BNSFwatcher I recently (again, CRS) a picture of an "R" motor that was quite different from any others I had seen. It looked like a Swiss "Alligator"!, i.e. an elongated steeple-cab. It was pulling a passenger train! What where there? R-1, R-2, and R-3s? Anything published about them? P. S.: that steam-generator car, on the Harlem, was 3d rail powered. Hays
I recently (again, CRS) a picture of an "R" motor that was quite different from any others I had seen. It looked like a Swiss "Alligator"!, i.e. an elongated steeple-cab. It was pulling a passenger train! What where there? R-1, R-2, and R-3s? Anything published about them? P. S.: that steam-generator car, on the Harlem, was 3d rail powered.
Hays
If it looked like a "Crocodile", it was probably a PRR L-5. They were third-rail locomotives that were intended to replace the DD-1's. Some of the DD-1's were transferred to LIRR when the L-5's were built, but the L-5's were not a total success due to their longer rigid wheelbase.
Last week, I saw, on the web (dunno where. CRS! I'll look again) pictures of motors in Detroit. They were lettered for Detroit River Tunnel Company and Michigan Central Rail Road and New York Central Lines, all on each loco! I think the pictures were c.a. 1906 (?). Apparently NYC under-running third-rail standard. Interestingly, they had the little pantographs on top, too, for cross-over work. Anyone know the history of the D. R. T. C. electrification?
Thanks for the info. I remember seeing the all-black "R" motors on the Hudson Division and the West Side line. I saw an "R" in passenger service on the Harlem Division. It was towing a steam-generator car. Could have been the winter of 1953, after we moved from New Haven territory. CRS, fur sure!
BNSFwatcher UPDATE: Does anyone know the disposition/ultimate fate of the electric motors that New York Central used in the Detroit River Tunnel? When was it de-electrified? Just curious...way out of my territory. Hays
UPDATE: Does anyone know the disposition/ultimate fate of the electric motors that New York Central used in the Detroit River Tunnel? When was it de-electrified? Just curious...way out of my territory.
The Detroit River Tunnel was de-electrified around 1954. The steeple-cab motors were scrapped. The R-2 class boxcabs that were transferred from New York were either scrapped or sold to the South Shore Line.
Glad to hear that Ohio Brass is still in business. YOu might write them and ask for a listing or catalogue of their railway related products, both in regular production and custom ordered.
Probably, today, most pantographs come from the the Faverly Company in France. But GE and Westinghouse built their own pantographs in the past.
All trolley wire is caternary. Catenary is simply a shape that forms between to points supporting a string or a wire with any flexibility. However, some railfans reserve the word for an overhead wire system that has both a messenger, the upper wire forming the catenary shape, and the contact wire, which is supposed to be held approximately level. And as you pointed out, their were installations with two messangers, forming triangular "catenary" and double messengers, where the main messanger supports and intermediate messenger that supports the trolley wire, as on much of the original PRR installation.
Another "off-the-wall" question: who made pantographs? Also, what is the defining difference between 'trolley wire', simple overhead, and "catenary". I should check Wikipedia, but I'm really lazy... The original New Haven catenary was very heavy-duty stuff: Three triangular messengers with an under-slung contact (copper) wire. I notice that they have recently repainted the lattice-work catenary towers. Not a job I would undertake!
I think the New Haven used to, occasionally, lubricate the contact wires (with graphite?) and had a team in Grand Central Terminal that would inspect/replace the pantograph running shoes during layovers. There were "pocket tracks" in Grand Central Terminal where the "Jets" (EP-5s) would lay-over, under the Waldorf-Astoria, including FDR's platform, just northeast of Tower "C". The "Pan Crews" would be there every day. They would patrol the platforms where the MUs were idle. NYC didn't have third-rail shoe inspectors in GCT. All that was done at Harmon or North White Plains. Dunno where NH checked their shoes, but it must have been out of third-rail territory.
Bill Hays
I checked the Hubbell/Ohio Brass website. No joy. I could find no reference to third-rail shoes. Maybe it is a minor part of their business. BTW, Mr. Hubbell invented the thingie you screw into a light fixture and it allows you to plug in a male line cord. It is called a "Hubbell", in the trade, to this day. Wish I had known that the shoes were a copper/brass alloy! My scrap dealer screwed me!
daveklepperI guess when I have time I'll explore the web and see if OB is still in business.
http://www.hubbellpowersystems.com/powertest/ohio_brass/ohiobrass.html
Johnny
Ohio Brass was a major manufacturer. They also made streetcar and trolleybus wire frogs, "ears" to attach catenary to span-wire, and lots of other rail related items. I think also rope trolley catchers and retrievers. (Catchers will keep the rope from running out should the pole dewire, while retrievers actually pull the pole down to the roof. The former were in general use on moderate speed streetcars while the latter were used on high speed interurubans like the North Shore and Indiana Railroad.) A brass/copper and steel alloy is standard for shoes.
I guess when I have time I'll explore the web and see if OB is still in business.
