It took me a while to figure out why the Cummins QSK95 produced about the same HP as, I quote "already gigantic package (engine)".
The answer is that mechanical HP = 2 Pi X Torque X RPM / 33,000. 33,000 was an empircal formula devised by James Watt in that an average horse could pull 330 lbs, a distance of 100 feet in 1 minute. This involved an average horse, a 330 lb weight, rope, pulley and a 100 foot deep well!
So by transposing this formula Torque = HP X 33,000 / 2 Pi X RPM. Using the Cummins 4,000 HP, at 1,800 RPM and (for simplicity) the 4,000 HP at 900 RPM of a EMD 710, the 710 produces twice the torque than the Cummins engine to produce the same HP Or to put it another way, if the 710 could also run at 1,800 RPM, it would develop 8,000 HP,
Plus the Cummins motor with the 2/1 reduction gear will cost you less than a new Motor and also the Cummins motor will use Antifreeze so you can stop the Engine in teh winter with NO problems in the winter. Also the Cummins Motor is Smaller than a V16 645 motor and can use their Radiators so that is a huge plus and Fuel savings. Now think about this the V16 they have announced will be a Tier 4 engine 2 Years ahead of the EPA demands it. GE and EMD just NOW are getting Tier 3 into Production and no have to keep those going and come out with Tier 4 in less that 3 years. Cummins has been building the OTR equilivilent of Tie3r 4 now for 2 years and tested it for 3 years BEFORE they released it. They will have 8 Years of R&D that is REAL World usage with over 20-40K units in SERVICE. So they know what works and what is NOT GOING TO WORK.
Which little guys are you talking about?
Wabtec? They aren't little?
Most EMD after market support is provided by EMD and by GE. In fact GE owns the designs for the 645F block.
There are non-EMD retrofit kits for Marine and Loco 645s out there. you don't need to buy the EMD 1033 kit. The EM2000 computer isn't the only one being installed.
As for short lines, Last I checked, State and local governments have been doing their part to offset the cost of new locos. Look at lines like PHL or MET or Cal northern. They replaced almost all if not all their fleet. And how many of those regionals and bigger shortlines are parts of conglomerates. Do you think Watco, Rail AMerica or Genessee and Wyoming are incapable of the capital outlay?
And even given all that, they don't absolutely need to buy new locomotives. They can rebuild their 645 engines with the 1033 part for relatively low price and get years more service. EMd will gladly install ECOs which are less than the cost of a new loco as are all these gensets and small time builders.
YoHo1975 Also, I'd argue that the new regulations aren't harming railroad suppliers at all. I mean come on, that doesn't even make a lick of sense. This is a thread after all about a new engine supplier getting into the market. EMD and GE are perfectly happy to have a good excuse to increase their sales and all the new upstarts prove this. MAYBE the railroads are hurting from this. MAYBE, but of course the railroads are made up of people, both employees and stockholders who have an interest in air quality independent of the railroad.
Also, I'd argue that the new regulations aren't harming railroad suppliers at all. I mean come on, that doesn't even make a lick of sense. This is a thread after all about a new engine supplier getting into the market.
EMD and GE are perfectly happy to have a good excuse to increase their sales and all the new upstarts prove this.
MAYBE the railroads are hurting from this. MAYBE, but of course the railroads are made up of people, both employees and stockholders who have an interest in air quality independent of the railroad.
Are we all to play a part in maintaining clean air? Of course. But we live in a nation that runs somewhere between 200-250 million internal combustion engines. Of that around 20,000 are locomotives. Railroads are one of the few bright spots in the national commercial scene. This is no time to stymie their progress due to an imperious interest of political hubris.
