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Will the Siemens Charger locomotive replace the P40dc's?

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Will the Siemens Charger locomotive replace the P40dc's?
Posted by zkr123 on Friday, May 15, 2015 8:20 PM

With the Siemens Charger locomotive on its way, is it safe to say they will be replacing the P40dc's? Or is it to supplement the Genesis roster?

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Posted by Wizlish on Friday, May 15, 2015 10:09 PM

Please stop asking these wacky questions.

The Siemens Charger is purpose-designed for 125 mph trains.  It has nothing in common with anything a P40 (or any other Genesis locomotive) would pull.  Even with a Cummins QSK (instead of the lame Caterpillar C175 in the EMD Spirit) I have my doubts that high-speed diesel prime movers would have a happy future in 'ordinary' Amtrak passenger services, even 110 mph services.

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Posted by zkr123 on Friday, May 15, 2015 10:31 PM

So you don't think they'll be successful?

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Posted by NorthWest on Friday, May 15, 2015 10:38 PM

We'll see how reliable they are.  They will displace locomotives from corridor services, but these will simply enter the national LD pool (where they will likely be needed due to the inevitable wreck attrition). The P40DCs will not disappear.

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Posted by Wizlish on Friday, May 15, 2015 10:47 PM

zkr123

So you don't think they'll be successful?

My personal opinion is that the market for 125 mph service is not the same as it was for the HSTs in Britain.  The diesel services are more likely to thrive at 110 mph, and HSR in most American corridors where higher speed is warranted is likely to use a higher peak speed, probably above 150 mph, which I think will only be achievable with full electrification (or turbine power). 

I'll be delighted to see AAF or IDOT succeed with their 125 mph peak trains, but I have grave doubts that the expenses will prove justified (over what the 110 mph or much faster alternatives will offer)

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Posted by Entropy on Monday, May 18, 2015 7:14 AM

Wizlish

  Even with a Cummins QSK (instead of the lame Caterpillar C175 in the EMD Spirit)

Lame? huh, please elaborate.

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Posted by Wizlish on Monday, May 18, 2015 10:27 PM

Entropy
Lame? huh, please elaborate.

Leaving aside that 'Caterpillar' and 'success' have not been particularly associated in the field of large diesel locomotive prime movers for decades...

C175 makes a fine constant-speed stationary genset engine ... if you can overlook the emergent speed-stability problems when the engine is at full operating temperature that supposedly make it impossible to synchronize them to line frequency effectively.  Makes a fine truck engine in the 797, if you overlook the bearing longevity issues ... which I think are related to precisely the kind of power excursions that will be likely in HSR service.  I  know of no railroad that's going to be happy with mandatory 250-hour oil changes, especially when they were promised much longer intervals, or having to 'watch' the results of frequent oil tests to catch the momentary 'spike' and then mildly higher levels of bearing metal that correspond to the incipient damage. 

I trust that the problems with local dealers being clueless on locomotive support, with reported 6- to 10-week response times, have been corrected.  I suspect that any 1800-rpm engine making that many hp at that peak piston speed is likely to have trouble in a locomotive environment, particularly in a light monococque structure operating at high speed.  I would certainly like to be wrong, and I hope I am wrong on all counts.  But so far I have seen little contradictory evidence.

I do have to chuckle a bit at Caterpillar claiming credit for the 'over 70,000 rail engines' that EMD has produced.

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Posted by NorthWest on Monday, May 18, 2015 10:37 PM

We're drifting off of the original topic, but in past experience the OP hasn't cared much about where these threads end up.

I think that the Vossloh UKLights (Class 68) will be an excellent preview of how the F125 will perform, as they are somewhat similar in mechanical arrangment (and as an aside, Vossloh is building the F125 body shells). I haven't been able to dig up any reliability data on the 68s.

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Posted by Entropy on Tuesday, May 19, 2015 9:38 AM

 

Wizlish

Leaving aside that 'Caterpillar' and 'success' have not been particularly associated in the field of large diesel locomotive prime movers for decades...

There's truth to that, however over many of those projects SD-CAT and MK5000, CAT wasn't in control and was left to a 3rd party to validate the installation, did things like mate a 3612 engine, ran it at 900 rpm with an AR10 gen end, the 3612 wasn't designed to make full power at 900 and thus was a failure. As for the PR43C; it hasn't shown to be a success, but niether have gen sets overall.