Does anyone know who manufactures third-rail shoes? I'd be interested in perusing their web-site(s). I have no idea what they were/are made of. Could there be copper in them?
Hays -- wdh@mcn.net
I don't recall ever seeing a "pile" of shoes. Back in 'the olde days', scrap was going for one-cent-per-pound. I suppose local scavengers got to them quickly in Mount Vernon. Why didn't I think of that?
Chicago may still be using gravity shoes, but other than that, as far as I know, all other current North American third-rail uses have some some kind of spring shoe system. The spring may be a pneumatic spring (like the spring system of many modern railcars of all types uses "air-bags") and be part of the deploy-recess, control system, but it is still a spring.
BNSFwatcherAt he next side-change, an upwardly-sprung shoe would foul the new pick-up rail and be lost! The New Haven's shoes were held down, pneumatically, in third rail territory. I doubt if they were spring-loaded to go up
Actually I have never looked at the thrd rail shoe either over running or under running. However I have looked at the rails and at all ends of a section or 3rd rail they have a ramp rail. ie on an overrunning rail the rail slowly goes down about 4 inches until the shoe cannot contact the third rail. Opposite on an under running rail. That seems to indicate a spring or pneumatic (?) actuation to maintain contact.
The pile of clipped shoes must have been an interesting sight.
I don't ever remember seeing springs on NYC or NYNH&H under-running third rail shoes. Maybe I never looked! I think the shoes ran with the horizontal geometry of the trucks. If anything, they might need a spring, or some flexibility, to allow them to 'dip' where third rail was a bit low. Spring-loading them upward would cause them to rise when there were gaps in the third rail, or it changed sides. At he next side-change, an upwardly-sprung shoe would foul the new pick-up rail and be lost! The New Haven's shoes were held down, pneumatically, in third rail territory. I doubt if they were spring-loaded to go up. A momentary air-failure would have caused them to foul the next third rail and be clipped off. I'm really guessing here and hope for enlightenment. I don't know nutthin' about over-running third rail. Yar, there are 'transition' rails, on a gentle slope, on both systems to handle minor variations in the shoe height when changing sides or bridging gaps. Any Engineers, civil/mechanical/electrical, that is, from 466 Lexington Avenue still out there?
Bill Hays -- wdh@mcn.net
Couople of further point on 3rd rail vs overhead. The first is speed - the fastest regular 3rd rail service I know of is 100mph, it's double that for overhead, with a maximum over 350mph is speed.
The second is about voltage loss - low voltage 3rd rail will lose voltage over short distances, so needs substations every ten or so miles. 3rd rail, with much higher voltages needs many fewer substations. Less fixed plant leads to less cost, though against that the cost of actualy laying 3rd rail is usually much less than stringing up catenerary, as clearances need much less work for 3rd rail.
BNSFwatcherI would opt for 'under-running' third rail. It has these advantages: 1). It is easier to shield from inadvertant contact, if you remember to lift your leg over it. 2). It is easier to insulate, yet gain access, if needed. 3.) It doesn't foul as many "clearance plates", as the overall profile is lower. Yes, some freight cars are restricted from running in third rail territory. 4.) It is more protected from the weather (snow, sleet) than the over-running, upon which ice could/does build up. 5.) It looks better, but that is a NYC opinion. NYC had some flangers in the Electric Division territory. They had blowers that removed snow build-up from under the third rail, in addition to the normal flanger duties. Cool to watch! As far as the original question goes, third rail maintenance doesn't require the use of a "wire train". Short segments can be isolated for work, without on-track equipment. Of course, overhead AC is cheaper to distribute than third rail DC. Bill Hays -- Shelby, MT
I would opt for 'under-running' third rail. It has these advantages: 1). It is easier to shield from inadvertant contact, if you remember to lift your leg over it. 2). It is easier to insulate, yet gain access, if needed. 3.) It doesn't foul as many "clearance plates", as the overall profile is lower. Yes, some freight cars are restricted from running in third rail territory. 4.) It is more protected from the weather (snow, sleet) than the over-running, upon which ice could/does build up. 5.) It looks better, but that is a NYC opinion.
NYC had some flangers in the Electric Division territory. They had blowers that removed snow build-up from under the third rail, in addition to the normal flanger duties. Cool to watch!
As far as the original question goes, third rail maintenance doesn't require the use of a "wire train". Short segments can be isolated for work, without on-track equipment. Of course, overhead AC is cheaper to distribute than third rail DC.
Bill Hays -- Shelby, MT
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
why all the fuss. why not put a diesel locomotive on the end of a set of m-7 cars. penn station to babylon. drop off half the cars then continue east on diesel. only needed for rush hour thru trains.
herbyd
The line north (NYC RR west) of Wassaic is gone, a walking trail in some places, dissapeared in others. Very doubtful it will ever become a railroad again.
There's a guy here called Dutchrailnut who lives in Brewster and is an engineer for MNRR and I hope he can jump in here and answer your questions better. FL9's are gone, Genisis are in and I believe they are duel mode...GCT trains from Wassaic are up to 10 cars I think, the local turn is, I think, two.
