As far as I know the only reason the Jersey Central kept any double-enders around was as spare parts sources to keep the other Baldwin diesels on the roster alive. They had no luck selling the other double-enders to others roads either on account of the poor reputation they'd gotten.
Up until at least 1966 the CNJ had one of the double-enders hooked up to supply steam at the Jersey City Station. It was clearly visible on the north side of the train shed just past the tracks that had been used by the B&O trains. IIRC there was a picture of it in Trains Magazine.
DSO17 Up until at least 1966 the CNJ had one of the double-enders hooked up to supply steam at the Jersey City Station. It was clearly visible on the north side of the train shed just past the tracks that had been used by the B&O trains. IIRC there was a picture of it in Trains Magazine.
Interesting! I'm a Jersey Central fan and didn't know that! Thanks!
In all seriousness, does anyone know if an inertial starter was ever tried with a diesel engine? They were used on aircraft engines for a time.
Not to my knowledge with any locomotive-scale engine. Either the size and mass of the flywheel would be prohibitive, or it would require a fairly absurdly high rotational speed to get enough 'inertia' to crank the engine over for the required time ... especially when cold. There would also be some question about the method used to clutch the starter to the engine to avoid shock or stripping at that scale. I would assume you'd have to relieve compression on a number of cylinders...
Don't know if the Jumo 205/Culverin had an inertia starter -- I think these were air. Packard Radial might have had one. Closest this sort of thing gets to a locomotive diesel engine would be the Napier Deltic, but I can't imagine inertia-starting one of those... ;-}
The Napier Deltic....what a unique engine. It clearly shows the difference between maintenance in the US and in Britain. BR was content to send the engines back to the manufacturer when they broke! The DP1 was planned to test in Canada, but never did. This is probably for the best, as railroads didn't like FM's OP, which was much less complicated!
NorthWest The Napier Deltic....what a unique engine. It clearly shows the difference between maintenance in the US and in Britain. BR was content to send the engines back to the manufacturer when they broke! The DP1 was planned to test in Canada, but never did. This is probably for the best, as railroads didn't like FM's OP, which was much less complicated!
Interestingly(and slightly OT), the Napier Deltic engine did see service with some US users, but not as a prime mover for locomotives.
The US Navy purchased a number of Norwegian built Patrol boats that used dual Deltics for Propulsion, and later contracted a US builder to manufacture 6 copies of the vessel under license:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasty_class_patrol_boat
The most impressive Stateside application for the Deltic engine, IMHO, was it's use in powering the ulta- high volume pump of the FDNY's unique and aptly named "Superpumper System":
http://www.ptfnasty.com/ptfsuperpumper.htm
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Just to bring the discussion full circle, here are some comments regarding various methods that were used for starting Deltics:
We specialize in ex navy patrol vessels, a few years ago, due to the cost and scarcity of starting cartridges, we eventually successfully converted D18 -7A's to electric start. At the time we had a good stock of high torque aero engine electric starters. These had a massive epicyclic reduction gear which produced an output speed of 250 RPM. As this was not quite enough torque to turn the Deltics we added a further gear reduction to give us 125 RPM which was sufficient. As you are probably aware the Deltic only requires a slight 'bump over' in order to start. Our biggest problem was shearing of drives due to the heavy load but this was overcome by the use of, I believe, a material known as S99. The other slight problem was the loss of starter exhaust [gas] required to recharge the accumulator. To overcome this we adapted a simple electric solenoid which triggered the accumulator at the critical moment. As I said the conversion was quite successful but as the Deltics were never a popular engine we gradually drifted away from that particular model instead concentrating on the series 3 engines (Nasty class) which were, from the factory, started by introduction of air direct into the cylinders. A much better proposition. I still have a video film of the 18-7A showing our conversion and the engine actually starting. I may also still have some new starter motors but it means searching through a packed container. These were Rotax manufacture, a division of Lucas, and were originally manufactured for radial piston engines. They had a hand cranking auxiliary drive on the side of the casing. I think if I was converting an engine today I would opt for hydraulics where you can have endless power from say a Ton class generator driven pump to a hydraulic motor mounted on the Deltic. I still have an 18-7A reconditioned governor and maybe one or two starter breeches and motors if you are interested.
Just for the record, the 'hand cranking auxiliary drive' was not for starting the engine, it was 'jacking gear' used to turn the engine over before starting to assure there was no hydraulic lock going on (which might bend a rod and make the engine 'put a leg out of bed' when subsequently loaded!)
