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BNSF retiring BN SD70MACs?

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Posted by YoHo1975 on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 8:41 PM

 Again, this is a Train board, so I'm not sure who all here has expertise in those types of diesels. I AM however pretty sure that an EMD 16-710G3C-T2 gets better fuel consumption numbers than a 16-710G3B or older.

 Perhaps this is why CAT has had mixed results in the locomotive market.

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Posted by edbenton on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 8:33 PM

I drove in the Late 90's Back then we had OTR rigs that would get 9-10 MPG as a normal MILEAGE.  I drove a 98 Pete 379 with a 475 CAT that would get 7 MPG at 75 MPH.  Yet now a Cat motor if your LUCKY will only get 5 MPG in the same configuration.  What Changed 2 things CARB and the EPA decided that they wanted to SAVE the earth and reduce emisions by 40% out the tailpipes.  So CAT redid the Engines came out with ACERT Cummins and Detroit came out with EGR tech and DPF tech on all of the OTR engines in 07.  However in 04 it was Just EGR and Acert.  Now tell me this how can an engine that is burning 50-75% more Fuel be emitting LESS NOX and CO2 than the one it is supposed to replace. 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 6:04 PM

YoHo1975
As for the emissions requirements for trucks... I'm sorry, but as a California resident for 6 years I was acutely aware that California's central Valley now boasts some of the worst air quality in the entire country. I'm not just talking Carbon Dioxide issues, I'm talking Smog, particulate matter, NOx. So, while I sympathize with truckers, I myself was recently unemployed, I wish it on nobody, I still agree with the state of California and I don't appreciate the name calling

Have to agree. In the mid to late 1960s a few people who flew into Newark, Pittsburgh, Birmingham, and Chicago when the wind was from the east would have nose bleeds start before they even got to the gate. Used to be when passing thru 7000ft a person could see a red haze from all the polution. Industries fought it tooth and nail. Another strange effect was thru the 1960s people in the Pittsburgh area were at least 6 - 9 inches shorter than others not in that area.

Smog never had much effect on me but guess I just picked the correct parents. But other people I knew--------------????????!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 3:47 PM

Holy smokes!  If a '92 truck gets 5.5 MPG and an 0-10 gets 7 MPG, does this mean I can trade in my 1996 Taurus LX that gets 30 MPG on the open road with a comparable car in size, comfort, and power that gets 38 MPG?

I once read a trucking magazine that as a trucker you can actually get information from the manufacturer giving you a good idea of what kind of fuel mileage you will get from a truck in the kind of route you drive.  Good luck even getting that information to make informed comparisons for an automobile.

I know the stakes (i.e. the out-of-pocket expenses) are much higher in trucking and perhaps accounts for why the truck makers will address fuel economy questions better than auto makers. 

But it would be really nice if one could get an even ballpark idea of what kind of gas mileage you could get from a new car in service.  It is not that the EPA numbers are "bogus", that the EPA test is different from the kind of driving you might do, I have a feeling that the EPA numbers are "gamed" in some ways.  If anyone is curious, I can point out anomolies on the EPA's own Web site, showing the raw "Test Car List Data" fuel economy numbers where they also show drag numbers used for the tests and point out some suspect values. 

edbenton

The 9400-9600's were the First ones out so they came out in what 1991-92 or so IIRC.  So they have 20 years on them probally 2 2.5 Million miles of Hard pulling in mostly coal service.  Lets see what we would be looking at to rebuild them to current standards.  New Prime movers new Wiring and Control system.  Had desktop controls which CREW HATE.  Also Do not meet EPA Emissions so need Upgraded there.  Looking at 1.5-1.8 Million PER.  Can get a new one for just over 2.2 million that is more Fuel Efficent and the frame is 20 years NEWER.  Lets see here from a OTR look.  I am driving a 92 9700 Cabover that has a 400 Cat gets 5.5 MPG and breaksdown all the time anymore.  Now I can trade it in get a 2010 Model Prostar that gets 7 MPG warrenty and also reliable.  How would you go.

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?

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Posted by YoHo1975 on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 3:37 PM
First of all, the Railroads both are signatories on the agreement for locomotives. So they can't complain. Secondly, the requirements for Locomotives are different. BNSF and UP must have a fleet wide average emissions standard equivalent to Tier 2. The EPA rule 40 CFR Part 1033 upgrade requirements for Tier 0 and Tier 1 are almost as stringent as Tier 2. So in effect, performing that upgrade on the 710 engines would bring the fleet into compliance at a much lower cost. As for the emissions requirements for trucks... I'm sorry, but as a California resident for 6 years I was acutely aware that California's central Valley now boasts some of the worst air quality in the entire country. I'm not just talking Carbon Dioxide issues, I'm talking Smog, particulate matter, NOx. So, while I sympathize with truckers, I myself was recently unemployed, I wish it on nobody, I still agree with the state of California and I don't appreciate the name calling. Those laws aren't communism, they protect the interests of far more people than they hurt. And of course, How much of that produce used to travel by train that was "stolen" by trucks. ;)
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Posted by edbenton on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 2:37 PM

See there is a slight Issue there is a groiup in Californa called CARB the Californa Air Resouce Board that if your going to Overhaul a locomotive you have to Bring it up to Current Teir 2 Standards by 2012 or it can not be RUN IN CALIFORNA AT ALL.  So are you going to have a set of Engines for COMMIEFORNIA AND ONE FOR THE REST OF THE NATION.  Or are you going to bite the bullet and just bring them up to standards.  That is were the OTR Trucking Industry is facing right now with Reefer Units anything older than a 2002 is Now ILLEGAL for Cali so we have a choice 70-90K for a New trailer and Unit or 40K for Upgrade on the one we are pulling now. 

