What is more efficient and cost effective to used a third rail or overhead?
BNSFwatcherWhen Amtrak instituted service on the "West Side" line, from Spuyten Duyvil to Penn Station, was any of the line electrified? Do the dual-mode GEs (Dash9-42DP???) run on Diesel within Penn Station? Are they capable of running on both under- and over-contact third rail?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
CSSHEGEWISCH On the CTA, the Evanston line changed from overhead to third rail at South Blvd, the Lake Street line went to overhead at Laramie, where it dropped to ground level operation. Various non-revenue tracks were also powered by overhead. On CA&E, the Batavia branch was mostly third-rail. The Cook County Branch was freight-only and all overhead wire.
On the CTA, the Evanston line changed from overhead to third rail at South Blvd, the Lake Street line went to overhead at Laramie, where it dropped to ground level operation. Various non-revenue tracks were also powered by overhead.
On CA&E, the Batavia branch was mostly third-rail. The Cook County Branch was freight-only and all overhead wire.
Additions:
(1) The CTA Evanston line trolley wire originally went all the way to Howard Street. I'm not sure when it was cut back to South Blvd, but it would have been after the CTA electric freight service was discontinued in the early 70's.
(2) CTA also had trolley wire over one track (the west track) on the embankment between Howard and Wilson, and then continuing down the incline north of Wilson to the interchange with the Milwaukee Road at Montrose. Both 'L' and North Shore trains operating over this track between Howard and Wilson had to use their poles (I've seen many pictures of NSL trains with their poles up on this segment), You can still see the cut off stubs of the trolley supports, which appear to have been metal "Bates" poles. I vaguely recall that there was some gauntlet track on this segment as well, but I don't remember where it was (it could have been between the Granville interlocking and Wilson). The segment was probably converted to third rail soon after the freight operation was discontinued in the early 1970's.
(3) The CA&E Cook County Branch was a passenger operation in its earlier days. It served the Mount Carmel cemetary, and cemetary traffic in the early part of the 20th century (both for the living and the dead) was big business.
When Amtrak instituted service on the "West Side" line, from Spuyten Duyvil to Penn Station, was any of the line electrified? Do the dual-mode GEs (Dash9-42DP???) run on Diesel within Penn Station? Are they capable of running on both under- and over-contact third rail?
I have only traveled the line once, in a "Sardine Can" (Amfleet) car and didn't get a view of anything -- the train was packed!. Worse was to come -- riding backward on an Amfleet car to Philadelphia, and then riding the 'cattle car' to Chicago. My conductor was Al Sharpton's brother, but not as cool! Live and learn!
Bill Hays -- Shelby, MT wdh@mcn.net , to go back-channel and not bore everyone.
Falcon48Additions: There were originally three railroads using the Bay Bridge - Interurban Electric Railway (an SP sub), the Key System and Sacramento Northern. I'm pretty sure that Interurban Electric used the trolley wire on the bridge railroad while Key System and Sacramento Northern used the third rail. The Interurban Electric folded in 1941, and the trolley wire was removed sometime after that.
There were originally three railroads using the Bay Bridge - Interurban Electric Railway (an SP sub), the Key System and Sacramento Northern. I'm pretty sure that Interurban Electric used the trolley wire on the bridge railroad while Key System and Sacramento Northern used the third rail. The Interurban Electric folded in 1941, and the trolley wire was removed sometime after that.
The Sacramento Northern used the overhead on the Bay Bridge, their overhead was energized at 1300 to 1500VDC (depending on year and location). Their equipment had a special shunt connection to permit higher speed operation on the 600VDC Key System overhead that the SN used between 40th & Shafter and the Bay Bridge.
With the development of the "Tri-Power" (electric/Diesel/battery) freight locomotives, the New York Central (NYC) removed a lot of third-rail territory. Among these were the West Side branch, including the 72d St. yards, the Harlem Division's New Haven interchange and industry yard at Wakefield, the Tuckahoe Marble Quarry branch (was it ever electrified?), and all on-line industry spurs and yards. When the Yonkers branch closed, all 3d rail was removed west of Sedgewick Avenue on the Putnam Division.
