Google 'Coffman starter'. Here is a diagram of the basic idea.
The early GE gas-electric V-8 (as described in Trains back in the '70s) used a cartridge starter.
whats a shotgun starter?
Overmod carnej1I don't know if any of the marine or locomotive applications for the Deltic engine used an air starter but the FDNY superpumper did... Just for fun, here's a source of information on that. (Note the other Deltic links at the top of the page... and be sure you have a couple of idle hours available...)
carnej1I don't know if any of the marine or locomotive applications for the Deltic engine used an air starter but the FDNY superpumper did...
Just for fun, here's a source of information on that.
(Note the other Deltic links at the top of the page... and be sure you have a couple of idle hours available...)
Yep. that's the very site I was referencing; I thought of posting the link but decided it might be too O.T.
It is a fascinating article...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
CN2808 BaltACD I have MU'd up several engine, not that it was in my job description at the time. Plugging in the 27 pin cable and making 5 glad hand couplings is not all that demanding 5?? What locomotives are you hooking up??
BaltACD I have MU'd up several engine, not that it was in my job description at the time. Plugging in the 27 pin cable and making 5 glad hand couplings is not all that demanding
I have MU'd up several engine, not that it was in my job description at the time. Plugging in the 27 pin cable and making 5 glad hand couplings is not all that demanding
5?? What locomotives are you hooking up??
Hooking up both sides with 26 air: 7 gladhands (3 each side, plus trainline)
BaltACD may have been hooking up older engines with air sanders, trainline plus 4 on each side.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
Overmod Just to bring the discussion full circle, here are some comments regarding various methods that were used for starting Deltics: We specialize in ex navy patrol vessels, a few years ago, due to the cost and scarcity of starting cartridges, we eventually successfully converted D18 -7A's to electric start. At the time we had a good stock of high torque aero engine electric starters. These had a massive epicyclic reduction gear which produced an output speed of 250 RPM. As this was not quite enough torque to turn the Deltics we added a further gear reduction to give us 125 RPM which was sufficient. As you are probably aware the Deltic only requires a slight 'bump over' in order to start. Our biggest problem was shearing of drives due to the heavy load but this was overcome by the use of, I believe, a material known as S99. The other slight problem was the loss of starter exhaust [gas] required to recharge the accumulator. To overcome this we adapted a simple electric solenoid which triggered the accumulator at the critical moment. As I said the conversion was quite successful but as the Deltics were never a popular engine we gradually drifted away from that particular model instead concentrating on the series 3 engines (Nasty class) which were, from the factory, started by introduction of air direct into the cylinders. A much better proposition. I still have a video film of the 18-7A showing our conversion and the engine actually starting. I may also still have some new starter motors but it means searching through a packed container. These were Rotax manufacture, a division of Lucas, and were originally manufactured for radial piston engines. They had a hand cranking auxiliary drive on the side of the casing. I think if I was converting an engine today I would opt for hydraulics where you can have endless power from say a Ton class generator driven pump to a hydraulic motor mounted on the Deltic. I still have an 18-7A reconditioned governor and maybe one or two starter breeches and motors if you are interested. Just for the record, the 'hand cranking auxiliary drive' was not for starting the engine, it was 'jacking gear' used to turn the engine over before starting to assure there was no hydraulic lock going on (which might bend a rod and make the engine 'put a leg out of bed' when subsequently loaded!) Note in particular the reference to heavy starting load, and how much rotation was needed to get this particular engine to fire.
Just to bring the discussion full circle, here are some comments regarding various methods that were used for starting Deltics:
We specialize in ex navy patrol vessels, a few years ago, due to the cost and scarcity of starting cartridges, we eventually successfully converted D18 -7A's to electric start. At the time we had a good stock of high torque aero engine electric starters. These had a massive epicyclic reduction gear which produced an output speed of 250 RPM. As this was not quite enough torque to turn the Deltics we added a further gear reduction to give us 125 RPM which was sufficient. As you are probably aware the Deltic only requires a slight 'bump over' in order to start. Our biggest problem was shearing of drives due to the heavy load but this was overcome by the use of, I believe, a material known as S99. The other slight problem was the loss of starter exhaust [gas] required to recharge the accumulator. To overcome this we adapted a simple electric solenoid which triggered the accumulator at the critical moment. As I said the conversion was quite successful but as the Deltics were never a popular engine we gradually drifted away from that particular model instead concentrating on the series 3 engines (Nasty class) which were, from the factory, started by introduction of air direct into the cylinders. A much better proposition. I still have a video film of the 18-7A showing our conversion and the engine actually starting. I may also still have some new starter motors but it means searching through a packed container. These were Rotax manufacture, a division of Lucas, and were originally manufactured for radial piston engines. They had a hand cranking auxiliary drive on the side of the casing. I think if I was converting an engine today I would opt for hydraulics where you can have endless power from say a Ton class generator driven pump to a hydraulic motor mounted on the Deltic. I still have an 18-7A reconditioned governor and maybe one or two starter breeches and motors if you are interested.
