At least pre-NAFTA, there were a lot of restrictions regarding US and Canada railroads. No US railroad was allowed to run into Canada or vice-versa. So a US railroad wanting to operate a line into Canada would have to either create or purchase a controlling interest in a Canadian railroad, incorporated in Canada with it's own officers etc. Same for a Canadian railroad wanting to run into the US. So from a legal standpoint, New York Central trains running from Buffalo to Detroit north of the Great Lakes in Ontario were on the Canada Southern Ry, not NYC.
A short (maybe 35 mile?) section of Canadian National's mainline runs through northern Minnesota, along the south shore of Lake of the Woods. It was incorporated as a Minnesota/US railroad, the Minnesota & Manitoba (or was it the Manitoba & Minnesota? I forget). The railroad per se basically only existed on paper, but it was the railroad CN used to allow them to run into the US and back out again.
There were also restrictions on how long a piece of equipment could be in the other country. It changed over time, but if say a CN steam engine pulled a passenger train from Canada down the Duluth Winnepeg & Pacific line to Duluth MN, it had to be back in Canada in like 48 hours or face duties. For many years a CN SW-1200 was the DWP switcher in Virginia MN where DWP and DMIR crossed, but it was OK to stay because although lettered for CN it was built in the US so didn't have the same restrictions as a Canadian built engine would have. (That might be part of why NYC bought used C&O GP-7s that had been built in Canada for the Canada Southern. The units ran shorthood forward by the way, unlike most NYC early highnose GPs or Alco RS units, etc.)
Interestingly, while the NKP Berkshires had about 4,000-5,000 lbs more tractive effort than the NYC Mohawks, the Mohawks mostly had a better factor of adhesion, with both riding on 4 sets of 69" drivers (except for the L4 Mohawks at 72"). The Mohawks were large locomotives and it seems the NYC was very satisfied with their performance, purchasing 600 4-8-2 units over the years, which is almost as many as the total of 611 Berkshires produced by Alco, Baldwin and Lima.
Mohawks of several classes were a staple on the Canada Southern Detroit/Windsor-Fort Erie/Buffalo, as were 32 assigned Hudsons, plenty of 2-8-2's and those giant 0-10-0 switchers.
I don’t know if any of these Mohawks operated north of the border in to Canada. But they are at least part of the reason NYC never rostered a 2-8-4 on the parent road.
https://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/nyc2811_wk.htm
https://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/nyc2967_rcl.htm
https://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/nyc2886_wk.htm
http://madisonrails.railfan.net/nyc/3034_6.jpg
http://madisonrails.railfan.net/nyc/3029_6.jpg
http://madisonrails.railfan.net/big4-2/abu.jpg
http://madisonrails.railfan.net/nyc/3115_6.jpg
https://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/nyc2927_wk.htm
https://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/nyc2710_findlay.htm
Just a guess, but it would appear the Central was satisfied with their massive fleet of 600 4-8-2 Mohawks. If I remember correctly, the Central generally limited freight to 50 mph, and their 4-8-2 units, many of which were dual service power, were likely more than adequate for what the Central required for mainline freight service.
kgbw49 For quite some time the Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo was co-owned by Canadian Pacific and New York Central. It operated a couple of "very-Central-looking" Hudson 4-6-4s and also operated a couple of "what-an-NYC-Berksire-would-have-looked-like" 2-8-4s. A TH&B Hudson: http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/non-nyc/images/th&b-502.jpg http://media.zuza.com/1/a/1a33f2e8-bbe0-4ee8-93cc-77e666b66510/B821871057Z.1_20150219181548_000_GH11E5L6B.2_Gallery.jpg A TH&B Berkshire: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f1/d2/9e/f1d29eecb87176581b74cd9b35e62c76.jpg http://www.nfrm.ca/images_galleries/images_thb/thb201MontroseRdthmb.jpg
For quite some time the Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo was co-owned by Canadian Pacific and New York Central. It operated a couple of "very-Central-looking" Hudson 4-6-4s and also operated a couple of "what-an-NYC-Berksire-would-have-looked-like" 2-8-4s.
A TH&B Hudson:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/non-nyc/images/th&b-502.jpg
http://media.zuza.com/1/a/1a33f2e8-bbe0-4ee8-93cc-77e666b66510/B821871057Z.1_20150219181548_000_GH11E5L6B.2_Gallery.jpg
A TH&B Berkshire:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f1/d2/9e/f1d29eecb87176581b74cd9b35e62c76.jpg
http://www.nfrm.ca/images_galleries/images_thb/thb201MontroseRdthmb.jpg
How come the Water Level Route didn't have any Superpower freight engines of its own?
First the B&A A-1's, then the P&LE A-2's, now these?