I don't know if the Port Morris branch, from Melrose, was ever electrified. I would like to see a map of all the NYC Electric Division lines (an ETT designation) and when (dates) the segments were de-energized. Can anyone help?
Bill Hays -- Shelby, MT
Back in the "olde days", the New Haven (NYNH&H) trains would change over just east of Woodlawn (JO) Tower, NY. The westbounds (down) trains would lower their pantographs and lower their third rail shoes on a downgrade before encountering New York Central's under-running third rail and entering the 4-track NYC Harlem Division. This was/is a one-track connection. The eastbound (up) trains would depart third-rail territory on two tracks, on an up-grade. When all the shoes were clear they would be raised, as would the pantograph(s), once under wire (the motor or the entire MU set). This was all done at-speed. Any shoes, not in the proper position, would be 'clipped off' by a heavy-duty trackside fixture. I don't think I ever heard of a train being stranded between the power sources. That would not have been fun! The New Haven "Harlem River" line, to Penn Station, was, and is under catenary.
The New York, Westchester and Boston did not interchange with the NYC and ran under catenary all the way from Port Chester and White Plains to the Bronx. Mike Walker's "Northeast" Atlas, 1998 revision, doesn't show the NYW&B running between New Rochelle and Port Chester, which had eight stations (all NY locations in this comment).
I understand the 'transition point' has been moved east to the vicinity of the (closed?) Columbus Avenue station in Mount Vernon, on level track. Anyone have details?
Over here in South East England we still have a large 3rd rail network (750vDC top contact). This has in recent times been linked up to 25kv overhead electric networks north of the Thames, for example the Thameslink Line which changes voltage at the Farringdon station stop. There's a further link to the west of central London where trains from Clapham Junction (3rd rail) to Willesden Junction (25kv AC overhead) change over but, at least the last time I went with a stop in the midlde of nowhere.
The recent move of Eurostar international trains to St Pancras has stopped the moving 3rd rail/overhead changeover near Gravesend, and before that the changeover at the Channel Tunnel entrance. The trains are now 25kv AC overhead for the whole journey, though in three different catenerary types - High Speed Line, Channel Tunnel and French non-high speed lines).
aegrotatio We mentioned DL&W 25,000 volt. Was this converted to 25,000 volt by NJ Transit in the early 80s and originally another voltage in the DL&W and Erie days? Was pre-EL Erie electric anywhere before merger? I'm very curious.
We mentioned DL&W 25,000 volt. Was this converted to 25,000 volt by NJ Transit in the early 80s and originally another voltage in the DL&W and Erie days? Was pre-EL Erie electric anywhere before merger? I'm very curious.
DL&W had 3000 volt overhead system from Hoboken to Montclair, Gladstone and Dover and also one track from West End to Secaucus Yard (at one time, trunkated well east of Secaucus after WWII). Erie never did electric in NJ but did from Rochester to Avon, NY. Reportedly the commuter Stillwell cars were built with the idea of adding electric components should they have decided to do so in NJ.
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BTW, Grand Central Terminal (GCT) had 'overhead'. Not catenary, but 'overhead third rails'. The stubby "S-motors", short "T-motors", and even the long (ex-Cleveland Union Terminal) "P-motors" had little pneumatically-operated pantographs. The 'overhead third rail was placed above "puzzle switches" (single- and double-slip switches, of which there were/are many) to keep power to the motors where the third rail had long gaps. The MU cars were/are long enough to bridge those gaps, especially when operating as a train. Most locomotive-hauled trains just coasted thru the gap.