However I would say the 3512/3516 has had some success in rail, GP20D/GP15 built 15 years ago by MPI still in use today. Via rail repowers, PHL repowers, MK1200G.

Still Cummins hasn't had anything to show for in rail other than gensets.

 

Wizlish
C175 makes a fine constant-speed stationary genset engine ... if you can overlook the emergent speed-stability problems when the engine is at full operating temperature that supposedly make it impossible to synchronize them to line frequency effectively. 
So basically you're saying they can't hold 1800 rpm / 60.0Hz ? 9/10 i've seen this occur due to govenor issue. Not specifically on C175.

 

Wizlish

Makes a fine truck engine in the 797, if you overlook the bearing longevity issues ... which I think are related to precisely the kind of power excursions that will be likely in HSR service.

This I did hear about and the good news is, because of Caterpillar's use of the C175 problems have been identified and I believe changes have been made to the engine block or crankshaft design, many haul trucks did recieve new engines. I'm reciving this as a field validation, problems are going to be found and improved. You could say the opposite.

 

Wizlish

  I  know of no railroad that's going to be happy with mandatory 250-hour oil changes, especially when they were promised much longer intervals, or having to 'watch' the results of frequent oil tests to catch the momentary 'spike' and then mildly higher levels of bearing metal that correspond to the incipient damage. 

I got ahold of a C175 Locomotive O&M Manual says oil sample every 250 hr and 1000 hr oil and filter replacement. Valve Adjustment every 4000 hr. I'd agree most high speed engines O&M does state 250 or 500 hr oil changes, as what happens in the field is only a liablity to the manufacture so how is it adventagous for ie MTU to advocate extended oil change. It would only work to their benefit to state 250 hour oil changes.

I do agree high speed diesels have an uphill battle in the rail business, we'll see who has the better product between Cummins and CAT within the next few years. Luckily for CAT they have over 1000 C175 engines in the field, that can't be said for the QSK95.

 

 

 

[/quote]

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Posted by CPM500 on Tuesday, May 19, 2015 5:32 PM

Entropy,

While I hate to correct someone who is obviously 'in the business', I believe that there are more QSK 95's out in the field than were mentioned within this thread.

Of singular note is a re-engined (if not outright re-manufactured) SD90MAC rated at 4000 hp operating on the Indiana Rail Road.There is also an ongoing program to remanufacture WP&Y GE 'shovelnoses' with 1500 HP Cummins. Several were done by the firm in Tacoma purchased by PR-and the rest (along with the 90MAC) were done by a newer firm located in the PNW. The name escapes me at this moment.

Additionally, Motive Power is supplying a group of new builds to a road down under, also with QSK's.

It wouldn't surprise me if both the new EMD and Siemens locos ultimately end up under contract maintenance, as Siemens has done with the new electrics.

CPM500

 

PS:FWIW, I don't see Amtrak investing any money in the P40DC fleet. Some have been sold off-with others in storage. Among other factors, MFI and DC motors are both obsolete technology in the passenger rail world.

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by Wizlish on Tuesday, May 19, 2015 6:51 PM

Entropy
Still Cummins hasn't had anything to show for in rail other than gensets.

That's true in the United States.  And I'd have thought there would be published results from CECX 1919 long before now.  Those results would have a direct bearing on the likely viability of the QSK in the Charger (which was the original subject of the thread) particularly if the engine is expected to be in 'overboost' or whatever they call it to reach nominal 125 mph speed with a train.

Wizlish
C175 makes a fine constant-speed stationary genset engine ... if you can overlook the emergent speed-stability problems when the engine is at full operating temperature that supposedly make it impossible to synchronize them to line frequency effectively.

So basically you're saying they can't hold 1800 rpm / 60.0Hz ? 9/10 i've seen this occur due to govenor issue. Not specifically on C175.

This actually appears to be an emergent problem with C175s, in the last couple of months.  I haven't figured out whether the 'problem' engines had ADEM or ACERT, but apparently when they warm up and come out of loop their stability goes out.  In all fairness, this problem would have nothing whatsoever to do with locomotive performance (except perhaps if the frequency of the HEP system were determined by the traction alternator, which is unlikely).  What I worry is that considering all the work Cat has put into designing the C175, this and the bearing problem are problems that shouldn't be happening.