Railroads converted from steam to diesel, not out of political mandate, but rather out of a quest for efficiency. The free market was allowed to dictate terms and as a result a cleaner more efficient form of rail transportation was realized. Political mandates breed inefficiency and unless cooler heads prevail then that is what we will be facing in the years to come.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
D.Carleton CSSHEGEWISCH: If you grew up in an industrial area like I did (mill dust everywhere, Superfund sites, etc.), you might have a greater appreciation for wanting to breathe clean air. Do we as a nation need to clean up our collective act? Of course the answer is "yes." But instead of following the railroad's lead they are being penalized. The railroads have cleaned up their act through the tried and true practice of increasing efficiency. At the height of the steam era there were over 60,000 locomotives in the United States. Today there are around 20,000 diesel locomotives... and they are moving more freight than in the steam era. To add to the irony Canada, which is a signatory of the Kyoto Protocol, does not have intrusive regulations on locomotives. The USA, a non-Kyoto participant, wastes precious resources penalizing the railroads and their suppliers. This single microcosm explains the problems inside the myopic beltway.
CSSHEGEWISCH: If you grew up in an industrial area like I did (mill dust everywhere, Superfund sites, etc.), you might have a greater appreciation for wanting to breathe clean air.
Do we as a nation need to clean up our collective act? Of course the answer is "yes." But instead of following the railroad's lead they are being penalized. The railroads have cleaned up their act through the tried and true practice of increasing efficiency. At the height of the steam era there were over 60,000 locomotives in the United States. Today there are around 20,000 diesel locomotives... and they are moving more freight than in the steam era.
To add to the irony Canada, which is a signatory of the Kyoto Protocol, does not have intrusive regulations on locomotives. The USA, a non-Kyoto participant, wastes precious resources penalizing the railroads and their suppliers. This single microcosm explains the problems inside the myopic beltway.
While this thread is getting very O.T (and into "soon to be locked" territory, I fear) I would point out that the Kyoto Protocols deal strictly with Carbon emissions while the EPA "Tier1/2/3/4" regs do not cover C02 at all but are concerned with Diesel Particulates, NOx, SOx and other pollutants..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
CSSHEGEWISCHIf you grew up in an industrial area like I did (mill dust everywhere, Superfund sites, etc.), you might have a greater appreciation for wanting to breathe clean air.
YoHo remember this what the EPA has Proposed as the New Arsenic Level for Water is LESS than what is found in a freaking Rainwater. Also what the EPA wants to do with CO2 will DESTROY all remaining industry and raise costs so high to do anything here in the states it is not FUNNY. The EPA on their OWN decreed that they can REGULATE CO2 Gas EMISSIONS a naturally Occuring GAS. BTW the Eruption of Mt St Helens in 1980 still put more Greenhouse Gasses in the air than all the Manmade stuff in the last 30 YEARS. So is the Goverment going to send a bill to Mother Nature next.
Also the EPA wants to regulate Dust from Farmers Fields if this is not a Agency that is getting out of control I do not know what one is Except maybe the TSA any Agency that will make a 95 year old woman with a Walker do a Strip Search beacuse she has a Defibulator in her chest is way OUT OF CONTROL. Or forces a girl to miss her flight because her Purse has an EMBOSSED picture of a gun on it.
Right, Canada has no Tiered Emissions requirements, so there really is no reason for GO to go with Cummins for the Tier 4 features. It seems more likely that as was said, someone is paying for this.
I also wouldn't count any EPA chickens before their hatched regardless of who wins next year
And finally, I've also seen my share of superfund cleanup sites and quite frankly wish the EPA could do more. Having unfettered Capitalism is less important to me than being able to breath comfortably and drink the water without health concerns.
And that's my soap box statement for the day.
Cummins does have a History of being in the RR industry already. Remember that Cummins was the Normal HEP gensets used by VIA and most other RR's on the F40PH-2 where they had a Seperate Motor Generator Set used in them. Also they are also used by NRE in the G21 series of Genset Locomotives now so they are out there and more on the way.