 BTW try getting a SBA loan for a Equipment upgrade in this Economy there is NO CREDIT and if we get caught in Cali it is a 3K fine.  Nice huh yet we have no choice.  Yet 90% of all fresh Veggies are coming OUT OF CALIFORNIA so what do we do. run an illegal trailer and hope we do not get stopped for a reefer unit check by a state NEEDING 55BILLION to plug a hole in its BUDGET or try to afford 40-90K to run there Legal.

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Posted by YoHo1975 on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 12:55 PM
Does rebuilding typically replace the prime mover? That seems unlikely. I'd assume they just "bore and stroke" it and replace wearable parts. EMD has a part to upgrade 645s and 710s to meet EPA rule 40 CFR Part 1033. I don't have a price for that upgrade, but it is orders of magnitude less than the cost of a new unit. They aren't even in the same ballpark. The only reason I can see for BNSF not to rebuild them is fuel consumption issues where they'd rather just get GEVOs and ACes. So I take it that BNSF owns the MACs outright? They aren't leased? That would have to be the case if they in turn are leasing them to roads in Mexico.
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Posted by CAZEPHYR on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 11:44 AM

edbenton

The 9400-9600's were the First ones out so they came out in what 1991-92 or so IIRC.  So they have 20 years on them probally 2 2.5 Million miles of Hard pulling in mostly coal service.  Lets see what we would be looking at to rebuild them to current standards.  New Prime movers new Wiring and Control system.  Had desktop controls which CREW HATE.  Also Do not meet EPA Emissions so need Upgraded there.  Looking at 1.5-1.8 Million PER.  Can get a new one for just over 2.2 million that is more Fuel Efficent and the frame is 20 years NEWER.  Lets see here from a OTR look.  I am driving a 92 9700 Cabover that has a 400 Cat gets 5.5 MPG and breaksdown all the time anymore.  Now I can trade it in get a 2010 Model Prostar that gets 7 MPG warrenty and also reliable.  How would you go.

 The first ones were arrived in November 1993 and the last of the BN name units wee in July of 1995.  They probably have many miles as you said and are in need of rebuilding.

CZ

 

Thanks to unoffical EMD listing

 

926335 11.93 to ?.94 SD70MAC BN 9400-9474 75 .
936445 08.94 to 03.95 SD70MAC BN 9475-9499, 9504-9541 63 .
946555 11.94 to 01.95 SD70MAC BN 9542-9571 30 .
946565 03.95 to 01.96 SD70MAC BN 9572-9712 141 .
946585 06.95, 07.95 SD70MAC BN 9713-9716 4

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Posted by edbenton on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 10:18 AM

The 9400-9600's were the First ones out so they came out in what 1991-92 or so IIRC.  So they have 20 years on them probally 2 2.5 Million miles of Hard pulling in mostly coal service.  Lets see what we would be looking at to rebuild them to current standards.  New Prime movers new Wiring and Control system.  Had desktop controls which CREW HATE.  Also Do not meet EPA Emissions so need Upgraded there.  Looking at 1.5-1.8 Million PER.  Can get a new one for just over 2.2 million that is more Fuel Efficent and the frame is 20 years NEWER.  Lets see here from a OTR look.  I am driving a 92 9700 Cabover that has a 400 Cat gets 5.5 MPG and breaksdown all the time anymore.  Now I can trade it in get a 2010 Model Prostar that gets 7 MPG warrenty and also reliable.  How would you go.

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Posted by beaulieu on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 10:16 AM
What I am hearing is that they are leasing them to Ferromex, they would rather have them making money for Warren rather than storing them.
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Posted by fafnir242 on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 9:20 AM
I'm sure BNSF has a perfectly good reason for doing so (if this is actually the case).  None of us really know what the costs to upgrade a 70MAC are as opposed to just buying more ACes or something of the like (unless some one does, then speak now or forever hold your peace :P).  If this is more than just a rumor, it will really be a shame.  The 70MAC is probably one of my favorite locomotives, right up there with the SD60M and the E8.
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Posted by YoHo1975 on Tuesday, May 4, 2010 2:07 PM
I wonder why they are doing this? Those are EPA upgradeable units. Maybe they just think it's better to get new units.
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BNSF retiring BN SD70MACs?
Posted by Lyon_Wonder on Tuesday, May 4, 2010 1:53 PM

Rumor has it is BNSF’s going to retire BN 9600-series SD70MACs and some of these will be going to Mexico.  I wonder which railroad south of the border they’re going too?  Ferromex, Ferrosur, KCS-M?  The SD70MACs would look nice in KCS’s Belle!  If BNSF’s going to take most if not all of its former BN 9400-9600 series off lease, maybe US regionals MRL, IAIS, and the Indiana Railroad should get some of these SD70MACs too and compliment their existing rosters of AC-power. 

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