Likewise the PR43C was what I considered a fair test of the C175 in general railroad service, and the problems I've heard about it were not related to the 'genset' operation at either horsepower extreme with the little C18 cut in.  (HAVE there been any problems with the C18 in this service?  I'd be prepared to bet there were comparatively few...)  If that is wrong, and it may very well be wrong since I'm not privy to the detail of NS testing, I'd appreciate any details you can provide.

Yes, I expect Cat to address the bearing issue with professional skill.  What I'm concerned about is whether the problem is analogous to the cavitation issues in the 6000 hp 'marine-derived' medium-speed Deutz (GE) and 265-H (EMD) -- a materials- or physics-related problem that might not have a cost-effective solution short of extensive redesign.  Instantaneous shock to the engine's bearings is one of the great hazards of railroad service (compared to, say, what mine trucks endure), and what I see (from what I've read) is that the things causing the bearing damage were transient events that were difficult to recognize if not identified at the time they happened, but that caused cumulative damage that was difficult to detect if you didn't know what to look for ... but that could progress to more severe damage with little predictability or advance warning.  I'm concerned that even a couple of incidents of that kind would give the C175 a bad rep as a railroad powerplant, and as you mentioned at the outset the railroad folks may not be willing or able to do the careful timed maintenance checking to catch the problem. 

Has the bearing redesign resulted in the advised interval for sampling being backed off from 125 hours? (I would expect it would.) If it has not, it might be prudent for Cat to apply the shorter sampling to the railroad engines, at least until it's certain that the railroad environment isn't producing more severe stress to the crank bearings.

I'm concerned that 'current' railroad practice with lube oil and changes, particularly on EMD 2-strokes,  might carry over to use on the new high-speed engines.  If I recall correctly one of the issues with the Krauss-Maffei Amerika-Loks had to do with more stringent lube-oil changes than railroads wanted to see.

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Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, May 19, 2015 9:53 PM

CPM500
PS:FWIW, I don't see Amtrak investing any money in the P40DC fleet. Some have been sold off-with others in storage. Among other factors, MFI and DC motors are both obsolete technology in the passenger rail world

I concur; the only way I see any being rebuilt is if enough P42DCs are retired from wreck damage. Even among the units sold, only one NJT unit (4801) is in service, and NJT has been trying to get rid of them for a while.

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Posted by Entropy on Tuesday, May 19, 2015 11:44 PM

CPM500

Of singular note is a re-engined (if not outright re-manufactured) SD90MAC rated at 4000 hp operating on the Indiana Rail Road.

I see this 90MAC is on the rails, havn't heard news from INRR on it so far. What happend to the GO transit Cummins repower?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
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Posted by zkr123 on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 8:45 AM

They should have them be reserve units, and sell the Dash-8's to Alaska Railroad. 

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Posted by GDRMCo on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 9:30 AM
Uh, what?

ML

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Posted by Entropy on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 1:40 PM

Wizlish

This actually appears to be an emergent problem with C175s, in the last couple of months.  I haven't figured out whether the 'problem' engines had ADEM or ACERT, but apparently when they warm up and come out of loop their stability goes out.  In all fairness, this problem would have nothing whatsoever to do with locomotive performance (except perhaps if the frequency of the HEP system were determined by the traction alternator, which is unlikely). 

ACERT is a description for Caterpillar Advanced Combustion Emission Reduction Technology. It was first applied in 2004 to meet Tier III, basically adding cross flow cylinder head, EGR, twin turbochargers, multiple injections on each compression stroke, and the ADEM - Advanced Diesel Engine Management, fancy name for an engine computer, within that you have A3,A4,A5 version ADEM.

CAT has adopted the ACERT name across the board, when you have ACERT engine, will also have an ADEM. 3500C engines don't recieve ACERT labeling though they do employ EUI injection and ADEM. So with ACERT you have both ACERT and an ADEM engine ECM.

Far as the C18 is concerned, its a heavy duty industrial engine, typically used as a HEP in rail application, I don't believe the issue was with the C18 in the PR43C.

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Posted by Wizlish on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 3:00 PM

Entropy
What happened to the GO Transit Cummins repower?

647 seems to have dropped into a black hole.  I presume it's still in Boise, as there would be some excitement if from no other source than Cummins PR when the locomotive goes into actual service or testing on the Kitchener line.