Just for the record, the 'hand cranking auxiliary drive' was not for starting the engine, it was 'jacking gear' used to turn the engine over before starting to assure there was no hydraulic lock going on (which might bend a rod and make the engine 'put a leg out of bed' when subsequently loaded!)
Note in particular the reference to heavy starting load, and how much rotation was needed to get this particular engine to fire.
I don't know if any of the marine or locomotive applications for the Deltic engine used an air starter but the FDNY superpumper did...
Overmod This is interesting because the 'official' EMD literature for AESS says that "It also ensures that the system cannot be intentionally disabled—allowing it to operate as designed while maximizing shutdown time." So it would appear that anything requiring a shutdown serious enough to disable the starting system would have the locomotive out of service entirely.
This is interesting because the 'official' EMD literature for AESS says that "It also ensures that the system cannot be intentionally disabled—allowing it to operate as designed while maximizing shutdown time." So it would appear that anything requiring a shutdown serious enough to disable the starting system would have the locomotive out of service entirely.
Our instructions are to manually shut down any unattended locomotive(s), except if needed to maintain air brake continuity, even if equipped with auto stop/start systems.
Jeff
NorthWest The Napier Deltic....what a unique engine. It clearly shows the difference between maintenance in the US and in Britain. BR was content to send the engines back to the manufacturer when they broke! The DP1 was planned to test in Canada, but never did. This is probably for the best, as railroads didn't like FM's OP, which was much less complicated!
The Napier Deltic....what a unique engine. It clearly shows the difference between maintenance in the US and in Britain. BR was content to send the engines back to the manufacturer when they broke! The DP1 was planned to test in Canada, but never did. This is probably for the best, as railroads didn't like FM's OP, which was much less complicated!
Interestingly(and slightly OT), the Napier Deltic engine did see service with some US users, but not as a prime mover for locomotives.
The US Navy purchased a number of Norwegian built Patrol boats that used dual Deltics for Propulsion, and later contracted a US builder to manufacture 6 copies of the vessel under license:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasty_class_patrol_boat
The most impressive Stateside application for the Deltic engine, IMHO, was it's use in powering the ulta- high volume pump of the FDNY's unique and aptly named "Superpumper System":
http://www.ptfnasty.com/ptfsuperpumper.htm
Not to my knowledge with any locomotive-scale engine. Either the size and mass of the flywheel would be prohibitive, or it would require a fairly absurdly high rotational speed to get enough 'inertia' to crank the engine over for the required time ... especially when cold. There would also be some question about the method used to clutch the starter to the engine to avoid shock or stripping at that scale. I would assume you'd have to relieve compression on a number of cylinders...
Don't know if the Jumo 205/Culverin had an inertia starter -- I think these were air. Packard Radial might have had one. Closest this sort of thing gets to a locomotive diesel engine would be the Napier Deltic, but I can't imagine inertia-starting one of those... ;-}
DSO17 Up until at least 1966 the CNJ had one of the double-enders hooked up to supply steam at the Jersey City Station. It was clearly visible on the north side of the train shed just past the tracks that had been used by the B&O trains. IIRC there was a picture of it in Trains Magazine.
Up until at least 1966 the CNJ had one of the double-enders hooked up to supply steam at the Jersey City Station. It was clearly visible on the north side of the train shed just past the tracks that had been used by the B&O trains. IIRC there was a picture of it in Trains Magazine.
Interesting! I'm a Jersey Central fan and didn't know that! Thanks!
In all seriousness, does anyone know if an inertial starter was ever tried with a diesel engine? They were used on aircraft engines for a time.
As far as I know the only reason the Jersey Central kept any double-enders around was as spare parts sources to keep the other Baldwin diesels on the roster alive. They had no luck selling the other double-enders to others roads either on account of the poor reputation they'd gotten.
This is interesting because the 'official' EMD literature for AESS says that "It also ensures that the system cannot be intentionally disabled—allowing it to operate as designed while maximizing shutdown time."
Well, all you have to do is hit the "shut down" button and it will stay shut down.
.
For EMD:
Latching the EFCO in the cab disables engine cranking/starting.