What is said about the old Small and Big cam and the Mechanical N14's was you could rebuild them in the Truckstop Parking lots if you had to. I know a few guys that did that. I had a 290 in one truck snap a rod off at TDC during Harvest season in 95. We ran it on 5 Clyinders for about a month since allt trucks that COULD run WERE RUNNING all the time. After harvest was over Jacked the cab up pulled #2 head off Pulleed #4 piston and replaced the rod ONLY on the motor then put it back together took 2 days that we could not afford during the harvest. I have a couple contacts at Cummins and got ahold of them why they got the Contract for GO Transit was simple. Cummins was offering a Tier 4 engine that DOES NOT NEED EGR to meet Tier 4 unlike EMD. See GO Transit has a Fleet of Busses with EGR on them and is already REPLACING THEM why the EGR VALVES ON THEM is the only reason. DPF's you can deal with with Regenarations they clean themselves out pretty much. Give DPF SCR and they are almost fool proof as they are finding out now in OTR circles.
BTW what setup do they run on the OTR trucks in EUROPE where their Emissions standards on trucks make ours look like a Alco with the Amount of Emmisions they allow out compared to THEIRS. Over in Europe they run SCR mated with DPF and have for over 20 YEARS.
GP40-2 D.Carleton: ... Is this the wisest use of taxpayer dollars? I highly doubt it. The "Government" and "wise use of taxpayer dollars" is an oxymoron. It will be very interesting to see what happens after the 2012 elections with all these current EPA mandates...
D.Carleton: ... Is this the wisest use of taxpayer dollars? I highly doubt it.
... Is this the wisest use of taxpayer dollars? I highly doubt it.
The "Government" and "wise use of taxpayer dollars" is an oxymoron.
It will be very interesting to see what happens after the 2012 elections with all these current EPA mandates...
after reading about Cummins' presentation at the Workboat Show I suspect That Cummins may be paying for this just to get their foot in the door.
GP40-2 It will be very interesting to see what happens after the 2012 elections with all these current EPA mandates...
If you grew up in an industrial area like I did (mill dust everywhere, Superfund sites, etc.), you might have a greater appreciation for wanting to breathe clean air.
Of course this is Canada, and the US EPA is irrelevant. Also Environment Canada has no laws governing emissions of locomotives.
Ed the first truck I had was a 96 freightliner with a little 3176 cat. Company liked cause it was outstanding on fuel mileage. 6.3 mpg on a heavy load in thr mountains with a head wind.Nice thing used to bobtailj from Atlanta to Augusta. At 56mph bobtail 14mpg. Truck is owned now by a guy pulling wood chips in SC. He still gets 6+mpg out of it. Truck was closing in on 2 million mileswhen i saw it last spring.
As to CARB I never had any complaints about idling my 08 Frtlnr. Had a 60 series Detroit.(I also have a clean idle certificate) . I found out this summer that all the states with anti pollution no idle restrictions are recognizing the CARB certification. Biggest problem I've run into is the EGR valve is only good for about 150,000 miles.So far Detroit has been replacing on the engine warranty. I'm trying not to think about the next time it needs replacing(at 600k) as the truck will be mine (I'm getting truck on an LP contract)and the engine warranty will have run out.
Thx IGN
Just remember this about the OTR industry for the RR's also. It was the Clinton ERA EPA that started the OTR side Emission reductions that happened to US back in 1998. Then throw in the CARB board in California and about anything is Possible if they decree it it WILL HAPPEN. Those WACKO's sorry they are WACKO's can cause more issues than the EPA. CARB isthe group that gives a DOG in a truck more rights to stay cool in 100 Degree heat than a man trying to sleep that has to DRIVE it. They also want bigger reductions in Emissions than the EPA going so far as to decree that APU's must have AFTERTREATMENS on them on the OTR side. Yep you heard me right a Diesel engine that burns less than a gallon of fuel in 8 hours they want a DPF and SCR and you can not hook it into your trucks exhaust system.
D.Carleton ... Is this the wisest use of taxpayer dollars? I highly doubt it.
Mr. Benton, I know you are right and I bear no ill will toward the trucking industry OTR or otherwise. But there are something like 600 million internal combustion engines in use around the world. Of that number less than 100,000 are in railroad use. Going after railroad engines is quite literally chasing sparrow flatulence in a windstorm. Is this the wisest use of taxpayer dollars? I highly doubt it.