Occasionally, a motor would get "hung up". The GCT forces had 'extension cords': long cables with contacts (paddles) at both ends, manipulated by a six-foot wooden handle. One paddle would be laid on a third rail shoe of the disabled motor and the other pressed up on an adjacent live third rail. Scary work. The crews wore heavy rubber gloves and boots. It worked, but was rarely needed. There was a special whistle signal to request assistance. The electricians came running!
daveklepper The "T" Blue Line is the only one left. Chicago at one time not only had Skokie Swift, but Evanston and Lake Street as well. The BMT el trains ran on the surface until 1912 Brighton (now Q and B), 1914 Sea Beach (now N), 1917 West End (now D), and 1918 Culver(now F, very different route north of Ditmas Avenue), where they used trolley poles. And the present "J" did similarly run on the surface on Jamaica Avenue in 1904. (or was it 1901?) Also Canarsie (now L) when it ran all the way to the Shore. Interurbans: Key System or Sacramento Northern, both third rail and overhead were on the Bay Bridge. Someone else tell me who used what. Lehigh Valley Transit, third rail over the Philly and Western, Norristown - 69th Street, trolley elsewhere. (Liberty Bell Route) Sacramento Northern. Trolley Wire in Chico, third rail from there to Sacramento, then trolley wire to the East Bay. Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley, Laural Line, trolley wire in Wiilksbarre and the South Scranton branch, third rail for the rest of the main line. The Great Third Rail, Chicago Aurora and Elgin, mostly third rail, but wire ont he Batavia b ranch and, if memory is correct, in both Elgine and Aurora. The North Shore
The "T" Blue Line is the only one left. Chicago at one time not only had Skokie Swift, but Evanston and Lake Street as well. The BMT el trains ran on the surface until 1912 Brighton (now Q and B), 1914 Sea Beach (now N), 1917 West End (now D), and 1918 Culver(now F, very different route north of Ditmas Avenue), where they used trolley poles. And the present "J" did similarly run on the surface on Jamaica Avenue in 1904. (or was it 1901?) Also Canarsie (now L) when it ran all the way to the Shore.
Interurbans: Key System or Sacramento Northern, both third rail and overhead were on the Bay Bridge. Someone else tell me who used what.
Lehigh Valley Transit, third rail over the Philly and Western, Norristown - 69th Street, trolley elsewhere. (Liberty Bell Route)
Sacramento Northern. Trolley Wire in Chico, third rail from there to Sacramento, then trolley wire to the East Bay.
Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley, Laural Line, trolley wire in Wiilksbarre and the South Scranton branch, third rail for the rest of the main line.
The Great Third Rail, Chicago Aurora and Elgin, mostly third rail, but wire ont he Batavia b ranch and, if memory is correct, in both Elgine and Aurora.
The North Shore
The CA&E in Chicago did have small segments of trolley wire at the far ends of the Aurora, Batavia and Elgin lines. They also had trolley wire on their Bellwood-Mt. Carmel cemetary branch. The most extensive trolley wire was on the West Chicago-Geneva-St. Charles branch (abandoned in 1937), since this branch operated in the streets of all three of the named cities.
The North Shore Line was almost exclusively trolley wire on its own tracks. The only third rail segment was about 2-3 miles of track on the Skokie Valley Route between Howard Street and East Prairie Road (now part of the CTA Yellow Line). Presumably, this was because of the CRT (now CTA) Oakton Street shop complex just east of East Prairie, which had to be accessible by rapid transit cars that weren't equipped for overhead power collection.
CSSHEGEWISCHOn CA&E, the Batavia branch was mostly third-rail.
I may be wrong, but I thought the Batavia branch of the 'Roarin Elgin was overhead from Batavia Jct. to the riverside terminus in Batavia.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
The DL&W was 3000V Dc overhead, like the Milwauykee. Jersey Transit converted it to 60Hz AC, 25,000V In was never AC under DL&W or EL.
The operation of RDC's into GCT behind MU cars or locomotive-hauled trains was an attempt to provide more one-seat rides to outlying points during off-peak periods.