AESS is reset when the Isolation switch is moved from start/isolate to run. Very simple-and tamper proof.
Works like a charm
BigJim AESS keeps air reservoirs and batteries topped off...so air supply is not an issue.Which is all well and good unless someone manually shuts down the unit.
AESS keeps air reservoirs and batteries topped off...so air supply is not an issue.
This begs a question, however: what is the procedure when the locomotive is being worked on (for example, blue-flagged) and the engine cannot be safely started? There has to be an override, and I can easily see it being shut off and forgotten, or left off by "accident", or even inadvertently disabled, say, by fire crews who do not understand the fine points of train handling before they go switching things off...
To take this one step further ... just try to move a set of dead cold GE units. Folks, it ain't going to happen with units moving at much more than a crawl, much less move any kind of train unless you are on level ground or going downhill. GE's are programed to a very very reduced load until the engine reaches a certain operating temperature. Yes, even light units will not climb the slightest grade until they warm up.
But to anyone who knows what is best for big diesel engines, this is a GOOD feature, not a bug. Same as the reason for the interminable-seeming delay before GEs load down. We can argue about lawyers, or people afraid of lawyers, or accountants measuring 'power-by-the-hour' downtime and maintenance expenses. But there's also something to be said for automatically preventing overloads, pollution, etc.
Overmod BigJimLet's say a dead cold GE unit is the lead unit in a consist that has been shut down and no air is on the train, how long will it take to get the air built up enough to start the EMD? More than "a few" minutes I can assure you. Even if you close the angle cock on the first car in the train, as it would seem to me common sense to do? Once you have all the engines running, open the cock and start pumping the trainline down... If not... why not?
BigJimLet's say a dead cold GE unit is the lead unit in a consist that has been shut down and no air is on the train, how long will it take to get the air built up enough to start the EMD? More than "a few" minutes I can assure you.
Even if you close the angle cock on the first car in the train, as it would seem to me common sense to do?
Once you have all the engines running, open the cock and start pumping the trainline down...
If not... why not?
To take this one step further (and why not since others seem to want to play the WATER card) just try to move a set of dead cold GE units. Folks, it ain't going to happen with units moving at much more than a crawl, much less move any kind of train unless you are on level ground or going downhill. GE's are programed to a very very reduced load until the engine reaches a certain operating temperature. Yes, even light units will not climb the slightest grade until they warm up.
I don't have direct experience with locomotives but do know a little about mining truck engines, some over 3000 HP. These use air starters. Connecting an air hose from anything with a compressor to "jump" them is much easier than hooking up jumper cables. We use either shop air or service trucks with large diesel air compressors for normal "jumping" but have done it with truck air brake compressors. It just takes longer.
Air starters do not get hot and will crank all day as long as you have air. The first time you hear one up close, you may have some laundry to wash.
If I'm not mistaken, at least the 567 and 645 EMD diesels have wet cylinder sleeves that allow water to leak into the combustion chamber and maybe the oil when they contract when cold. This is why they have the vent coc#s on the cylinders to vent any water that accumulates in the combustion chamber so the engine doesn't hydro lock. Water won't seriously contaminate oil but glycol anti freeze will because it doesn't boil off as easily. Thus EMD's used water only for coolant and had to be drained if shut off in cold weather.
As I remember it, back in the day our Alco RS's and S's had dry sleeves and could use glycol anti freeze.
The key to starting a diesel in cold weather is keeping it warm with either electric heating or a fuel powered heater. Loggers in remote areas often use jumper hoses from their pickup heater hoses to warm up a very cold engine. Starting an ice cold diesel is an exercise in futility. Starter fluid only goes so far.
Current SD70Aces use (2) air starters. This system works well, as the EFI enables the engine to go to full fuel immediately...which enables quick light-off.
There was some talk of switching to alternator starting...don' know where that went.
Another reason for not using antifreeze in railroad diesels is that the cooling system is more likely to leak than in an automotive cooling system. Leaks can be a real problem since they can get into the crankcase oil. Water in the lube oil is a relatively minor problem but ethylene glycol can do a real number in breaking down lube oil.
Note on "The Flight of the Phoenix". While the original version of the movie was pretty good, the book was even better.
Overmoddo not recall the full details, but Jersey Central 'hid' one of their Baldwin double-enders from the eyes of the bean counters, using it for some shop purpose
If only it had been preserved! One of the most distinctive designs in US. diesel history. There weren't many double-ended diesels built for service here...
JuniathaOops - what sort of antifreeze is that ? Normally , it protects against corrosion .