ALL:
I have an answer from Transport Canada: Railroads operating in Canada do not have to be dispatched from Canada. It is my opinion that there was a reason that the GN opted to dispatch from White Rock, BC to Vancouver, BC. In the 1990's the BN moved many dispatchers to Fort Worth. The New Westminster RTC's (dispatchers) were not part of the move for a reason I don't know. I did see some clerical information that excess clerks in Vancouver, BC would not be moved to the US due to immigration issues.
The BNSF and Amtrak Seattle crews are probably examined on the Canadian Operating Rules. I have read the COR and they are similar to the GCOR except that they use different terminalogy then the GCOR. If I have mis-stated any items in the above, please correct me.
Ed Burns
Great Northern did have its own line into Vancouver from Seattle, prior to May 1, 1971, two round trips of "Internationals" were operated.
NorthWest cx500 At Sumas, on the Washington/BC border, the Milwaukee and Northern Pacific interchanged with Canadian roads. I don't know if they crossed into Canada there. I think that they did to switch cars, but that's it.
cx500 At Sumas, on the Washington/BC border, the Milwaukee and Northern Pacific interchanged with Canadian roads. I don't know if they crossed into Canada there.
I think that they did to switch cars, but that's it.
I worked with a Dispatcher (RIP) that at a prior point in his career was a brakeman on the BN in the Seattle area and told stories of operating into Canada and back.
I don't know how much faith to put into his stories as he was also a published sicence fiction author!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
cx500At Sumas, on the Washington/BC border, the Milwaukee and Northern Pacific interchanged with Canadian roads. I don't know if they crossed into Canada there.
LehighVic Ed: Don't forget the Lehigh Valley. The LVR ran its Black Diamond to Toronto headed by camelbacks (Pacifics?) before the turn of the (20th) century and then pulled by conventional (streamlined, Asa Packer's) Pacifics up until the early 60's. Vic Minetola
Ed:
Don't forget the Lehigh Valley. The LVR ran its Black Diamond to Toronto headed by camelbacks (Pacifics?) before the turn of the (20th) century and then pulled by conventional (streamlined, Asa Packer's) Pacifics up until the early 60's.
Vic Minetola
I would be surprised if the LV locomotives ever ran through to Toronto, likely replaced by one from CNR who I believe was the Canadian partner in the through train. (Prior to the 1920s it would have been the Grand Trunk instead of CNR, of course.) Freight interchange would take place at the Niagara frontier.
A number of international interchange locations saw locomotives from either side crossing over to transfer cars. That is operating in Canada, but it's only a very limited sense. For example the Detroit, Toledo & Ironton came through the Detroit Tunnel to deliver cars to the CPR yard in Windsor, Ontario. The Union Pacific crossed from Idaho into Canada at Kingsgate, BC, just far enough to couple to the train delivered by CPR. At Sumas, on the Washington/BC border, the Milwaukee and Northern Pacific interchanged with Canadian roads. I don't know if they crossed into Canada there.
John
Central Maine and Quebec has lines into canada, and so does the NBSR/MNRY/EMRY system
1523 is a GP28M rebuilt from a former Northern Pacific GP9 (NP 332, BN 1917). Was in BN paint with a fairly unique "Think...Before You Cross" Operation Lifesaver slogan before being repainted in 2014.
It's fun to track these things as they move around... 1523 worked in Illinois for a while before moving to Missouri in 2008, Alabama in 2009, then all the way to Washington in 2011 before travelling to Minnesota in 2013, getting the Winnepeg job sometime in 2015 or 2016.
BNSF 1523 is based in Winnipeg, it goes to Fargo every couple of years for service. I’ve been on the unit a few times (before I retired from CP) but I’m not a power guy so I can’t tell you about it’s lineage.
This engine is always put away in the engine shed when they are done switching, but tonight is sitting in their yard south of Corydon Ave.
I took a photo but my Ipad isn‘t cooperating with inserting the photo.
I believe that the St. Clair Tunnel Co. was a separate subsidiary of CN with its own motive power and personnel.
Backshop daveklepper Chicago to both Detroit and Saint Clair, with Canadian National continuing on from St. Clair to Toronto and further east, was Grand Trunk Western, a USA railroad owned by Canadian National. Minor correction. It ran to Port Huron, not St. Clair.
daveklepper Chicago to both Detroit and Saint Clair, with Canadian National continuing on from St. Clair to Toronto and further east, was Grand Trunk Western, a USA railroad owned by Canadian National.
Chicago to both Detroit and Saint Clair, with Canadian National continuing on from St. Clair to Toronto and further east, was Grand Trunk Western, a USA railroad owned by Canadian National.
Minor correction. It ran to Port Huron, not St. Clair.
I noticed that, but then I thought he might have been talking about the St. Clair Tunnel.
The history of Southern British Columbia is all about Railroads and Mining. The CPR vs. The Great Northern. Van Horne vs. James J. Hill.