In the waning days of the New York Central System, they tried a lot of innovative thingies to help them with the overwhelming losses of the commuter business. One innovation was coupling an RDC ("Beeliner"), or two to a MU set during off-peak hours. The RDCs would hook up with the MUs at North White Plains (eastbound) or detach there, westbound and go on their way up the Harlem Division. The MUs (St. Louis Car Co. 4500s, or earlier) would tow them into GCT. I'm sure they weren't designed for trailers! The RDCs would have to keep their engines idling for hotel power and would, usually, have their train routed on one of GCTs loop tracks for rapid departure. They did stink up Grand Central Terminal a bit. Dunno if it helped the 'bottom line', but it was innovative!
Bill Hays
I went to high school in Mount Vernon, NY ('53-'56) and spent a lot of time in, and around, Woodlawn ("JO") Tower. It was an interesting operation, when the eastbound New Haven trains changed from 3d rail to catenary. They came off the Harlem Division and went up a hill towards Mount Vernon. They had to raise the third rail shoes (which were pneumatically operated) and raise the pantograph(s) before stalling, as there was a "dead zone" between the power sources. Lots of 'hooting' on the whistles, especially on the MU cars' communication lines, acknowledging that the shoes were in the proper position or the pantographs were in the same.. There were special fixtures on both the eastbound and westbound tracks that would 'clip off' a third rail shoe that wasn't in the proper position. A safety procedure, methinks. There were scores of clipped-off shoes at all locations.
When the FL-9s came along, the New Haven crews cheated. They would fire up the Diesels once they got north (NYC West) of Tower "U" (59th St.) and Diesel the rest of the way. Guess that took them off the NYC's electric meter, but it sure did stink up the tunnels. They still had to remember to raise the shoes after passing Woodlawn, which was often forgotten. Clip-clip-clip-clip.... The EP-5 "Jets" didn't have the Diesel option, so paid attention at "JO". What a cool loco! Yar! I remember the EP-4s and EP-3s, too! Next: RDCs in GCT!
I was aware of the changeover on Metro North, I'm more curious about rapid transit operations as opposed to regular rail operations.
NJT also does changeover at Matawan on the NY&LB/ NJCoast Line...NJT has MU's capable of both systems but have to stop train to make changeover therefore not an option for operational use....LIRR changeover I believe occurs at Sunnyside before going under because of the unreliabilty of the units.
I understand the changeover point has been moved from Woodlawn to Mt. Vernon East and the 3rd rail extended there, to permit the coast-through changeover to take place on more level track. But I have also been told that when the catenary was rebuilt, it was restored to Woodlawn in the interest of greater operational flexibility.
Hi! Metro-North in the New York City Area does several changeovers on lines. The Metro-North New Haven line (former NYNH&HRR) leaves Grand Central Terminal using 3rd rail on the former New York Central Harlem Line. When the train switches from former NYC trackage to former NYNH&H trackage in Woodlawn, NY, the 3rd rail shoes disengage and the pantographs go up. (NYC used under-running 3rd rail. NYNH&H used catenary.) The trains use dual equipped MU cars. The changeover is done by the motorman throwing a control switch in the cab.
Trains on NYC going past Croton-Harmon use dual mode locomotives, using 3rd rail from Grand Central or Penn Station until Croton (the end of electrification on the former NYC Hudson River mainline) and then switch over to diesel power. This was territory of the famous FL-9, the last cab units in regular passenger service in the US. The Long Island RR also has dual mode diesels for running in and out of Penn Station. A selector switch in the locomotive cab is moved manually.
In New Jersey, on NJ Transit, connections have been put in between the former Delaware, Lackawanna & Western mainline and former PRR main (Northeast Corridor). At the connection, trains switch between 25,000v (DL&W) and 11,000v (PRR). NJ Transit ALP44 (similar to Amtrak AEM-7) and ALP46 electric locomotives switch over automatically between the 2 voltages. Both lines use catenary
The CTA converted the Skokie Swift to an all third-rail operation a year or two ago. Besides MBTA's Blue Line, are there any other rapid transit lines that still use both third rail and overhead for their current supply with an en route changeover?
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