Are these two-cycle or four-cycle?
Everything Cummins makes is 4 stroke.
It's a 4 stroke high speed. I had not heard it was Tier 4. In fact the press release says its "ready to meet" tier 4 and it will use SCR. Not that it does these things now.
Speculation on Loconotes is that the ALCX SD90s are going to get this engine.
I still want to know what alternator is going to be mated with these. Are they going to step down to mount an AR10?
This is were CAT and the Other OTR compaines are going to have a HUGE advantage breaking into the RR side. Why you are going to ask Tier 4 is what we have been at for 3 Years already we know WTH works have had 4 years of Testing to GET IT TO WORK and also have the Mechanics trained as to what can and will go wrong at the Dealerships so tech support WILL BE READY.
BTW anyone that works in the roundhouse or shops have FUN with ULSD when it hits the RR's that stuff will make you almost wish for the days of a 567 A block with a Water jacket leak into the Oil pan. Trucking company around here went thru 52 Injectors on there 10 2003 KW's with CAT C-13's before they got them sorted out. Were seizing up faster than ALCOs Smoke.
Just my opinion but I highly doubt they will use a speed reducing gearbox to allow for the medium speed alternator.
According to the news piece: "Cummins officials said Toronto's GO Transit is the first QSK95 customer in North America. It will repower 11 locomotives with the motor in 2014." The oldest MP40s will be six years old in 2014. Someone really wants to remove the tried-and-true EMD 710 plant for a high-speed diesel? Have they really thought this through?
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Apparently they have. I personally would like to see how the new Cummins engine would do inside of a locomotive.
Presumably they aren't redoing the MP40s, but the older units.
Found some information on this linked site:
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/article/54715--cummins-plans-building-giant-engine-in-s-indiana
The Columbus-based company said it has invested about $100 million as 150 engineers worked for three years to design what it claims is the most powerful engine of its type.
"We put all of our learning into developing this engine," Linebarger said.
In 16- or 20-cylinder versions, the QSK line of engines will run on diesel or natural gas and meet environmental rules in every country, The Indianapolis Star reported. The new engines are expected to sell for about $500,000 in a product line expected to help boost the company's revenues from $13 billion this year to $30 billion by 2015.
The QSK engines weighing about 27,000 pounds are "designed with the power and durability to surpass all other high-speed engines," said Mark Levett, vice president and general manager of Cummins' high-horsepower business group..."
This link shows a video w/ exploded views of the OSK95 engines family [ and the video lists one of these engines at 5,000Hp, QSK120]:
http://cumminsengines.com/every/misc/Technology/off_hwy_power_evolution.page%3F.page
YoHo1975 It's a 4 stroke high speed. I had not heard it was Tier 4. In fact the press release says its "ready to meet" tier 4 and it will use SCR. Not that it does these things now. Speculation on Loconotes is that the ALCX SD90s are going to get this engine. I still want to know what alternator is going to be mated with these. Are they going to step down to mount an AR10?
I presume you mean the AR20 not the AR10 which hasn't been built in awhile, though remanufactured versions are still available.
D.Carleton Just my opinion but I highly doubt they will use a speed reducing gearbox to allow for the medium speed alternator. According to the news piece: "Cummins officials said Toronto's GO Transit is the first QSK95 customer in North America. It will repower 11 locomotives with the motor in 2014." The oldest MP40s will be six years old in 2014. Someone really wants to remove the tried-and-true EMD 710 plant for a high-speed diesel? Have they really thought this through?
They still have some F59PH locomotives on their roster, presumeably these are what will be rebuilt. I want to see how long until the first overhaul, as with 50% higher RPMs than an EMD diesel the pistons will have traveled 50% farther in a given amount of time. Unless they have some magic they will incur 50% more wear. Also they talk about higher firing pressures which leads to higher engine stress. Soo Line tried out Cat powered locomotives in some numbers, as did BN, both backed away at the time of the first overhauls which were needed sooner than an EMD GP38-2 in the same service.
beaulieu D.Carleton: Just my opinion but I highly doubt they will use a speed reducing gearbox to allow for the medium speed alternator. According to the news piece: "Cummins officials said Toronto's GO Transit is the first QSK95 customer in North America. It will repower 11 locomotives with the motor in 2014." The oldest MP40s will be six years old in 2014. Someone really wants to remove the tried-and-true EMD 710 plant for a high-speed diesel? Have they really thought this through? They still have some F59PH locomotives on their roster, presumeably these are what will be rebuilt. I want to see how long until the first overhaul, as with 50% higher RPMs than an EMD diesel the pistons will have traveled 50% farther in a given amount of time. Unless they have some magic they will incur 50% more wear. Also they talk about higher firing pressures which leads to higher engine stress. Soo Line tried out Cat powered locomotives in some numbers, as did BN, both backed away at the time of the first overhauls which were needed sooner than an EMD GP38-2 in the same service.