It was a Cold War, as US interests through Mining and Railroads dominated the region economically and threatened the sovereignty of not only Southern BC but all of Canada. Things cooled off as the CPR built the Kettle Valley Line, and eventually finished it.
It set off alarm bells in Ottawa though.
2342G3 The GN built the line from Princeton to Brookmere jointly used by Kettle Valley and had running rights on CP's Kettle Valley over Coquihalla Pass but never used. Also had line running east from New Westminster to near Hope. this was to be a through Vancouver to Spokane route via Princerton-Orville-Grand Forks-Kettle Falls.
The GN built the line from Princeton to Brookmere jointly used by Kettle Valley and had running rights on CP's Kettle Valley over Coquihalla Pass but never used. Also had line running east from New Westminster to near Hope. this was to be a through Vancouver to Spokane route via Princerton-Orville-Grand Forks-Kettle Falls.
Not quite. The GN ran exactly one train through Coquihalla Pass, a passenger special carrying the Board of Directors not long after Jim Hill passed away.
It seems that much of GN's southern B.C. expansion was motivated by Hill's desire for revenge, as he had earlier been forced out of CPR management.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
In British Columbia Great Northern had lines from Eureka Montana to the Crowsnest pass coal mines at Fernie and Michel. Also a line from Bonners Ferry to Kuskanook on Kootenay Lake(The sKuskanook tation stood until wiped out by mudslide early 2000's) This line connected to an extensive sternwheeler system on Kootenay lake and an ophaned narrow gauge line from Kaslo to Sandon silver mines. Lines from Kettle Falls Wash. to Nelson and Grand Forks parts of which still exist under short lines. A line from Curlew Wa. on the Grand Forks line to Oroville that criss-Crossed the border several time and continued on to Princeton B.C. The GN built the line from Princeton to Brookmere jointly used by Kettle Valley and had running rights on CP's Kettle Valley over Coquihalla Pass but never used. Also had line running east from New Westminster to near Hope. this was to be a through Vancouver to Spokane route via Princerton-Orville-Grand Forks-Kettle Falls.
The Central Vermont had lines to Cantic and St. Johns, Quebec, prior to control by Grand Trunk (c.1898). They were acquired in part to block the Canadian Pacific from entering their territory.
Sunnyland:
The Grand Trunk Western, Duluth, Winnipeg, and Pacific, and the Central Vermont were US subsidaries of the Canadian National Railroad probably due to US regulations.
Grand Trunk was also a USA railroad owned by Canadian National, running from south of Montreal to Portland, Maine.
They often swapped equipment, ditto with another USA railroad owned by Canadian National, the Central Vermont, from again south of Montreal to New London, Connecticut, with connection there to both the New Haven and its own steamship line to New York City. The steamship line was discontinued when war commenced in 1939.
In the 1970's I not only enjoyed steam excursions out of Detroit on the Grand Trunk Western, but also served as a car-host crew-member for steam trips out of New London on the Central Vermont run by Branford Electric Ry. Assoc. The latter usually had Grand Trunk coaches with a Grand Trunk Western or Canadian National steam locomotive, usually a 4-8-4.
The Mowhawk was the Grand Trunk Western's answer to the Perlman degrading of the New York Central's Chicago - Detroit service, with a competitive running time, despite the longer rout via Durand, and a very good dining car.
The last Grand Trunk pasenger service was Friday and Sunday afternoon-evening coach and parlor Portland - Montreal service. No diner, but parlor-car passengers could by sandwiches and hot tea and coffee and cold drinks, possibly wine and beer but unsure of that. This also provided the last Boston - Montreal service after the Alouette CP & B&M two-car RDC train was finally dropped. One could ride the 1pm B&M Budd RDC train to Portland. taxi to the Grand Trunk station and ride its Friday evening train to Montreal. Interestingly, the Grand Trunk parlor car carried the name Alouette!
Of course, the flagship of the Grand Trunk Western was the International Limited, Chicago - Toronto, coaches, sleepers, diner, and lounge. For a while an ex-Nickel Plate lounge car, perhaps two, were used.
Grand Trunk went out of Chicago to Toronto, rode it with my parents. I think it might have been owned by CN or some kind of partnership, but GT was considered an American RR.
There is a map of the Pere Marquette system, which crosses from Michigan into Ontario at Port Huron and Detroit, MI, then crosses back over to the US at two river crossings into Buffalo, NY. I believe the Pere Marquette RR acquired the Canadian route in January 1903. C&O finally swallowed PM in 1947, so I don't think they had any service into Canada prior to that. I can't seem to upload the map for you here. The Pere Marquette started out as the Flint & Pere Marquette, with service from Bay City, MI to Flint opened in January 1862.
That GP9 is now at the Prairie Dog Central.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
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