Methanol increases corrosion, but it isn't used anymore. Otherwise, you are correct.
Hotstarts are now cheaper than maintaining antifreeze.
NorthWest :
>> IIRC, antifreeze decreases cooling efficiency, which is needed to maintain various emission standards (so, the switch to flared radiators). <<
That bit of a decrease of cooling intensity ( as I'd prefer to call it ) could easily been accounted for by proper dimensioning of cooling surfaces .
Btw - the same applied for 1970s US cars generally when run on the Autobahn with gas floored for any prolonged time . In Berlin I knew a guy who had substantially and thoroughly blown the 454 of his Corvette when chasing a Porsche on the way back from Frankfurt . Remedy to protect against such mishap was 1. to put a significantly larger radiator , 2. to install efficient oil cooler , higher flow oil pump and oil filter and 3. if possible to change for a larger capacity oil pan , 4. not to use next best quality of oil but the very best - last not least stay off boosting compression by special pistons and heads in post 1971 old V8 engines .
>> It also can corrode engine blocks quicker than regular water. <<
Oops - what sort of antifreeze is that ? Normally , it protects against corrosion .
= J =
NorthWest IIRC, a couple B&O's EM-1s were used as steam generators at chemical plants after retirement.
IIRC, a couple B&O's EM-1s were used as steam generators at chemical plants after retirement.
Why go so far, when the history of 1218 at Union Carbide is so close and well-known?
A quick memory of this sort of use includes E-4 Hudsons, at least one RF&P 4-8-4 that survived to 1966, and DMIR Yellowstones in ore-thawing service.
I would have to believe that the ICC/FRA boiler restrictions in that era would have required the same five-year full boiler overhaul mandated for working locomotives for any railroad-owned ex-locomotive 'power boiler' that was used for roundhouse service. Therefore keeping one of those things as your roundhouse heat would become -- shall we say, uneconomical? -- by the time the boiler certificate expired. (Not that I wouldn't love to have seen it happen!) What might be interesting would be if you derated the boiler to 'heating' pressure (not more than 15-30 psi?) and attempted to have it licensed accordingly... but you would still in all probability need to use light or waste-oil, or natural-gas, firing in it. [Note that Carbide got their 'A's listed as scrap so they could relicense them as stationary boilers, their South Charleston boiler engineers only having a stationary rating...]
I do not recall the full details, but Jersey Central 'hid' one of their Baldwin double-enders from the eyes of the bean counters, using it for some shop purpose (mighta been shop air, and perhaps shop heating) and I think actually building some sort of wall to conceal what it was. If someone knows the full story, mention it here...
They could even be adapted for the diesel squarehouse! Sadly, they were more valuable as scrap...
As long as diesels were hosted in steam round houses switching off motors was no problem at all :
* roundhouse was kept warm by the iron horses and so ..
* diesels were to shut up , sorry , were shut down ( if temporarily - none of you will be surprised I would have preferred *once and for all* )
* there was electricity to feed a 'flattened' electric circle of a diesel for starter engagement
* if there *still* was a problem , it was a warm place to dismantle sheet metal and dig into a motor to unroot what was wrong .
All in all , it would appear the advantages were so substantial I'm tempted to say a system of keeping steam locomotives hanging around in shed ( which didn't mean they had to run trains , actually ) was preferable enough to make total dieselization look like a total misunderstanding of the two traction modes . In an ideal form it seems , steam locomotives being less fuel efficient than diesels should have been kept more or less for roundhouse duties only - fully in steam all the time and with occasional outings for fuel , water , boiler and fire cleaning - while diesels then could without fear have been shut down in between taking care of train handling . A Pacific would then only stretch her legs in case of a diesel having become disabled , that would have been an agreeable burden , especially as after the trip she could be treated to a full service , oiling all around , thorough cleaning , making up small spots in lacquer coating to finish with a complete shine up . However , I'm afraid to keep Mallet locomotives for this duty , imho should have been considered an overmoded articulation of the idea , at least with roundhouses of less than eighty-eight stalls , in fact this type of arguably easier duty should not generally have asked for a double axle Delta truck neither ..
Although haphazardly realized back in days of transition , this turned into a great chance lost for the railroads to be so absolutely railroadish efficient in their inexplicably special own ways , it's deplorable really .
Juniatha
OvermodTraditionally it was NOT. That's a pot-load of antifreeze per locomotive!
IIRC, antifreeze decreases cooling efficiency, which is needed to maintain various emission standards (so, the switch to flared radiators). It also can corrode engine blocks quicker than regular water.
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