D.Carleton: Just my opinion but I highly doubt they will use a speed reducing gearbox to allow for the medium speed alternator. According to the news piece: "Cummins officials said Toronto's GO Transit is the first QSK95 customer in North America. It will repower 11 locomotives with the motor in 2014." The oldest MP40s will be six years old in 2014. Someone really wants to remove the tried-and-true EMD 710 plant for a high-speed diesel? Have they really thought this through?
Furthermore, it does not make business sense to drop a 4000 HP plant into a 3000 HP locomotive. To make it work would require rebuilding/augmenting every other part of the locomotive: electrical, cooling, et.al. When California put out bids for dropping SD6o prime movers into four former Amtrak F40s no one took them up. By the time you are done upgrading all that needs upgrading you might as well buy a new locomotive.
Perhaps an opening for one of the smaller North American builders such as Brookville or NRE to enter the mainline freight locomotive market, perhaps with a big,international partner like Bombardier or Alstom for AC traction technology?
It'll be tough to take on GE and Cat/Progress/EMD but the new locomotive market is predicted to pick up as older non-Tier complant units are retired en masse...
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D.Carleton Furthermore, it does not make business sense to drop a 4000 HP plant into a 3000 HP locomotive. To make it work would require rebuilding/augmenting every other part of the locomotive: electrical, cooling, et.al. When California put out bids for dropping SD6o prime movers into four former Amtrak F40s no one took them up. By the time you are done upgrading all that needs upgrading you might as well buy a new locomotive.
Putting them in the MP40s won't be simple either, replace cooling system and the Alternator in addition to the diesel engine.
As someone else on another forum put it. The Class Is do not want Urea injection, EMD has told the railroads they will be able to meet Tier 4 standards without SCR and Urea. This is a make or break point. If Cummins knows they need SCR to make Tier 4, then the Class Is won't touch them, period. GE was a little less positive than EMD, but they think they can. If GE can't do it and EMD can it will knock GE out of the market like turning off a switch. It is "Do or Die".
beaulieuPutting them in the MP40s won't be simple either, replace cooling system and the Alternator in addition to the diesel engine.
EMD wasn't really a partner. The MP36s used 645F blocks supplied by GE. Only the MP40s use new EMD made blocks.
Also, remember that the F59s have 12-710s not 16-710s. The odds that they would be replaced with a V16 4000HP unit are slim. If they get refurbed with Cummins it would probably be a V12.
More likely is a 1033 part or an ECO rebuild.
Maybe they can resolve the issue by NREC building a demonstrator to the AASHTO Amtrak 125 mph passenger locomotive spec using the QSK 95 engine
The Railway Age article seems to have a little more technical detail:
http://www.railwayage.com/breaking-news/cummins-the-world-s-most-powerful-high-speed-diesel-3683.html
Excerpts:
"The QSK95 will provide an exceptionally long life-to-overhaul, capable of achieving 1.7 million gallons and above of fuel consumed before overhaul, with the significant advantage of no mid-life intervention required.”
Is this furlongs-per-fortnight or some useful spec?
"Service intervals are a minimum 500 hours, with the option of much-extended oil change intervals available using the ELIMINATOR™ oil purification system, mounted on the engine."
Comments? TIA!
I agree that if they want to be serious about the railroad market, they need to get a couple of demonstrators built and running on some predictable cyclic route (PR coal?).
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I just want to see a locomotive with the giant "C" decal in the window. I think that's required by law for anyone with a cummins...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
CAT tried and FAILED to get a Diesel engine certifed to meet the OTR emmisons standards for 2010 without SCR and then Left the OTR side of the Business. The Tier 4 Emissions Standards are exactly the same as what the OTR side had to meet for 2010. Hate to tell the Roundhouse boys but there is no way to meet Tier 4 without SCR and DPF after treatments. EGR helps but it is not a cure all for everything. When the 2004 standards came out the OTR side tried EGR and we hated it the Valves SUCK they carbon up fail and cause all sorts of issues in the motors. Ask anyone that runs a Volvo motor ISX or Detroit with one. Then in 2008 we got the lovely DPF along with EGR's and boy those are FUN ended up with Fires smoke during regens that will make an ALCO look clean burning that was the OTR side Tier 3.
Now we are at Tier 4 and my oh my are we having FUN we added SCR with DEF to the mix. about every 3 hours the computer in the engine shoots a shot of Urea into the DPF and burns it clean. However you runn the Urea tank empty your engine DERATES and your stranded on the side of the road. Have FUN with Tier 3 and 4. Just be aware that CARB and the EPA do not PLAY around at all and will be all over everyone like a tagger goes after a Tri-level autorack in LA. The Class 1's better start hiring on road Maintance crews. They are going to be needing them.
Cummins is Using all the Experiance that they gained in the OTR side to avoid EGR in this engine. See EMD and GE are like well we can run EGR to meet Tier 4 with no Probhlems well here is the kicker. All 2012 ISX motors are now EGR free and running SCR and DPF only and the drivers I have talked to have gained 2 MPG and reliablity up the WAZOO that the old models DID NOT HAVE. All by losing the EGR system. See EGR is not designed to work well on a diesel motor that is Turbo or Supercharged they are a Vacucum based system and can not handle a Postive Pressure system. Just because something looks great in a test cell at Argentine National Labs under Perfect Condtions with Filtered air and such does not mean a Crap when all hell is breaking loose on the tracks with Oil leaks bad Fuel Wrong Fuel dirty Filters and stuff like that. I have seen stuff happen on the road that you go HOW IN THE HELL did that happen and yet the motor was still running.