I ASSume the other 10 locomotives will be awaiting the result of testing to make sure there are no 'gotchas'.

These engines are interesting for having two QSK-60s for something like 5400 nominal hp.  At that rating, I'd assume one or both prime movers would be supplying the HEP, rather than retaining the ACERT C27 that I think GO was using on the 710-engined MP-40s.

Who knows the current situation here?

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Posted by M636C on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 8:50 PM
Entropy wrote the following post 20 hours ago:
 
CPM500

Of singular note is a re-engined (if not outright re-manufactured) SD90MAC rated at 4000 hp operating on the Indiana Rail Road.

 

I see this 90MAC is on the rails, havn't heard news from INRR on it so far. What happend to the GO transit Cummins repower?

 
The whole story about CECX 1919 is a little confusing, at least viewed from so far away....
 
The drawings that appeared in the trade press showed an SD90MAC with the QSK95 and the aftertreatment equipment fitted into the hood intended for the 16-265H, and retaining the original EMD radiators.
 
The photographs of the unit moving to the Indiana Railroad showed a locomotive retaining the original cab and hood for the inverters but everything else above the frame was new, including an entirely different design of radiator, possibly with vertical cores in the hood sides. The only reason to replace the radiator would be if the existing one was not adequate, which suggests that the QSK95 needs a lot of cooling.
 
What concerned me as much as anything was that CECX1919 had no headlights. Why would you ship a locomotive to a customer lacking headlights? I imagine they have spares they could install, but something isn't right.
 
When and if the locomotive enters service, we'll know more...
 
I'm not sure what GO were after with the MP36 repower. I heard they were going to use a single QSK 95 but wanted more power.
 
In Australia we have 25 units operated by Watco for CBH, a grain exporter and 16 operated by Chicago Freight Car Leasing Australia.
 
Most of the Watco units are on 3'6" gauge, CBH001 to CBH 017 and CBH 023 to 025, with CBH 012 to 017 having the larger QSK 78 engine, the other having the QSK 60. There are five standard gauge units CBH 118 to 122 which have the QSK 78.
 
All the CFCLA units are fitted with the QSK78 and are standard gauge.
 
 The CBH units are fairly busy, with CBH leasing two GEs from Aurizon (with a grain rake) to keep up with demand.
 
The CFCLA units are lease units, and only about half of them are in use due to the general economic downturn, the ones in use being in grain traffic or containerised export paper traffic. The main operator of the CFCLA Cummins units is QUBE, part of the P&O shipping group, and they have six Chinese SDA-1 units (4000 HP MTU with AC traction) awaiting commissioning.
 
Certainly, the Cummins units have not replaced EMD and GE lease units which are still operating for CFCLA. The main advantage of the Cummins units should be reduced fuel consumption, and being new, greater reliability.
 
QUBE run the Cummins units hard and fast in the export paper service. They replaced 4400HP GEs which went to export coal service, but the train doesn't seem to run any slower with the 3000HP Cummins units at the head.
 
These units don't have to meet Tier 4, so there are few complications, and local regulations ensure that they have big mufflers so they don't have a distinctive sound.
 
But they've done a lot more work than CECX 1919.
 
M636C
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Posted by NorthWest on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 10:47 PM

Pictures of CEFX 1919 for reference: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=205697

What is odd is that it has the rear headlight, but not the front.

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Posted by Bryan Jones on Monday, May 25, 2015 8:37 PM

NorthWest

Pictures of CEFX 1919 for reference: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=205697

What is odd is that it has the rear headlight, but not the front.

 

The CECX 1919 SD90MAC-H repower/rebuild has not been placed into service on the Indiana Railroad yet. The photos of it on the net show it while it was in-transit to Brookville Equipment Company in Pennsylvania where it is being completed before being placed into service and delivered to INRD. The lack of headlights on inoperable and incomplete locomotive is irrelevant to how well it may or may not perform in service once testing begins.

 

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Posted by Wizlish on Monday, May 25, 2015 9:51 PM

Bryan Jones
The CECX 1919 SD90MAC-H repower/rebuild has not been placed into service on the Indiana Railroad yet. .. The lack of headlights on [an] inoperable and incomplete locomotive is irrelevant to how well it may or may not perform in service once testing begins.

