zugmannAnd actually, running from Scranton to Nicholson is probably the only shot at real mainline running you may be able to accomplish in the foreseeable future. So I wouldn't dismiss it so.
Most of what I see excursion steam doing today is 40mph limited, and no little part of it involves backing half the way down a line with a couple of runbys at strategic locations. A T1 can handle anything, say, a Nickel Plate Berk can in that sort of service, and I hear no complaints that a fast-freight engine of the capability of an AMC Berk is being 'wasted' when it runs down a few miles of track out 'n back from Youngstown.
OvermodThe first, of course, is who cares if there is a place to 'run' it. Even as little more than a photo supermodel the thing has a future, and it can easily be run at high cyclic on its test rig (and at least theoretically up to determinable maximum, one of the engineering concerns not solved by multiphysics simulation)
That's how you end up with an engine that never leaves the shed. Heck, might as well just toss a smoke generator in the stack of the K4s at Strasburg and call it a day.
And actually, running from Scranton to Nicholson is probably the only shot at real mainline running you may be able to accomplish in the foreseeable future. So I wouldn't dismiss it so.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Million+ dollar question - where are you going to run one?
Actually a 20+ million dollar question. With a variety of answers.
The first, of course, is who cares if there is a place to 'run' it. Even as little more than a photo supermodel the thing has a future, and it can easily be run at high cyclic on its test rig (and at least theoretically up to determinable maximum, one of the engineering concerns not solved by multiphysics simulation)
The second is that building effective trust, something largely absent from 'heritage steam' with a very few exceptions (Kelly Lynch and Fort Wayne being one) will have a likely effect on potential operation that cannot be predicted now. That engine when built will have effective high-and low-speed slipping, limited dynamic augment even at relatively high speed, at least comparable lateral shock force than even a radial-trucked diesel up to 70mph, and limited loss of treated-water chemicals, lube oil, etc. All support is modular and mobile, including raising the engine or tender for on-carriage transport in the field within a few minutes. And unlike most other operable reciprocating engines it will be fully PTC compliant and easily operable in the flow of most prospective traffic. Once all this has been substantiated many of the formal restrictions and strict policies concerning steam operations may no longer be as rigidly applied as at present.
Associated with this are the unpredictable concerns of ownership in the future where the engine is actually completed. There are currently several places that have granted 5550 operating rights, but of course there is (and should be) no reliance upon those permissions in either getting the engine built or predicating its maintenance or care on actual excursions or tourist operations there.
Third, as noted before, any actual high-speed running will occur at TTC in Pueblo, and all the necessary arrangements for this and requirements for it are well understood and confirmed. As I do not expect even a 'perfected' T1 to reach 165mph in either a big left turn or a right one, this really poses no limitation.
i would also add this: when an actress does promotional tours or appearances no one expects a full-dress performance of a full-length script in full-dress performance every time. The prospective use of the engine is far different from totin' a bunch of PRR fanbois out and back from Scranton to Nicholson while all the seats can be filled... although I suspect with a T1 on the consist the seats would be filled and not just with the dying ranks of the 'faithful'.
SD70Dude Maybe we could interest Amtrak in leasing it, at a very favourable rate. They could use it to suck up to the current administration, by bringing coal back to the railroad!
Maybe we could interest Amtrak in leasing it, at a very favourable rate. They could use it to suck up to the current administration, by bringing coal back to the railroad!
You know, there was a time when Amtrack would have been amenible to that suggestion. I think it was in the late 80's they let two steamers out of the Strasburg Railroad go for a romp on the mainline between Strasburg and Harrisburg. The two vintage Pennsy locomotives, a 4-4-2 and a 4-4-0, performed splendidly as well.
Those days are gone, for the time being anyway.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
OvermodYes, whether you're a PRR fanboi or not, a running K4 is that important.
Million+ dolalr question - where are you going to run one?
Those engines need to be on a mainline flat out - not bumping and plodding along at 15mph on the Crooked & Weedy Scenic Rail-road.
timzDoubt that any K4 was ever saturated.