I should point out that commuter train service today is not as demanding on a diesel locomotive as Class I freight service. Shure there is a constant cycle of power and braking and power and braking, but most of the locomotives see use only four of five hours during the day, becuase the number of trains running during the two hour morning and evening rush periods is far greater than either midday or night. Freight locomitves run as close to 24 hours a day as schedules and service permit. So these new Caterpiller high speed four-stroke engines can get plenty of loving care that a freight diesel doesn't get.
If freight railroads could run the commuter services and be paid a fair price to do so, equpment utilization would improve. I recall as in winter 1952-1953 the regular operation of Boston and Maine GP-7's (usually 1567 or 1568) north of the Boston - Portsmouth passenger train and then return to Sommerville yard on the dailiy southbound freight, same engine crew.
Testing in a lab to find out if it works is one thing as stated above, then if it works they take it out on the road first with a test train and then in full service to see how it holds up in the real workd. Lets just wait and see what hppens in the next few years as things play out.
If I recall correctly, SP's Train Masters used to work local freights on weekends when suburban schedules were less frequent than weekdays. That practice faded away in later years. In theory, the NJDOT/EL U34CH's were also to be available for weekend freight service, but that didn't occur. The problem is in making sure that the power is returned in time for the Monday morning rush.
Everyone remembers howwell teh 265H series worked in the Testcell and how EMD was saying this is going to be the Death of the 710 series. Well what happened to it when released into real world service it fell on its face faster than an Alco overfuels and Smokes when going to Notch 8 from Idle.
On the OTR side we had CAT saying Acert was going to be FIne Cummins said EGR was great Detroit and Volvo said the same thing about EGR tech in 2004 when it was forced on us. Well when it hit the Roads in Regular service it was a bigger failure than the Titanics Maiden Voyage. The only thing that was worse was when they had to add DPF without SCR onto them 3 years later when they were still trying to get EGR sorted out. Things went from bad to Worse. Now that they can get RID of all the EGR valves and just run DPF with SCR drivers are getting happy again so they have to add Synthetic hog pee to a tank every time they fuel at least they are getting 7-8 MPG again their Fuel costs are LOWER on a Mileage basis their engines are more reilable and they are not going into the shop when valve fails for a 3K bending over.
According to a Cummins news release in Railway Gazette they won't have a prototype ready until 2013 with limited production starting in 2014 with full production starting in 2015 when they have to be tier 4 anyway.
Trust me they say there is no Prototype ready what they mean is NO Production Prototype. They all ready have Hand built Prototypes UP and Running. They already have V4 V8 models running hard. They are getting the tooling ready so when they get ready for Production they will not be having issues like EMD did with the 265H model or CAT did with one of their Recent Models. See Cummins is betting alot on this and will not get caught with their Pants around their Ankles. They will have a motor that is ready to go Day one and will be Reliable from day one.
I predict that 2013 and 2014 will be boom years for locomotive production, while 2015 will be a bust as the Class Is adopt a wait and see attitude towards Tier 4 locomotives.
Unless Cummins is willing to limit themselves to a niche market or Europe, they are going to have to buy one of the smaller US builders and invest serious money. No US builder, besides GE and EMD, have significant production capabilities. I think both GE and EMD/Cat expect the boom and bust that I predict and are quickly ramping up production capabilities in anticipation. GE with facilities in Erie and Fort Worth, EMD/Cat with primary facilities in London and Muncie, plus various support locations.
There have been Multip[le Failures in the OTR side that the Test cell said it would work Great. Lets see here Detroit had their Series 50 in the late 90's thing blew heads faster than a Dozen Free doughnuts will be gone at a Weight watchers Convention. Then you have CAT's C10 sries was Way to Small yet they kept on Pushing it. They found a Niche for it in Hot Shots however it was designed for Class 8 rigs. Then we have Cummins ISM the replacement for the M11 was a great Medium duty but way to light in power in Class 8 OTR. However the Biggest failure in OTR engines ever was the CAT 3176 unless you needed to haul super heavy loads you never wanted to use that POS. It was called the throw away Kitty Cat. It was cheaper to Throw it away swap out a reman than rebuild the freaking thing when it came time for a overhaul.
The Cranks were weak the Engine brake forget it would not hold back an empty trailer max hP was 320HP. You wanted a seet of pedals in the cab to give it a boost going UP hill as you might actually beat the motor up hill pulling 80K by using Pedals.
Seems EMD is ready for field testing, Ed. Can Cummins say that? Three years of testing available.
First EMD 710G Field Test Locomotive Tier 4
Ugly, maybe fair the middle hood bulge into the radiators, it might help.
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