Note in particular the reference to heavy starting load, and how much rotation was needed to get this particular engine to fire.
Overmod This is interesting because the 'official' EMD literature for AESS says that "It also ensures that the system cannot be intentionally disabled—allowing it to operate as designed while maximizing shutdown time." So it would appear that anything requiring a shutdown serious enough to disable the starting system would have the locomotive out of service entirely.
This is interesting because the 'official' EMD literature for AESS says that "It also ensures that the system cannot be intentionally disabled—allowing it to operate as designed while maximizing shutdown time." So it would appear that anything requiring a shutdown serious enough to disable the starting system would have the locomotive out of service entirely.
Our instructions are to manually shut down any unattended locomotive(s), except if needed to maintain air brake continuity, even if equipped with auto stop/start systems.
Jeff
Overmod Just to bring the discussion full circle, here are some comments regarding various methods that were used for starting Deltics: We specialize in ex navy patrol vessels, a few years ago, due to the cost and scarcity of starting cartridges, we eventually successfully converted D18 -7A's to electric start. At the time we had a good stock of high torque aero engine electric starters. These had a massive epicyclic reduction gear which produced an output speed of 250 RPM. As this was not quite enough torque to turn the Deltics we added a further gear reduction to give us 125 RPM which was sufficient. As you are probably aware the Deltic only requires a slight 'bump over' in order to start. Our biggest problem was shearing of drives due to the heavy load but this was overcome by the use of, I believe, a material known as S99. The other slight problem was the loss of starter exhaust [gas] required to recharge the accumulator. To overcome this we adapted a simple electric solenoid which triggered the accumulator at the critical moment. As I said the conversion was quite successful but as the Deltics were never a popular engine we gradually drifted away from that particular model instead concentrating on the series 3 engines (Nasty class) which were, from the factory, started by introduction of air direct into the cylinders. A much better proposition. I still have a video film of the 18-7A showing our conversion and the engine actually starting. I may also still have some new starter motors but it means searching through a packed container. These were Rotax manufacture, a division of Lucas, and were originally manufactured for radial piston engines. They had a hand cranking auxiliary drive on the side of the casing. I think if I was converting an engine today I would opt for hydraulics where you can have endless power from say a Ton class generator driven pump to a hydraulic motor mounted on the Deltic. I still have an 18-7A reconditioned governor and maybe one or two starter breeches and motors if you are interested. Just for the record, the 'hand cranking auxiliary drive' was not for starting the engine, it was 'jacking gear' used to turn the engine over before starting to assure there was no hydraulic lock going on (which might bend a rod and make the engine 'put a leg out of bed' when subsequently loaded!) Note in particular the reference to heavy starting load, and how much rotation was needed to get this particular engine to fire.
I don't know if any of the marine or locomotive applications for the Deltic engine used an air starter but the FDNY superpumper did...
carnej1I don't know if any of the marine or locomotive applications for the Deltic engine used an air starter but the FDNY superpumper did...
Just for fun, here's a source of information on that.
(Note the other Deltic links at the top of the page... and be sure you have a couple of idle hours available...)
BaltACD I have MU'd up several engine, not that it was in my job description at the time. Plugging in the 27 pin cable and making 5 glad hand couplings is not all that demanding
I have MU'd up several engine, not that it was in my job description at the time. Plugging in the 27 pin cable and making 5 glad hand couplings is not all that demanding
5?? What locomotives are you hooking up??
CN2808 BaltACD I have MU'd up several engine, not that it was in my job description at the time. Plugging in the 27 pin cable and making 5 glad hand couplings is not all that demanding 5?? What locomotives are you hooking up??
Hooking up both sides with 26 air: 7 gladhands (3 each side, plus trainline)
BaltACD may have been hooking up older engines with air sanders, trainline plus 4 on each side.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
Overmod carnej1I don't know if any of the marine or locomotive applications for the Deltic engine used an air starter but the FDNY superpumper did... Just for fun, here's a source of information on that. (Note the other Deltic links at the top of the page... and be sure you have a couple of idle hours available...)
Yep. that's the very site I was referencing; I thought of posting the link but decided it might be too O.T.
It is a fascinating article...
whats a shotgun starter?
Google 'Coffman starter'. Here is a diagram of the basic idea.
The early GE gas-electric V-8 (as described in Trains back in the '70s) used a cartridge starter.
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