe that the last connection between the PRR and the H&M now PATH has been removed. This map says built Sept 18,1910 rebuilt in May 22,1937 when Manhattan Transfer became obsolete, and was last revised in April 29,1967. If you look at the map, as of 1967 there were direct connections between the westbound and eastbound tracks.Now the question is what is the story regarding what I believe is now the Kearney Connection. It is now a flying junction which I believe that the flat interchange between the PRR and the H&M has been converted into a flying Junction. Historically The Erie railroad later Erie Lackawanna now NJT's Morris and Essex county lines had crossed the PRR "grade separated', but I do not see that in this map why not?
I couldn't find the map you are referring to...but the Erie RR never was a factor. The DL&W's main line went under the PRR main to Pennsylvania Station where NJT's Mid Town Direct now joins the Corridor. The DL&W was the Morris and Essex or Morristown Line and the DL&W merged with the Erie to form the Erie Lackawanna.
HOWEVER AND MORE to this thread...the pictures reveal there is no cat over the westbound track. But there are lots of wires. I think the train I was riding was on track 3 into Harrison and the cat I saw was over track 5...I was looking up to see the wires and not down to see the tracks. Apparently. But earlier maps do show wire over the then H&M, and I do remember riding the DL&W and seeing wire over the H&M westbound track. NJT track diagrams do not show any junction of PATH and AMTRAK/NJT/CSX track but there is an interchange further east near Journal Sq.
Sorry, I forgot to add the link.
If you look at the upper right hand corner of your map you will see the legend "correct as of 1-1-68." This was still in the days of private railroads. When it came to sharing facilities they absolutely refused (unless there was a financial connection) because they believed it would reduce there profits. This was part of their traditional "public be d@mned" philosophy articulated so well by William H. Vanderbilt.
daveklepperThe PRR had plenty of steam locomotives to spot a freight car at a [Harrison] platform during night periods when there were long gaps between joint service trains, but I am not certain that both platforms were used, and suspect only one.
H&M trains were hourly (or more frequent) in each direction all night. Think H&M single-tracked from Journal Square to Newark?
They do just that today when track maintenance is required.
Again, this was not a regular procedure. (Loading the frieghtcar.)
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