Mr Carleton here are some Great Motors in the OTR side that were Killed off to Comply with the EPA MANDATES just in the LAST 6 YEARS. The Detroit 60 Series the Best MPG motor ever to come out of Detroit Diesel and the Most RELIABLE ever made. Here are the Fleets that ran teh HEll out of them Wal-Mart Scheinder Celeadon and Covanet and a whole Crapload of OTHERS out there. Then we have the 3400 Series of CAT Motors along with the C13 C10 lines since Cat LEFT the OTR industry. The only company not to kill off its design and make and IMPROVE it all the time was Cummins ISX and their ISM motor lines.
Cummins the ONLY thing they do is Diesel motors and they do them WELL close to 100 years so they are older than EMD and their PT injection system is older than the Winton 201 Model Diesel and without major changes except getting Electronic Controls.
YoHo1975Also, remember that the F59s have 12-710s not 16-710s. The odds that they would be replaced with a V16 4000HP unit are slim. If they get refurbed with Cummins it would probably be a V12.
I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. Sacrificing the tried and true EMD plant on the environmental altar is a waste of the taxpayers' dollar.
I have a buddy at Argonne labs he is helping design this system. EMD is trying EGR and what your seeing is the COOLER needed for the EGR system alone. He told me the EGR valves and they are having to run a total of 4 of them each one is the size of a 5 gallon Bucket and the max life they have gotten out of one in the TEST cell was 3 months. Most of them are lasting Less than 2 months in the TEST CELL. EMD guessed wrong on this one BIG time he is saying why they are the EPA cerification center for all Large Diesels and GE's SCR tier 4 model has run for 9 Months of Simulated Powder River Coal Service with NO Problems. EMD they can barely get 2 months before there is a Failure. That give you a clue on what he is seeing in the cells.
How do I know this guy I went to HS with him til he was accepted in IMSA and then he went to the University of Illinois on a Full Engineering Scholarship. He to this day has maintained that I should have gone to IMSA instead of him. I did not submit my app that year so he could go.
And how much if any of this OTR diesel experience, actually, applies to a medium speed 2 cycle gigantic Railroad Diesel?
From the sizing of the EGR system to the expected lifecycle. The odds that the OTR experience has statistically significant meaning is questionable.
Ed, I understand you have real life experience with these technologies in OTR trucking. I understood that the first time you wrote it. I don't need it repeated. And continuing to repeat it doesn't make it any more applicable.
You may be 100% right. EMD may fail, but I trust them and there 70+ years of experience with 2-cycle medium speed diesel engines in Railroad service. I trust Argonne to know what they're doing. I know engineers at Argonne. They aren't dumb.
And they may fail, the 645F block proves that. Though, I'd argue that was as much about rush to market as it was about Engineering failure.
Speaking of Argonne, Are we sure this is EGR? Did Argonne have any success with their Oxygen enrichment technology? Supposedly they retroed a 567B engine with it back in the 90s.
beaulieu edbenton: Here is the GE system fill up an extra tank with DEF at the cost of 2 bucks a gallon and refill it at a fuel stop. BTW the rr's are already USING DEF with their Diesel powered service trucks so they are used to getting it. They will know in 3 years how to handle it and what the price point will be. So decision time something that will point locomotives in the shop for expensive repairs or fill an extra tank on the unit to keep it on the road. Which way if your a Roundhouse worker are you going to want to go 2 days in the shop or hook a line up at the pump fill the DEF and release. Would I be correct in thinking that if you run out of DEF the diesel shuts down?
edbenton: Here is the GE system fill up an extra tank with DEF at the cost of 2 bucks a gallon and refill it at a fuel stop. BTW the rr's are already USING DEF with their Diesel powered service trucks so they are used to getting it. They will know in 3 years how to handle it and what the price point will be. So decision time something that will point locomotives in the shop for expensive repairs or fill an extra tank on the unit to keep it on the road. Which way if your a Roundhouse worker are you going to want to go 2 days in the shop or hook a line up at the pump fill the DEF and release.