You've got some neat ideas which just are not real enough for MNRR. And the lightning striped units are at the Danbury Museum.
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I would like to hear more about the Wassaic service. What kind of locomotives are used from Brewster North/Southeast, westward? I assume they run into/out of GCT also. Are any FL-9s still running? What ever happened to the two FL-9s that were painted in the NYC "Lightning Stripe" scheme? They were way cool, methinks!!!
Anyhoo, I'd love to see restoration of the Harlem Division passenger service to Chatham, NY and on to Albany! The 8% New York State sales tax should easily be able to support the rebuild! What else do they have to spend it on? A Danbury-Brewster-Poughkeepsie shuttle would be neat. Connecticut could donate some of their sales tax revenue to this venture. A couple of RDCs would work, espically with bar service. Onward to Campbell Hall, and beyond. Even eastward to Waterbury and Hartford! Knock the "Yuppies" off the Poughkeepsie Bridge, keep the Hudson clean (no water bottles, diapers, and Labrador 'Land Mines' being kicked into the river) and connect with the M-NR 'Port Jervis' line, etc....
Bill Hays -- in 'no-sales-tax' Montana!
Awesome!What is more efficient and cost effective to used a third rail or overhead?
What is more efficient and cost effective to used a third rail or overhead?
How about over-running or under-running third rail? Are there specific advantages or disadvantages of either kind?
Deggesty Another possible run-through is at Southeast (formerly Brewster North) on the Harlem line. Metro-North runs four trips from Wassaic to Grand Central and five trips from Grand Central (on weekdays) without a change of cars in Southeast, and the timetable shows only one time at southeast for each of these trips. When we went up to Wassaic and back two years ago, I did not have an opportunity to examine the locomotive to see if it had third-rail shoes--but the cars we rode both north and south were the same set (we had to change at Southeast). As to Amtrak's operation out of Penn Station to Rensselaer, the engines are changed at Rensselaer, which is a division point, and is the first/last stop that is long enough for a change. Johnny
Another possible run-through is at Southeast (formerly Brewster North) on the Harlem line. Metro-North runs four trips from Wassaic to Grand Central and five trips from Grand Central (on weekdays) without a change of cars in Southeast, and the timetable shows only one time at southeast for each of these trips. When we went up to Wassaic and back two years ago, I did not have an opportunity to examine the locomotive to see if it had third-rail shoes--but the cars we rode both north and south were the same set (we had to change at Southeast).
As to Amtrak's operation out of Penn Station to Rensselaer, the engines are changed at Rensselaer, which is a division point, and is the first/last stop that is long enough for a change.
Yes, MNRR does have "run through" trains from Poughkeepsie hourly, and from Wassaic, Danbury, and Waterbury during Peak Periods but may be only one or two RT's daily; otherwise change at Southeast, South Norwalk, and Bridgeport for connecting train.
As others have said, it depends on the situation. Generally third rail is more expensive than overhead wire, be it catenary or plain contact (trolley) wire. It does make sense where clearances are tight, so will be commonly used where there is a lot of underground operation. Overhead is mandatory where there is unprotected right-of-way and/or street running.
The early electric railroads were limited to 600V DC and third rail was the only way to get significant power. Later developments with single phase AC and high voltage DC allowed for a higher power draw from overhead, with the highest practical voltage for third rail being 1200V (e.g. Central California Traction) with experiments at 2400V third rail being spectacularly unsuccessful (Michigan Railways). Because of the higher current capacity, third rail systems can run longer trains than low voltage catenary/trolley systems.
- Erik
Tort lawyers/Plaintiff's lawyers/Trial lawyers/Ambulance-chasers all agree that overhead catenary is better, with its very-high voltage AC current. Their clients can trespass on railroad property, climb on equipment, and get seriously injured by the "dangerous" conditions. I think the last case I heard about was near Princeton Junction, NJ. The railroad was found at fault, by a jury, because they presented an "attractive nuisance" and didn't fence the property and post warning signs ever 50 feet, or some such...
Bill
I am sure each had its own advantages and disadvantages according to applicaiton. But it seems a given that anyplace there would be a lot of pedistrian traffic overhead wire would be wise. And it does seem that the higher the voltage the more likely it be overhead rather than on the ground. Railroads on private rights of way tended to utilize the 3rd rail except where there was street running. Interurbans used overhead wire because they did a lot of street running and were often extensions of more localize trolley lines. After that, engineering explanations set in. I am sure each trolley, interurban, and rail line has its own stories, none of which necessarily coincides with another's.
I'm not an EE but I'll try. Much of it depends on the voltage used. Third rail is generally used where the voltage is low (usually 600VDC) because a large conductor is needed to carry enough current to move MU cars on close headways. Remember that the freight locomotives that North Shore acquired from Oregon Electric had double trolley poles in order to draw enough current. Overhead wire is used with higher currents when clearances will allow it.
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