Praise the Lord, we have somebody who knows what's up with this locomotive, and why it has taken so absurdly long for it to be put into service.  I await full details.

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Posted by M636C on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 5:27 AM

Bryan Jones

The CECX 1919 SD90MAC-H repower/rebuild has not been placed into service on the Indiana Railroad yet. The photos of it on the net show it while it was in-transit to Brookville Equipment Company in Pennsylvania where it is being completed before being placed into service and delivered to INRD. The lack of headlights on inoperable and incomplete locomotive is irrelevant to how well it may or may not perform in service once testing begins.

Who did the original conversion, and why was it moved to Brookville incomplete?

One thing I noticed but didn't comment on was that the new radiators appear to have eliminated the EMD dynamic brakes from the rear end of CECX 1919 and I wondered what had replaced them? There are some vents that might be associated with dynamic brakes forward of the engine....

M636C

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Posted by owlsroost on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 6:11 AM
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Posted by Entropy on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 6:48 AM

M636C

Who did the original conversion, and why was it moved to Brookville incomplete?

Found out Sygnet the shop in Olympia, WA closed, moved the loco 1919 to Brookvale to be completed.

Wonder what happend to the Peru Rail order Sygnet had?

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Posted by Wizlish on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 8:03 AM

Who did the original conversion, and why was it moved to Brookville incomplete?

Something bad has happened to Sygnet financially, perhaps sometime after the Vectorpoint Ventures investment.  Their CEO was making statements to the rail press as recently as late June of last year, but now barely mentions the company on his LinkedIn page.  Web site is down without comment, and they set the cagy 'robots.txt' flag so I can find no archived versions of the site on the Wayback Machine.  Someone who knows more about the 'ways' of Internet lore might be more capable.

A number of sources indicate the locomotive went to Brookville on some sort of subcontract, e.g. 'to be wired', and delivery required the 'last mile' road to become six-axle certified (how long that might have taken, I don't know).

I suspect there is an interesting story here; perhaps someone better 'connected' can tell it.

The patent for the technology behind the locomotive is interesting:

http://www.google.com/patents/US8935019

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Posted by Entropy on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 11:57 AM

I'm suprised Cummins would partner with Sygnet for this then Brookville (?) I believe this was a Cummins project, CMI does have an exclusive relationship with NRE for one, secondly they could've had Siemens shop build this.

I'm not aware of the status of the Siemens Charger factory, it may not be setup for a "repower" but the NRE/VMV shop is. Weird.

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Posted by M636C on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 9:51 PM

I do recall Sygnet and their website.

The whole idea of containerised power units being somehow cheaper than fitting an engine to a locomotive struck me as wishful thinking.

I think Cummins formed an alliance with Sygnet when they had no links with the real locomotive industry, so before Siemens became a partner.

The SD90MAC was one of the few available units and that it had Siemens traction equipment was fortuitous.

It seems fairly clear that the CECX 1919 locomotive did not have any form of container fitted and the radiators were fitted into the existing structure.

But I'm hardly surprised that Sygnet didn't produce a complete locomotive, particularly given that the original concept was little more than an engine swap and ended up with a completely new unit above the frame.

M636C

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Posted by ALAN THOMPSON on Tuesday, June 2, 2015 12:22 AM

i have had one of the CFCLA CM's put a rod thru the block on me so their reliability is still suspect

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Posted by Speaking clock on Tuesday, June 2, 2015 7:22 AM

The p40's may be going out of style on Amtrak but a rebuilt p40 may stick around.

From what I've seen, railroads do like locomotives that require less service, and when they get a locomotive that requires a lot of service they usually fix it in some way.

the finest example I know are the Indiana and Ohio sd40's.

some of these engines began life in the 70's as 20 cylinder sd45's for the Southern Pacific, who rebuilt them with the 16 cylinder engine, making them an sd40 in all reality.

So if there is a problem with the p40's they will probably get it fixed with a repowering.

amtrak has used repowered engines before, remember Dewitt GP's from the Penn central, the alco RS3's given 567 blocks?

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Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, June 2, 2015 7:59 AM

The P40DCs never really had any problems. They simply got caught up in Amtrak's purchase of too many locomotives when a service expansion failed to happen. The P42DCs were more powerful, and so the P40DCs were mothballed when they were only a few years old. Except for some rebuilds, they've languished in Beech Grove since.

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