Here is the GE system fill up an extra tank with DEF at the cost of 2 bucks a gallon and refill it at a fuel stop. BTW the rr's are already USING DEF with their Diesel powered service trucks so they are used to getting it. They will know in 3 years how to handle it and what the price point will be. So decision time something that will point locomotives in the shop for expensive repairs or fill an extra tank on the unit to keep it on the road. Which way if your a Roundhouse worker are you going to want to go 2 days in the shop or hook a line up at the pump fill the DEF and release.
Would I be correct in thinking that if you run out of DEF the diesel shuts down?
The part your talking about is the size of a popcan X2 and there is 2 required on a motor the size of one Cylinder of a 710 motor. On a 710 Series motor your looking at a part roughtly that is going to cost around 30-40 Grand EACH there will be one per bank of Cylinders at least more than likely 2 per bank so figure 4 EGR valves plus the piping needed for it. So every year your looking at replacing at least 240-320 Grand in parts alone plus the labor needed to replace them and then the Downtime on the units that have them. BTW they have found out EGRs in OTR trucks have to be replaced on a 6 month Schedule to be effective so double that source The Maintance Council. Also you are going to have Unschedualed failures with EGR and not with DEF SCR units. Worstcase with SCR you might get an unscheduled Regenaration compared to a EGR failure which can lead to a Catastophic Engine Failure. Yep you heard me right in 2005 right after the EPA mandated this crap on the OTR Cummins had a HUGE problem in the ISX with them scattering heads why EGR failure would case them to scatter apart. Best one I saw was here in my town. Driver for a small fleet put his crank on the ground his head thru the hood and 2 pistons well lets just say they tried to be satalites.
What happens is the Engine Derates to lower HP for a certain length of time then Shuts down. Only after 12 hours of being out of DEF will it shut off. Compare that to having EGR failure where your having Coolant turning your oil into mayo for 12 hours which one would you rather have a Blown motor or one where your still able ot move for 12 hours.
edbenton Here is the GE system fill up an extra tank with DEF at the cost of 2 bucks a gallon and refill it at a fuel stop. BTW the rr's are already USING DEF with their Diesel powered service trucks so they are used to getting it. They will know in 3 years how to handle it and what the price point will be. So decision time something that will point locomotives in the shop for expensive repairs or fill an extra tank on the unit to keep it on the road. Which way if your a Roundhouse worker are you going to want to go 2 days in the shop or hook a line up at the pump fill the DEF and release.
$1500, even $3000 on a $2million dollar locomotive is peanuts. And EMD has extended maintenance contracts with most of the railroads.
Also, consider that the EMD demonstrator is an older shorter SD60M as well and it kind of makes sense that the unit doesn't exactly look integrated.
On a Volvo D16 the Primary OTR motor used in Volvo heavy trucks there are 2 EGR valves in the moto. Each one costs WHOLESALE 1500 bucks each and the metal piping they are attached to is another 400 bucks each x2 and it takes 9 hours of labor to replace eache one. Labor rate at most shops is billed out now at 150 bucks an hour. These have to be replaced every year or you risk a major engine failure that if your under warrenty or have an extended warrenty they do not cover if it is NOT done. This would be roughly the EMD system.
beaulieu GE's test locomotive has a more compact packaging job. GE ES44DC Tier 4 test locomotive
GE's test locomotive has a more compact packaging job.
GE ES44DC Tier 4 test locomotive
Of course, GE are using urea injection, while EMD are using exhaust gas recirculation, so the "neatness" of the installation is not really comparable. I'm surprised that there is any external indication on the GE units.
While the EMD solution is more complex and more expensive in first cost, avoiding the need to carry and replenish the urea tanks will save money in the long run.
I understand that exhaust gas recirculation is not an option with the GE four stroke engine anyway, so urea injection is the only option for them. I'd guess that EMD are very keen for EGR to be a success since it would give them a technical and cost advantage, something they haven't had for some time.
M636C
The tier 4 Demostrator had to be to show that the 710 can make it with Minumal Mods and be Tier 4 Complaiant. I do not call having to add another Radiator over the Engine room a Minimal MOD to a Prime mover.
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