At this point I have no idea about who actually owns which K4 or indeed under what auspices the ongoing work on 1361 is now (at this late date post-Levin and Moorman) going on. (And I made the mistake of trying to fact-check it by going down a couple of top pages in Google, too!) Were I in better health I would know, because I would be there volunteering. Yes, whether you're a PRR fanboi or not, a running K4 is that important.
Frankly restoring 3001 to operation 'ought' to be a higher priority than restoring any historical PRR engine, including 460 which deserves to be runnable. And the people interested in and fascinated by 5550 are almost entirely not PRR railfans -- a community that couldn't even get a 205psi engine to stay running, let alone organize around either a practical derating or a practical new boiler structure. On a budget over one-third that for a whole new T1 from scratch, to boot.
I do sympathize with the idea that all the effort go into one explicitly PRR project at a time -- whatever it is. To be honest that's kinda happening by default. I don't expect anything to actually happen with either G5s for years ... decades, probably ... although there are places on the Island where there's enough interest to pay a helpfully-fully-restored-with-OPM example a place to eventually run. The K4 is an icon, like UP 4014, and just to have it serviceable is worth the work even if, like that C&O 2-6-6-2, it actually gets restored no better than the SS United States.
5550 on the other hand is far less a PRR project than a wicked cool one, and PRR 'nostalgia' is largely related to rather unfortunate expedience and quite a bit of mistakes and locomotive mishandling. To this day I hear whining about why money is being 'wasted' on a 'failure'. That's cute ... they're welcome to spend their money on whatever they prefer, including actual PRR priority work. But I'll bet T1 people have far more fun.
Flintlock76 zugmann Being ganged up on.. Aw, we love 'ya Zug! Just having a little fun!
zugmann Being ganged up on..
Being ganged up on..
Aw, we love 'ya Zug! Just having a little fun!
They have Gritty. They are more than capable of defending themselves.
SD70DudeIn some ways they are similar to Apple fanbois....
I was thinking more like a religion with a lot of different sects!
zugmann Honstly - we have 2.5 PRR engines trying to get built right now: the K4s, the T1, and the LIRR G5s (that's the .5). Sometimes I wished we could just get all the PRR steam fans behind one and get it done. But herding PRR steam fans is not an easy challenge.
Honstly - we have 2.5 PRR engines trying to get built right now: the K4s, the T1, and the LIRR G5s (that's the .5). Sometimes I wished we could just get all the PRR steam fans behind one and get it done. But herding PRR steam fans is not an easy challenge.
In some ways they are similar to Apple fanbois....
OvermodKeep in mind that 3750, the 'historic fabric' K4, is not at the museum 'across the street from Strasburg' but in the RailROADERS Memorial Museum of Pennsylvania, in Altoona
That's odd, I just checked the website of the RR Museum of PA in Strasburg, (Ronks actually) and they're showing 3750 as part of the collection.
Somebody move it recently?
To my knowledge 1361's the K4s in Altoona.
OvermodKeep in mind that 3750, the 'historic fabric' K4, is not at the museum 'across the street from Strasburg' but in the RailROADERS Memorial Museum of Pennsylvania, in Altoona (where, contrary to BS you might read, the locomotive was built in 1920). This is the locomotive that was famously 'substituted' for rotted-out 1737 for the sentimentalists in Northumberland at the time... and subsequently, somewhat famously, had her 'true identity' restored for Truth In Preservation.
I think we are getting our K's mixed up. 3750 is at the state museum in Strasburg. 1361 is in pieces in altoona/EBT/Steamtown/Canterlot/or wherever.
The PHMC (PA historical and Museum Commission) is barely funded. They are going to have enough trouble keeping their sites open (esp this year), nevermind getting an engine running, and they won't do the latter becuase of the whole "destruction of historic fabric" thing.
And I'm not saying I think it's a good or bad policy - just different. Strasburg RR acrosst he street has their running steam locmotives, but the ones that aren't running/waiting restoration some year are barely recognizable heaps of metal at this point. Now that won't stop them from making them good as new if the time and money comes, but it's a different philosophy.
Overmodthe history of both classes included saturated operation
Keep in mind that 3750, the 'historic fabric' K4, is not at the museum 'across the street from Strasburg' but in the RailROADERS Memorial Museum of Pennsylvania, in Altoona (where, contrary to BS you might read, the locomotive was built in 1920). This is the locomotive that was famously 'substituted' for rotted-out 1737 for the sentimentalists in Northumberland at the time... and subsequently, somewhat famously, had her 'true identity' restored for Truth In Preservation.
It is that museum's attitudes and policies that would keep 'the other K4' from being tinkered with for safe/lowest true cost operation.
Actually running any of the locomotives in the collection of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania is really, to use a handy phrase, "Outside their mission statement." Preservation, not operation, is the mission of the museum.
That being said, it's a great place to visit, trust me! I've been there!
And if you want live steam, the Strasburg Railroad is right across the street!
You remember correctly what the 's' refers to.
PRR could have funny ways of standardizing on its way to being the 'standard railroad of the world' (people tend to forget that 'standard' used to be the thing inspiring the Roman legions to be first into battle, a terrible thing to corrupt into something that implies 'normal'!) One such was that the drawings for unsuperheated engines were retained and therefore so were any distinctions with superheated versions. Of course in no more than a few years every operating E6 and K4 was superheated... but the history of both classes included saturated operation, so PRR preserved exactitude.
The M1 was of course always superheated, so you never see any reference to a "M1s" -- same with K5 Pacifics (and of course any newer power specifically including the E8 Atlantics).
Work on 1361 remains ongoing, although I suspect largely suspended during the COVID-19 kerfuffle; the great unsolved question (about certain interesting aspects of the legacy boiler structure) was solved when Levin, Moorman et al. got involved (I believe the current plan is all-new welded firebox 'to code' which should be easily adequate for 205psi). This is intentionally being done 'under the radar' and particularly without giving any 'railfan guarantees' about when work will be done -- if you are concerned, you should be looking into volunteering treasure or time to help the effort along.
The issue with the 'other' K4 is currently 'moot' because its museum's management is concerned with preserving 'historic fabric' (so operation would have to be at dramatically reduced pressure, with terrific heroic care to limit thermal cycling or expansion issues, with all sorts of risks and even perils in actual running). Even if there were no insurance or access concerns this leaves it out of 'restoration to operation' consideration. While of course we can never say 'never' with a straight face, the fact that there are two extant locomotives makes the decision to keep one 'originally preserved' much simpler and, I' argue, correct (i.e. more important than being able to run doubleheader shows largely for nonpaying railfans.)
Note that this doesn't imply 'no restoration to operable condition' in other respects. It is my understanding that a great deal if the work on Atlantic 460 was not merely cosmetic, even though that engine is as iconic as Mallard and as unlikely ever to be subjected to the risks of updating and operation.
(A fun question that may set multiple cats among the pigeons is "where do you put the museum discussion of the problems with K4 boilers". I would argue that both museum organizations ought to have one... but that they should be different in scope and nature. 1737's would be more technical, about how PRR essentially cut corners to stay within the letter of the boiler law with working power even as it became less and less cost-effective, and what options would have been needed to make a safe and modern engine by modern standards. 1361's needs to include a synopsis of the whole unfortunate history of throwing money at it and having to endure the pains subsequently incurred from being a political football of sorts, but that's essentially background for showing about what was fixed and what wasn't in making excursion-capable power out of 1361, complete with old-firebox sections (showing plate thinning and staybolts-related damage both in sectioned firebox and close-up displays) and covering the discussions of various ways to resolve historic-preservation' vs. living and breathing operation as museum priorities.)
Thanks, Flint. That makes sense.
Does anyone have any inside info on the state of the restoration of the 1361? Man, I'd love to see her run! (I assume the one in the museum in Strasburg will never run again.)
If I recall correctly the "s" stands for "superheated."
Since the first K4's hit the PRR in 1914 and superheating was a well-established concept by that time I think they were all officially K4s'. The term "K4" may just have been a term of convenience, or "shorthand," if you will, both then and now.
Is/was there any such thing as a just plain K4? Or were they all designated K4s.
And what does the "s" stand for? (If you say "steam," I'll be skeptical ... )
Still in training.
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